[jasride]

rough outline:

Kids coming back from a party beat passing Hispanic to death.

Local law try and cover up story. A couple officers personally know
the two boys linked to the killing.

Welcome to the coal region.


http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2009/12/shenandoah_remains_clouded_wit.html

 

[jonKranked]

As fvcked up as the situation is - and I'm glad the people responsible for this horrible act and those that tried to cover it up are going to have to face justice - I can only muster so much sympathy for the victim since he was an illegal. Race has nothing to do with it. Guy could've been English, German, Japanese, French, whatever.

 

[jasride]

As fvcked up as the situation is - and I'm glad the people responsible for this horrible act and those that tried to cover it up are going to have to face justice - I can only muster so much sympathy for the victim since he was an illegal. Race has nothing to do with it. Guy could've been English, German, Japanese, French, whatever.

I know what you mean! But even if he was legal, it still would have happened.

 

[goofy]

Since I'm from a town not to far from where this happened I've been following this. First of all I'm not shocked the area is backwards when it comes to race. 2nd the area has seen an increase in it's population mostly from people leaving Philadelphia and most of them are Hispanic, most of these people are good people but groups like MS13 have moved in since it's not to far from 2 major interstates (Hazleton Pa. has seen the worse of this since it's located at the intersection of I80 and I81). 3rd when you combine the 2 you get the idiots like these cops and kids doing crap like this.

Also if you know anything about corruption in Pa. you'll know that soon they won't have a government left once the FBI gets done.

Edit: The Police Chief was denied bail, the judges reason, he's a menace to society.

 

[sanjuro]

As fvcked up as the situation is - and I'm glad the people responsible for this horrible act and those that tried to cover it up are going to have to face justice - I can only muster so much sympathy for the victim since he was an illegal. Race has nothing to do with it. Guy could've been English, German, Japanese, French, whatever.

Well, that might be true, I think it does lead to questions about racial tolerance.

That would be like saying homophobia had nothing to do with Matthew Sheppard.

 

[jasride]

Well, that might be true, I think it does lead to questions about racial tolerance.

The whole area is about racial tension. Having gone through the school system from 7th grade right on through graduating I can tell you racism is alive and well. But it's good to see "some" of these locals not supporting the event that took place.

 

[jonKranked]

Well, that might be true, I think it does lead to questions about racial tolerance.

That would be like saying homophobia had nothing to do with Matthew Sheppard.

Sorry, I just realized I wasn't clear enough in my comment.

Race obviously played a part in the crime.

When I said "race had nothing to do with it" - I meant in reference to the fact that he was an illegal alien from Mexico, and my own personal opinions on illegal immigration. Illegal immigrant is still illegal immigrant, regardless of where you came from.

 

[sanjuro]

What if he overstayed his student visa? Or married to an American but hadn't completed his green card application.

I know several illegals from Europe, as well as from South of the Border. While they may be a difference in language skills, education, culture, and skin color, they are almost all in the same boat. Except that no one suspects that the Euros are here illegally by the way they look.

This wasn't a death in a INS raid or a DHS facility, but a couple of teenagers who beat to death a single illegal who was targeted because of the way he looked.

 

[X3pilot]

As a native southerner that lives in Allentown, PA, I tell people that ask about the hicks and rednecks down there and I send them due west in PA. Throw a good mix of hillbilly into the redneck and you have that region.

Coal people don't just hate Mexicans, they hate everybody that's not from that part of PA.

 

[jonKranked]

What if he overstayed his student visa? Or married to an American but hadn't completed his green card application.

excuses excuses....

Except that no one suspects that the Euros are here illegally by the way they look.

Exactly the problem (unrelated to this particular incidence, but yes, still a problem. I find myself wondering if "illegal immigrant" is starting to become just a PC term for "hispanic").

This wasn't a death in a INS raid or a DHS facility, but a couple of teenagers who beat to death a single illegal who was targeted because of the way he looked.

And? doesn't change the fact that he was illegally in this country.

 

[goofy]

This wasn't a death in a INS raid or a DHS facility, but a couple of teenagers who beat to death a single illegal who was targeted because of the way he looked.

Right on to the punks that did this, it didn't matter that he was an illegal or not they probably didn't even know that he was.

This is an area that about 15 years ago had a problem with skin heads and the State Police sent a black undercover officer into the area just to see is what they were hearing was true and the cop was approached by a group of idiots, he than ID himself as a cop and at that point they jumped him.

 

[sanjuro]

And? doesn't change the fact that he was illegally in this country.

I am very much for stopping illegal immigration, specifically over the Mexican border. More fences, more patrols, I'm ok with that.

You know the joke that if you need some manual labor done, go down to the Home Depot and hire a guy. Those men do a hard day's labor with no benefits. I don't have a problem with them.

But at some point, we need to address the illegals already here, and I don't mean ship 'em back.

I also think we need to deal with the drug problem which creates a pipeline between Mexico and the US, which ultimately is due to economic inequality.

It would be funny if me and a couple of friends went down to the Mission to beat the crap out of illegals. What would happen is about 50 Mexicans chasing us out of the Mission.

 

[syadasti]

And? doesn't change the fact that he was illegally in this country.

And that doesn't change the fact that these kids are just as bad/cold blooded as murderers on death row and they deserve the same treatment.

Its like some right-wing jackass (like Bill O'Reilly ) getting worked up about a drunk driver who happens to be an illegal. There is absolutely nothing unique about that situation but its a good way to pass off your racist agenda.

That population has a similar number of incidents as legals from similar socioeconomic classes - the accident is no better or worse just because of person's legal status in the country.

 

[goofy]

The whole area is about racial tension. Having gone through the school system from 7th grade right on through graduating I can tell you racism is alive and well. But it's good to see "some" of these locals not supporting the event that took place.

Where in Pa. are you in?
I'm from Mt. Carmel but left 10 years ago.

 

[sanjuro]

This does remind me of the political divide in Pennsylvania, that you have Philly on one side, Pittsburgh on the other, and Birmingham, Alabama in the middle.

 

[jonKranked]

And that doesn't change the fact that these kids are just as bad/cold blooded as murderers on death row and they deserve the same treatment.

I absolutely agree. However, as the case stands, the widespread issue of illegal immigration compounds the situation. I don't know whether or not his assailants were aware of his immigration status. He very well may have been fully naturalized, but I'd be willing to be that they (the assailants) didn't care, and probably viewed him (the victim) as an illegal regardless (in this case it happened to be true). The mindset that Hispanic descent = illegal immigrant has obviously become a dangerous one, as this case illustrates.

The reason I don't feel a ton of pity for the victim is because I highly doubt that he didn't know he was here illegally. There are certain risks associated with that (again, illustrated by this case), but that should only be things like deportation, etc. Not getting beaten to death by a bunch of ignorant racist a--holes.

 

[goofy]

This does remind me of the political divide in Pennsylvania, that you have Philly on one side, Pittsburgh on the other, and Birmingham, Alabama in the middle.

If you know anybody from Pittsburgh you might hope they don't see this since Pittsburgh fixes their city and Philly just tries to get all the interstates turned into toll roads to fix theirs.

 

[jonKranked]

This does remind me of the political divide in Pennsylvania, that you have Philly on one side, Pittsburgh on the other, and Birmingham, Alabama in the middle.

Its crazy how that is. I've lived in the greater Philly metro area, and I grew up outside of Pittsburgh. I've spent PLENTY of time in the middle to know just how backwoods Pennsyltucky can get.

 

[jonKranked]

If you know anybody from Pittsburgh you might hope they don't see this since Pittsburgh fixes their city and Philly just tries to get all the interstates turned into toll roads to fix theirs.

Too late! but its ok. I know how hick my homestate is.

 

[syadasti]

The reason I don't feel a ton of pity for the victim is because I highly doubt that he didn't know he was here illegally. There are certain risks associated with that (again, illustrated by this case), but that should only be things like deportation, etc. Not getting beaten to death by a bunch of ignorant racist a--holes.

The point still stands - nobody is entitled to assault someone just because they are illegals even if they are law enforcement. It isn't justification for anything under any circumstances but it does enable prosecutors to tack another point on these people's wrap sheets.

Hispanics are the largest minority group in America now.

 

[goofy]

Too late! but its ok. I know how hick my homestate is.

Trust me i know exactly what you're saying.

The thing that pisses me off the most about this is I'm from about 30 minutes from where this happened and I know alot of people like this.

 

[Ciaran]

The reason I don't feel a ton of pity for the victim is because I highly doubt that he didn't know he was here illegally. There are certain risks associated with that (again, illustrated by this case), but that should only be things like deportation, etc. Not getting beaten to death by a bunch of ignorant racist a--holes.

That statement right there makes you an (and I quote), "ignorant racist a--hole(s)"

The immigration status has no relevence to the crime committed, nor should it have any bearing on how much pity you feel for a human being.

 

[jonKranked]

The immigration status has no relevence to the crime committed

Do you think it played a role in the mentality of his assailants? I'd be willing to bet yes.


And don't think for a second that I would pity the victim if it was some random white guy who got beat down either.

 

[jonKranked]

Something that occurred to me that I figure I should fill you guys in on, since some of you have probably never been to these parts of Pa.

It's called the Aryan Nation. One of its main branches is in PA. And these hick parts of PA are known for either having chapters of the AN, or being sympathetic towards it. They are also known for not being too fond of illegal immigrants, and they make this known. It honestly would not surprise me at all if it comes to light that some of these kids or the cops that covered it up have ties to the AN.

I'm not saying that this is right, or that I agree with it, that's just the way it is.


edit: FWIW, the FBI considers the AN to be a terrorist organization.

 

[X3pilot]

Denied bail on the Federal charges.. link

Brandon Piekarsky, 18, and Derrick Donchak, 19, were charged in the July 2008 beating death of 25-year-old Luis Ramirez in Shenandoah, Schuylkill County. A separate indictment charges three police officers with obstructing the investigation into Ramirez's death.

The confrontation began when a half-dozen high school football players were headed home from a block party in Shenandoah. They came across Ramirez and his 15-year-old girlfriend in a park and an argument broke out, followed by a melee.

Like Jon, not a justification, but an explanation to the mindset in these areas.

 

[jasride]

The confrontation began when a half-dozen high school football players were headed home from a block party in Shenandoah.

There's a block party every other weekend through out the summer in these coal towns. .50 cent genny lights and 1.00 dollar high balls are common place for teens and polka dancing seniors alike!

 

[jonKranked]

There's a block party every other weekend through out the summer in these coal towns. .50 cent genny lights and 1.00 dollar high balls are common place for teens and polka dancing seniors alike!

But they still get blacked out drunk on a nightly basis.

 

[jasride]

But they still get blacked out drunk on a nightly basis.

Yes, no doubt! Im just trying to convey what the atmosphere of one of those "block parties" is all about.

 

[goofy]

Something that occurred to me that I figure I should fill you guys in on, since some of you have probably never been to these parts of Pa.

It's called the Aryan Nation. One of its main branches is in PA. And these hick parts of PA are known for either having chapters of the AN, or being sympathetic towards it. They are also known for not being too fond of illegal immigrants, and they make this known. It honestly would not surprise me at all if it comes to light that some of these kids or the cops that covered it up have ties to the AN.

I'm not saying that this is right, or that I agree with it, that's just the way it is.


edit: FWIW, the FBI considers the AN to be a terrorist organization.

The Aryan Nation is more in the western part of Pa. and not that much in this part of Pa. They started to get active in the area but the cops put a stop to it about 15 years ago (see previous post). It was getting bad but when the cops hit them they hit them hard and they haven't been able to get going again. The area has seen a lot of gang activity but more with MS13 and other gangs from the Philly area, if the AN would really try to start up in the area now it would have an easier time then 15 years ago but they have stayed out, mostly I think because the people in the area like their racism below the radar not open like the AN is. Also another reason possibly is the younger generation (the group that AN recruits) is more tolerant than it is in western Pa.

 

[jonKranked]

Point is, racism is pretty rampant in PA.


Also, just a technical thing, Aryan nation is more of a north central PA organization. I thought their headquarters was in Potter County?

 

[Silver]

Do you think it played a role in the mentality of his assailants? I'd be willing to bet yes.

I'd guess no, since the default assumption is that everyone who might look Mexican is an illegal...

 

[goofy]

Actually Punxsutawney Pa. had a mayor that was KKK and other counties in that area are very big in the KKK and AN. Also Potter County and Schuylkill County aren't that close together.

But you are correct with the statement that racism is a large part of small town Pa. But this part of the coal region is split by I81 and they really keep the racism low key so it won't hurt business but about every 10 years it makes an appearance in the national news.

FYI now that I think about it the attack on the cop might have been closer to 10 years than 15 years but to many concussions have screwed with my memory of dates.

 

[Spahman]

rednecks :\

 

[manimal]

I find myself wondering if "illegal immigrant" is starting to become just a PC term for "hispanic").

no, the actual PC term for "illegal alien" is now "undocumented immigrant" because groups like La Raza (think NAACP of hispanics..but with major gang ties) have lobbied that "illegal" is an unfair term

 

[manimal]

The point still stands - nobody is entitled to assault someone just because they are illegals even if they are law enforcement. It isn't justification for anything under any circumstances but it does enable prosecutors to tack another point on these people's wrap sheets.

Hispanics are the largest minority group in America now.

very true.

on a personal observation note: i've found that most illegal immigrants are far more respectful and apologetic than the average natural born citizen. [to law enforcement] in my city we have finally gotten the hispanic community to trust law enforcement in that it's ok to report crimes to the police and that they aren't going to be deported for being the victim of a crime.

 

[jonKranked]

no, the actual PC term for "illegal alien" is now "undocumented immigrant" because groups like La Raza (think NAACP of hispanics..but with major gang ties) have lobbied that "illegal" is an unfair term

thanks for the clarification. edit: unfair or not, it is factual.

very true.

on a personal observation note: i've found that most illegal immigrants are far more respectful and apologetic than the average natural born citizen. [to law enforcement] in my city we have finally gotten the hispanic community to trust law enforcement in that it's ok to report crimes to the police and that they aren't going to be deported for being the victim of a crime.

I'm not doubting this at all, but I have personally had encounters with immigrants who are very vocal and have no hesitations declaring that they are immigrants, and how much they absolutely despise this country. Once or twice I've asked them why they're still here if they hate it so much. The only coherent and logical answer I've received is that because they can earn a better living here than in their home country.

 

[manimal]

thanks for the clarification. edit: unfair or not, it is factual.



I'm not doubting this at all, but I have personally had encounters with immigrants who are very vocal and have no hesitations declaring that they are immigrants, and how much they absolutely despise this country. Once or twice I've asked them why they're still here if they hate it so much. The only coherent and logical answer I've received is that because they can earn a better living here than in their home country.

i was agreeing with you jon....

the reason i mentioned the part about the polite encounters is because my ability to get the ball rolling towards ICE is a predominant factor in attitude.

 

[sanjuro]

I'm not doubting this at all, but I have personally had encounters with immigrants who are very vocal and have no hesitations declaring that they are immigrants, and how much they absolutely despise this country.

They hate Amerika?!?!? We should beat the crap out of them!!!

 

[MikeD]

thanks for the clarification. edit: unfair or not, it is factual.



I'm not doubting this at all, but I have personally had encounters with immigrants who are very vocal and have no hesitations declaring that they are immigrants, and how much they absolutely despise this country. Once or twice I've asked them why they're still here if they hate it so much. The only coherent and logical answer I've received is that because they can earn a better living here than in their home country.

There are lots of natural-born Americans like that, too.

 

[bwolmarans]

I am very surprised the cops actually got busted.
Put it this way: For every little nest of evil cops that does get busted how many do you think are getting away with it?