[ramstein-dh]

Hello

I have my eye on a dark cycles scarab DH frame.
Does anybody have any views on how they ride and handle.
Also are parts available , like pivot and linkages.
Would it be a good investment for a long term DH bike.
As this will be my only bike until is breaks , if it ever does.
I love these frame and 4130 cromo frames.

Any help would be good.

Thanks for your time

Jason

 

[xy9ine]

the company that built them is still about; bits *shouldn't* be a problem. people i've talked to that had them (i seriously looked into getting one back in '06) seemed to like them. geometry is dated by current standards however (15" bb, 66.5* ha); i'd personally go with something more modern if you're thinking longterm.

i'd be all over a katipo if i was looking for a steel dh rig.

 

[ramstein-dh]

the company that built them is still about; bits *shouldn't* be a problem. people i've talked to that had them (i seriously looked into getting one back in '06) seemed to like them. geometry is dated by current standards however (15" bb, 66.5* ha); i'd personally go with something more modern if you're thinking longterm.

i'd be all over a katipo if i was looking for a steel dh rig.

Yeah thanks for the info buddy , well the guy wants £300.00 for it, as i can't afford new anyway's.

Katipo are very nice bike

 

[w00dy]

Everyone I've run into with one has raved about it. Kind of a cult bike. Most of the hardware is off the shelf. Should be easy to maintain. Steel is easy to patch up if something does go wrong. I say go for it.

 

[norbar]

Yeah thanks for the info buddy , well the guy wants £300.00 for it, as i can't afford new anyway's.

Katipo are very nice bike

For 300 GBP it's a great deal if that includes a shock. Get that irish guy (or do it yourself) to make you offset shock hardware to slacken/lower the bike and it should be nice. The rear stays are very long for a high pivot but at that price I doubt you will find anything better. Also 11.8lbs with shock isn't that heavy.

 

[miuan]

You can always try to get a 8.5" shock if the current HA/BB with 8.75" shock seems dated. What you can't change is, however, how short the front triangle is, and the massive CS length. If you're taller than average, you may quite often smash your knees on the handlebar or fork stanchions. Good luck with the build!

 

[ramstein-dh]

You can always try to get a 8.5" shock if the current HA/BB with 8.75" shock seems dated. What you can't change is, however, how short the front triangle is, and the massive CS length. If you're taller than average, you may quite often smash your knees on the handlebar or fork stanchions. Good luck with the build!

Thanks for the info , well i'm 5ft 11 and Avalanche MTN-8 are going on it.
Also comes with a 5th element shock , which i might send to Craig at avalanche for their internals to be put in
Unless a 241mm shock would fit ok.
It is black at the momment and getting it power coated sky blue.
The guy at Dark just got back to me with a list of parts they have so all good.
I did have a keewee cromo 8 but sold it before i could build it to get this , as you can't get parts for the keewee anymore , was this a wise choice?

Also i don't understand , what offset shock bushings are , and whom makes these?

cheers

Jason

 

[norbar]

Why would you wanted a longer shock? More travel from a longer shock is worse actually.


btw. Please stop building a tank. That whole hardcore heavy bike thing is silly. Especially in the UK.

 

[ramstein-dh]

Why would you wanted a longer shock? More travel from a longer shock is worse actually.


btw. Please stop building a tank. That whole hardcore heavy bike thing is silly. Especially in the UK.

Yeah maybe , but boxxers are crap , and aluminium is also crap.
Also i like heavy.

 

[norbar]

Yeah maybe , but boxxers are crap , and aluminium is also crap.
Also i like heavy.

So you will go with 100% steel bike? If you don't like boxxers you can go boxxers + avy chart, fox, manitou, marz. Millions of options.

btw. Do you also like slow? Because after certain weight i can assure you your bike will slow you down. We have one hardcore tank driver on our local scene and in some turns he simply has problems with turning when it gets tighter. Not that's a suprise. Just simple physics.

 

[ramstein-dh]

So you will go with 100% steel bike? If you don't like boxxers you can go boxxers + avy chart, fox, manitou, marz. Millions of options.

btw. Do you also like slow? Because after certain weight i can assure you your bike will slow you down. We have one hardcore tank driver on our local scene and in some turns he simply has problems with turning when it gets tighter. Not that's a suprise. Just simple physics.

Yeah very good point you have there buddy.
I already have the MTN-8 though.
I'm not planing on racing , but what you say does make allot of sense.
I just don't trust aluminium with my body weight.
Unless i get the Scarab and sell the MTN-8 , then buy 888 or something like that , with a load of light parts.

 

[norbar]

That aluminium and body part is bs. It made sense 15 years ago but not now. My father made the same mistake and has build a 25kg scream 5 years ago even though he rides somewhere between enduro and FR. A properly designed and build alu bike with decent parts will take your weight unless you are a superheavyweight.

Also I understand you already bought it and looking for cheaper solutions but really the times when a bike had to be brick heavy to be solid are long gone. I'm pretty sure the WC pros trash their bikes much more than you do. Some of them are quite big too and most of their bikes are in the 16-19kg range

 

[ramstein-dh]

That aluminium and body part is bs. It made sense 15 years ago but not now. My father made the same mistake and has build a 25kg scream 5 years ago even though he rides somewhere between enduro and FR. A properly designed and build alu bike with decent parts will take your weight unless you are a superheavyweight.

Also I understand you already bought it and looking for cheaper solutions but really the times when a bike had to be brick heavy to be solid are long gone. I'm pretty sure the WC pros trash their bikes much more than you do. Some of them are quite big too and most of their bikes are in the 16-19kg range

HMMMM! Well i'm 18 stone , also do you mean the Banshee Scream is a bad idea or bad frame?
I know somebody whom has one for sale with no shock for £200.00?
Just can't afford more stuff unless i sell my exsisting parts.
Surley i can get a nice second hand frame for around £350.00

 

[norbar]

HMMMM! Well i'm 18 stone , also do you mean the Banshee Scream is a bad idea or bad frame?
I know somebody whom has one for sale with no shock for £200.00?
Just can't afford more stuff unless i sell my exsisting parts.
Surley i can get a nice second hand frame for around £350.00

It's an outdated frame with mediecore suspension, crappy geo and unessecary weight. Dark Cycles is imho better than the scream thanks to the suspension. Not to mention my father currently runs an 18kg rig, no problems even at his weight

As for 18 stone - Still bs. I doubt that riders like Kyle Strait or Rennie are that far from 15-16stone and they still probably ride MUCH harder on their bikes than you. You just need to avoid overly light parts, not go super heavy. Seriously it's not 2001.
Not to mention - I have a friend who weights the same as you - he rides a 08 giant glory. Stock setup. It's been 2 years and he still has no problems. **** I've got a 100kg friend who rides a lapierre spicy on downhill trails but he is smooth.
Imho older glories, cove shockers and maybe 07-09 demos are the way to go for you. Glory would be the easiest choice as they can be had for dirt cheap and are much better bikes geo and susp wise than the monsters you think about.
If you want a cheap fork that could take your weight - look a 05-07 888 marz. For better damping look for the r/rc/rc2/rc2x 888s

 

[ramstein-dh]

It's an outdated frame with mediecore suspension, crappy geo and unessecary weight. Dark Cycles is imho better than the scream thanks to the suspension. Not to mention my father currently runs an 18kg rig, no problems even at his weight

As for 18 stone - Still bs. I doubt that riders like Kyle Strait or Rennie are that far from 15-16stone and they still probably ride MUCH harder on their bikes than you. You just need to avoid overly light parts, not go super heavy. Seriously it's not 2001.
Not to mention - I have a friend who weights the same as you - he rides a 08 giant glory. Stock setup. It's been 2 years and he still has no problems. **** I've got a 100kg friend who rides a lapierre spicy on downhill trails but he is smooth.
Imho older glories, cove shockers and maybe 07-09 demos are the way to go for you. Glory would be the easiest choice as they can be had for dirt cheap and are much better bikes geo and susp wise than the monsters you think about.
If you want a cheap fork that could take your weight - look a 05-07 888 marz. For better damping look for the r/rc/rc2/rc2x 888s

Some very good advice there , thanks allot.
I will look at a glory i think as the demo's seem to have cracking issues , i was just having a look at an RB Dragster , but Glory may be they way forward.
And some 888 Rc with firm springs.

Thanks again buddy

Jason

 

[no skid marks]

That aluminium and body part is bs. It made sense 15 years ago but not now. My father made the same mistake and has build a 25kg scream 5 years ago even though he rides somewhere between enduro and FR. A properly designed and build alu bike with decent parts will take your weight unless you are a superheavyweight.A properly made steel bike will last longer. Ally suffers far greater than steel from fatigue. Yes ally bikes may take the hits, but not for as long. The only reason to use ally is for using CNC parts in a frame. Otherwise, total marketing BS IMO.

Also I understand you already bought it and looking for cheaper solutions but really the times when a bike had to be brick heavy to be solid are long gone. I'm pretty sure the WC pros trash their bikes much more than you do. Some of them are quite big too and most of their bikes are in the 16-19kg range

I'm pretty sure they crack and also get new frames a lot more often than you think.

I
As for 18 stone - Still bs. I doubt that riders like Kyle Strait or Rennie are that far from 15-16stone and they still probably ride MUCH harder on their bikes than you. You just need to avoid overly light parts, not go super heavy. Seriously it's not 2001.
Imho older glories, cove shockers and maybe 07-09 demos are the way to go for you. Glory would be the easiest choice as they can be had for dirt cheap and are much better bikes geo and susp wise than the monsters you think about.True, an older Glory etc would be a better pick for a DH bike, heavy also but.
Or a BMW Race Link with a new link to get geo current, or get Avy to reduce the shock travel.
If you want a cheap fork that could take your weight - look a 05-07 888 marz. For better damping look for the r/rc/rc2/rc2x 888s

888s a good safe bet, but if you'r used to chucking the Avy abou, just keep it. If your not racing, you'll have more fun on going fast on the Avy, even if going slower IMO.

 

[norbar]

I'm pretty sure they crack and also get new frames a lot more often than you think.

888s a good safe bet, but if you'r used to chucking the Avy abou, just keep it. If your not racing, you'll have more fun on going fast on the Avy, even if going slower IMO.

I often agree with you but please. Properly made alu bike will not crack. You make it out as an alu bike = catastropic failure and that's just plain wrong. Yes cro-mo takes abuse better but besides katipo (which he wont find at that price) what steel bikes have reasonable geo and suspension? He can get a used glory for 300-450GBP.

As for cracking - what cracks?


Also - I have nothing against burly parts but MTN-8 is just silly. You don't need that kind of weight on a dh bike, period.

 

[HardtailHack]

Also - I have nothing against burly parts but MTN-8 is just silly. You don't need that kind of weight on a dh bike, period.

Running an MT-8 isn't much different to running an old Glory frame, they are both freakin heavy and for no good reason, sure the old Glory's don't crack but neither did a lot of lighter frames.

It looks like there will be two angleset type headsets that will fit a 1-1/8" headtube in the near future so the Dark frame with a new headset and maybe a slightly shorter shock could be a great bike for the coin.

 

[norbar]

Running an MT-8 isn't much different to running an old Glory frame, they are both freakin heavy and for no good reason, sure the old Glory's don't crack but neither did a lot of lighter frames.

It looks like there will be two angleset type headsets that will fit a 1-1/8" headtube in the near future so the Dark frame with a new headset and maybe a slightly shorter shock could be a great bike for the coin.

I suggested the glory for it's price Also glory is around 1kg heavier than modern frames not 3kg like the MTN is over 07 888 or 4kg over boxxer. You can get a lighter tough frame but not for in that budget he operates in.

 

[ramstein-dh]

Hello

Thanks for all the advice , on cracking i meant the demo 8 frames , don't the swing arms and shock linkage's crack?
Also the MTN-8 will not use a normal headset.
It has a motorbike style headset , the bearing is pressed onto the lower crown , and you have 2 bearing cups which sit flush with the frame , then you stack shims on the top to fine tune the amount of preasure on the bearings.
Heavy forks don't really bother me as i have had monster t for ever , and i did think boxxers were way too light and they feel terrible compaired to marzocchi.

Maximum i could go is £400.00 , as the scarab is £300.00 then £50.00 for blasting and fresh powder coat , then i would have to replace my Aireal 135mm x 12mm hub with a 150mm x 12mm hub.
If i can't sell the rear hub i reckon £50.00 would get me a second hand hub.
I was looking at an orange 222 but they are really old 2001 i think and they are prone to cracking.

Thanks again

Jason

 

[norbar]

Oranges are, Demos did crack but the 1st gen up to 06 or 07 if I remember right. After that they were fine. Glories are 150mm wide in the rear but now it's doable to get a hub like that cheap - superstar if new, used is also an option.
Still the Scarab is a quite nice bike if you find a way to modify the geo a bit. Offset shock hardware is a good idea because it can be done cheap. Ask about it either on southerndownill or irish dh forums. Someone there made it. It wont be that much of a change but still you will feel it.

 

[no skid marks]

I often agree with you but please. Properly made alu bike will not crack. You make it out as an alu bike = catastropic failure and that's just plain wrong. Yes cro-mo takes abuse better but besides katipo (which he wont find at that price) what steel bikes have reasonable geo and suspension? He can get a used glory for 300-450GBP.

As for cracking - what cracks?


Also - I have nothing against burly parts but MTN-8 is just silly. You don't need that kind of weight on a dh bike, period.

You were making out ally frames will outlast steel of the same build quality, and that because you can't tell the pros crack bikes, and or get new ones often that they don't. They do. Some brands often, some rarely I'm sure. But still.
Anything can be made poorly.
But as a general rule, old ally bikes will crack more than old steel bikes. Even if they're made heavy as, and then you might aswell buy steel.

 

[ramstein-dh]

Hello

Just realised that the glory are 1.5 headtube and i need 1.1/8"
Also yeah old ally frames tend to show the abuse.
This scarab was bought in 2007 so not amazingly old.
And the guy weights like 11 stone.

So thanks everyone i have decided to go with the Scarab and i will try and get offset bushings also.

Thanks for the advice everyone

Jason

 

[KavuRider]

Tank bikes can be a lot of fun. I've owned a few, including the Scream and a few Karpiels. Monster T's, Avalanche shocks, all that. Its good fun.

But then you ride a modern DH rig, with modern angles, and realize that they are just superior.

Also, you won't be trashing a new frame that easily. Unless you're a hack rider. I am a hack rider and I had a 2008 Glory, smashed that bike good, didn't even blink.

 

[norbar]

You were making out ally frames will outlast steel of the same build quality, and that because you can't tell the pros crack bikes, and or get new ones often that they don't. They do. Some brands often, some rarely I'm sure. But still.
Anything can be made poorly.
But as a general rule, old ally bikes will crack more than old steel bikes. Even if they're made heavy as, and then you might aswell buy steel.

Stop being a steel fanboy and read what I wrote. I just suggested him he can get a better alu frame. It doesn't mean more durable but better in terms of geo and suspension THAT CAN STILL NOT CRACK.
You make it seem as all alu bikes of 2+ years will crack and steel is more important than proper geo. It's not and a 2-3 year old glory or demo will hold him fine.

Also please do not assume what I know. I realise pros crack their frames but some of them dont. You on the other hand assume that they do. So we are kinda even.

 

[no skid marks]

Stop being a steel fanboy and read what I wrote. I just suggested him he can get a better alu frame. It doesn't mean more durable but better in terms of geo and suspension THAT CAN STILL NOT CRACK.
You make it seem as all alu bikes of 2+ years will crack and steel is more important than proper geo. It's not and a 2-3 year old glory or demo will hold him fine.

Also please do not assume what I know. I realise pros crack their frames but some of them dont. You on the other hand assume that they do. So we are kinda even.

Stop expressing what I'm saying with your words to make it sound like I'm wrong.
I agreed an old Glory or whatever would be good.
Reread what I wrote. Stop derailing this thread.
OP, just get an old glory, Sunday whatever is strong.
If the Dark Cycle has longer than 17" stays, added to the steeper head angle, it'll have crap rear traction.

 

[ramstein-dh]

Stop expressing what I'm saying with your words to make it sound like I'm wrong.
I agreed an old Glory or whatever would be good.
Reread what I wrote. Stop derailing this thread.
OP, just get an old glory, Sunday whatever is strong.
If the Dark Cycle has longer than 17" stays, added to the steeper head angle, it'll have crap rear traction.

Thanks again for all the info ,
well here is what dark say.

seatpost Ø: 30.0mm
wheelbase: 45.2"
rear hub: 150 x 12mm
chainstay: 17.8"
BB height: 15.0"
max rear tire: 3.0"
head angle: 66.5°
top tube: 23.76"
headset Ø: 1.125"
seat angle: 54°
head tube: 4.5"
pivot bearings: sealed catridge
BB shell: 73mm
rear wheel travel: 8.5"
shock stroke: 2.75"
shock length eye to eye: 8.75"
weight incl. shock: 11.8lbs

Also a glory is out of the picture due to the headtube being 1.5" and i'm keeping the MTN-8 so need a 1.1/8" headtube , so a Demo 8 or the scarab i supose , or an RB Dragster.

Thanks again

Jason

 

[HardtailHack]

Thanks again for all the info ,
well here is what dark say.

seatpost Ø: 30.0mm
wheelbase: 45.2"
rear hub: 150 x 12mm
chainstay: 17.8"
BB height: 15.0"
max rear tire: 3.0"
head angle: 66.5°
top tube: 23.76"
headset Ø: 1.125"
seat angle: 54°
head tube: 4.5"
pivot bearings: sealed catridge
BB shell: 73mm
rear wheel travel: 8.5"
shock stroke: 2.75"
shock length eye to eye: 8.75"
weight incl. shock: 11.8lbs

Also a glory is out of the picture due to the headtube being 1.5" and i'm keeping the MTN-8 so need a 1.1/8" headtube , so a Demo 8 or the scarab i supose , or an RB Dragster.

Thanks again

Jason

Holy Jesus, 15" BB height, how much do these off centre dodads drop the BB by?
Also you can use a 1-1/8" fork in a 1.5" headtube frame, you just have to run a reducer headset.

 

[ramstein-dh]

Holy Jesus, 15" BB height, how much do these off centre dodads drop the BB by?
Also you can use a 1-1/8" fork in a 1.5" headtube frame, you just have to run a reducer headset.

Yeah that's what i'm saying the Avalanche MTN-8 i have , use a motorbike headset , with cone bearing pressed onto the lower crown.
I could never use a normal headset unless i got a special one made.

 

[HardtailHack]

Yeah that's what i'm saying the Avalanche MTN-8 i have , use a motorbike headset , with cone bearing pressed onto the lower crown.
I could never use a normal headset unless i got a special one made.

Ahh OK sorry that went straight over my head.

 

[no skid marks]

Yeah that's what i'm saying the Avalanche MTN-8 i have , use a motorbike headset , with cone bearing pressed onto the lower crown.
I could never use a normal headset unless i got a special one made.

If it presses into a 1 1/8th frame, you can press it into a 1 1/8th reducer.
I wouldn't get the Dark if I were you. Beautiful bike, but chainstay is too long, head angle too steep, and BB too high.
Balfa BB7 would be a better cheap bike IMO.

 

[ramstein-dh]

If it presses into a 1 1/8th frame, you can press it into a 1 1/8th reducer.
I wouldn't get the Dark if I were you. Beautiful bike, but chainstay is too long, head angle too steep, and BB too high.
Balfa BB7 would be a better cheap bike IMO.

Are you certain i could push a 1.1/8" head cups into a reducer?
Yeah i do like the balfa but people whom have them often keep them as they are that good.
There is one on pinkbike for £400.00 but he snapped the fixed rear hanger and had it re-welded so not going to bother with that.
I was looking at the marin Quake but i think they are more a freeride frame.
Or i could always give the guy whom bought my keewee a refund as i have not sent it yet until morning.

 

[norbar]

I see you browse through pinkbike buy and sell.
Maybe this one will be good:
http://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/805349/
That's euros so it should be close to 400GBP.

If you want to pickup the frame youself:
http://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/806938/
450GBP for a glory with a ti spring. The one from before giant went with the ugly blue painscheme

 

[big-ted]

So, did you decide you didn't want a Scarab? A friend of mine has a MINT condition orange one for sale, complete with 2009 Boxxer team which has also been very well looked after. I've forwarded him this thread.

FYI, I'm also good friends with the guy that designed the Scarab. Know that they had ZERO failures of the stock production frames and, as mentioned above, steel wont fatigue nearly as much as aluminum so a frame in one piece with no cracks is good to go for a long time.

 

[norbar]

FYI, I'm also good friends with the guy that designed the Scarab. Know that they had ZERO failures of the stock production frames and, as mentioned above, steel wont fatigue nearly as much as aluminum so a frame in one piece with no cracks is good to go for a long time.

Why won't they change the geo? The bike is fairly light for a steel bike, the susp should be quite good. The only thing that kills that bike is geo. While bb and ha can be adjusted an almost 18 inch CS on a highish pivot is insane.

 

[dhr-racer]

I happen to have a bb7 for sale, 900 bones, msg me

 

[big-ted]

Why won't they change the geo? The bike is fairly light for a steel bike, the susp should be quite good. The only thing that kills that bike is geo. While bb and ha can be adjusted an almost 18 inch CS on a highish pivot is insane.

I'm sure they would if they were still making them.

 

[no skid marks]

a BB7 has two flat plates the swingarm connects to. They can be remade to slacken head angle and lower BB, also could allow a longer shock, but not sure if the ideal leverage ratio could be achieved.
BB7s are still good stock.

 

[ramstein-dh]

Hello

Yeah i really do like the idea of steel ,but what about Marin Quake 7.3 they look really nice and below my top price range.
Would they suit downhill?

 

[Gridds]

Hi there.

I used to have a scarab so I can offer some insight.

Strong and sturdy frames with uber plush bump eating suspension.

However, the back end suffers from huge amounts of lateral flex. This is due to the slack pivots and the long, small tubed steel swing arm. There's little you can do about it other than get used to two wheel steering. The geometry, as said, is pretty old school, very high and tall with steep head angle and short wheelbase - can feel pretty sketchy on steep downhills. The frame is also heavier than claimed - they claim 11.8 lbs or something for frame and shock but when I sold mine I stripped it down to the frame and shock and it weighed 13.5 lbs!!!

I bought a Katipo after that and man oh man the difference was incredible!! Katipo had all the good about the scarab but NONE of the bad!!!

Oh and I have some excellent cond. 888RC2X's for sale if you want them. I'm in the UK too.