[Jono]

Hi - I've been helping out a local DH club running some races over the last couple of years, and the biggest problem we have on race day is the timing - which is pretty old-school (stopwatches and excel). This is workable when we've got normal club races (about 80 racers), but gets more tricky when we get up towards 120-150 racers.

I was wondering if there are any people out there with suggestions for software (and/or hardware if necessary) for club-level racing (i.e. preferrably not systems that will cost us thousands of dollars).

Thanks in advance,

Jono

 

[Damo]

Reminds me of a small-time regional race back in New Zealand quite a few years ago.

They had 2 analog wall clocks which they synchronized. Then they took one up to start line and one at finish line.

They were 20 seconds out of sync by the time race finished!

Good luck in getting something that works mate!

Welly has some wicked tracks. Do people still ride my tracks on Mt Vic?

 

[ire]

I would look into ski systems. I had priced them a while back and it was around $2k for a cheaper laser system

 

[DIRTWRKS]

Our team looked into this and almost bought a system from France for training purposes, it uses wrist watches on the riders that are linked up to a timimg system that is tripped when a rider crosses next to these moveable timming pilons. Looks like this company is pretty big player in Europe for these systems.

We may purchase a system next year and will post a review on here if we do.

Here is a link to their web site, too bad it's only in French though ! The system in question is called Freelap just click under that product name on the right side of their home page

http://www.matsportraining.com/

 

[dondon]

someone obviously hasn't been reading Dirt Magazine all year and their 1:04 article.

 

[big-ted]

someone obviously hasn't been reading Dirt Magazine all year and their 1:04 article.

But that system requires riders to wear a wristwatch, each of which cost something like $100+. Hardly practical for a field of 100 or so riders.

They had 2 analog wall clocks which they synchronized. Then they took one up to start line and one at finish line.

They were 20 seconds out of sync by the time race finished!

Damned relativity.

I've actually toyed with the idea of making my own system from time to time. A couple of IR LEDs and some photodiodes, along with a bit of programming in labview or something and you could probably get a system up and running fairly easily for $300 or so.

 

[Beast]

along with a bit of programming in labview

enginerd?

 

[big-ted]

enginerd?

'fraid so.

 

[Beast]

'fraid so.

Just got a kick out of the labview thing.

"Let me bust out the LabVIEW VI and we'll get the race rolling . . . "

 

[Jono]

someone obviously hasn't been reading Dirt Magazine all year and their 1:04 article.

True - so what did they suggest?

 

[bikenweed]

The CCCX DH races in Northern California run well over 100 racers without any computers at all. At all the races I've gone to, timing has gone perfectly well.

Here's how they do it (with one minute intervals):
1. Every rider gets a number plate. All the numbers are different. This shows what class the rider is racing in.
2. As the rider pulls into the starting gate, the time of day she or he will be heading out at (i.e. 12:34, 1:45, 2:23, etc.) is written down on the number plate.
3. Riders start on the minute (i.e. 12:34:00, 1:45:00, 2:23:00, etc). The starter counts down from xx:xx:55 to "go", and the racer leaves on "go".
4. At the finish line, the time keepers note the time of day the rider crosses the line. After a rider finishes, she or he must tell the time keepers her or his start time- which is convenietly written on the numberplate. Some simple subtraction of the time finished from the time started yields the race run time. (12:34:00 start to 12:39:47 means a 00:5:47 run)

There's usually four or five volunteers helping the time keeper- one to note when a rider finishes, another to find out when the rider started, and someone else to focus on subtraction. Everything is written down (with pens and paper, no computer needed) and another helper begins to form up the results within the classes. The watches used to determine the start and finish times don't even have to be syncronised, they just need to be reliable.

It's not fancy, and it's probably accurate only to the second (unless you want to get tricky and find a watch that counts hundreths w/o going into stopwatch mode), but it works damn well, it's cheap, and it's a lot faster than waiting for the race to be over in order for the computer to calculate race run times.

 

[freakrock]

another way is:
1.- Write two identical starting lists, separating riders by class. these lists must include 5 fields:
number plate, name, starting time, ending time and final time.

2.- Give one of this lists to the person who will be in charge of the starting gate, and the other to the one on the finnish line.

3.- Repeat step 2 with two synchronized stopwatches


4.-if you radios or cellphones work where the race is held, use them to comunicate top and bottom, so both can decide when to start the race. Even better if you have more than two radios, then you have the chance to quickly stop the riders from starting if something unexpected happens or someone crashes bad.

If you can't use radios or cellphones, set a starting time while the guys from the finnish line and the ones from the starting gate are still together. Remember to give enough time to get to the top of the hill and have everything set up before the race has to start.

5.-if radio or cell phone:when you want the race to start, select the race's starting time and mark it before the fist rider's name.
since both stopwatches will already be running, i suggest that you select the next "thenth's" starting minute (for instance, 00:40:00.00) and then let one minute pass (or 30seconds if you have too many riders or not much time), let the first rider out of the gate as the next minute beggins (00:41:00.00), comunicate it to the person who is on the finnish line, and write down his starting time on the corresponding field on both starting lists (00:41:00.00). IT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAT THE STARTING TIMES ARE WRITTEN ON THE LIST THAT IS ON TOP THAN IN THE ONE ON THE BOTTOM. (but it is usefull to have them on the finnish line so that the times can be calculated inmediatelly)

if no radio or cell phone: Do the same proceidure described above, but you MUST respect the previously selected starting time, otherwise, times won't be accuratedly calculated until both starting lists are compared.

6.- The person in charge of the starting gate must make the riders start according to the starting list, each within one minute (or 30 secs) of the other, and should not make any changes to it.
6.1.- If for any reason someone doesn't start when he should,and isn't disqualyfied, he can be allowed to do his run, but he'll become inmediatelly the last one to start (right after the last rider of the last class). A note must be written by his name, and his starting time, along with the other required fields (and his class) must be written at the end of the list.

if radio or cell phone: THIS SITUATION MUST BE COMUNICATED TO THE PERSON ON THE BOTTOM

if no radio or cell phone: the person on the finnish line must stay in his place until the person who was on the starting gate tells him that there are no more riders on the course

7.- As the riders cross the finnish line, their ending times must be written in the corresponding field of the starting list that is on the bottom of the course.

If someone crashes bad, and the course must be closed while he is medically taken care of.
if radio or cell phone:
Stop the riders from starting their runs, but NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, DO NOT STOP THE STOPWATCHES, and resume the race following step 4 with the leftover riders
if no radio or cell phone: You are in serious trouble. Each rider who had his race run delayed by the crash must be brought back to the top, and let to do another run respecting step 6.1

8.- Times must be calculated substracting the starting time to the ending time. So, if the first rider started on 00:41:00.00 an crossed the finnish line at 00:45:15.67 his time would be the result of 00:45:15.67 - 00:41:00.00 . that gives us 00:04:15.67.

if radio or cell phone: The times can be calculated right after the rider crosses the finnish line, but must be corroborated by comparing both starting lists when the race ends by doing the following:
if no radio or cell phone: As soon as the person in charge of the starting gate arrives to the bottom of the course, HIS starting times must be substracted to the ending times written on the other list. by Doing so, you are getting your results using the most trustable data that you have.
(Always remember that the person in Charge of the finnish line's stopwatch can stop paying attention only when he is officially told that there are no more racers on the course)

If something seems wrong, stay cool and take your time to analyze the starting lists. If both persons did a good job, then you'll have all the data you need for decent timing.


Please excuse me if something isn't well explained... English isn't my first language (nor the second), and it is late here... I did my best to be as clear as possible. I'll also do my best to answer any questions you might have

 

[Damo]

2 things:

1/ Your English is by far superior to many here.

2/ I'm exhausted just contemplating reading all that.

 

[Jono]

Welly has some wicked tracks. Do people still ride my tracks on Mt Vic?

Yep - mt vic is still a really good place for riding. So what tracks were yours over there?

There is new singletrack appearing on the hill all the time. Generally, welly is one of the best places in the country - certainly the best major city - for mountain biking. And the council is working well with us now - in the past 2 months we've had a jump park built on the town belt, and the council has approached us to build a new DH track from the wind turbine down to the south coast.

 

[ire]

the problem with using stop watches, or a manual system like that is the error.....there will be +/- 2 seconds based on reaction time of the person doing the timing

 

[bikenweed]

the problem with using stop watches, or a manual system like that is the error.....there will be +/- 2 seconds based on reaction time of the person doing the timing

Stopwatches will have the most error, those things are pretty inconsistent. I'm basing that off comparing my stopwatch to my cellphone's stopwatch. That's why using the time of day is good, as most clocks/watches won't be so sloppy as to be off by 20 seconds after only two hours.

I think the error margin is really only about a second. Riders leave at +/- a half second of when they should actually leave, and marking the finish time down can't be more accurate than a half second as well. Anyhow, such a system works best for longer races. We've used it for sub three minute races with fairly good results, but races over five minutes are much better. The pack is more spread out, and the times are varied considerably more.

 

[paranoid56]

why cant they use transponder systems like when i am on the track? its some money to buy it, but its almost always error free and super accurate.

Shane

 

[dhkid]

in england for the dragon dh races, they use rfid(sp?) chips for the races. you can pretty much turn up for your seeding and both finals runs anytime you want. its great. i have no idea how much the system cost tho.

 

[freakrock]

using stopwatches is indeed les accurate than other systems, but you have to keep in mind that both stopwatches will be operated by the same persons during the whole race, and as far as i know, reaction times vary from one person to another, but the same reaction should take almost the same time to the others when repeated by the same person in similar conditions. If that is right, even if the error rate is 3 seconds, it should be the same for every rider, and therefore, it shouldn't be a big issue.

If there isn't money for a good timing system, stopwatches are a good choice, but man must make sure that they won't de-synchronize by making them run for a few hours before the race.

 

[Jono]

Yeah - we've used a stopwatch and excel method for the past several years, and I've got the method down pretty good (we had printed results out within 25 minutes of the final rider coming down at a north island series race with 120+ riders at the weekend), but it would be nice to have a piece of software to take care of it all.

On the transponders - yeah - they're really nice to use, but kinda expensive for the "4 races a year" club use that they would get with us. There is a local company running timing for events like this, but it isn't cost effective for them (or within our budgets) for events with less than 200 racers.

The main problem that we keep coming up against is that we try to run races for about NZ$25-35 (about US$20-ish) (including transport) so that everyone has a chance to get involved - by comparison the nationals-level events cost about $110 by the time practice day is included (and as the clubs only see a fraction of the entry price once the national body has taken their administration cut)

Meh - I guess that grassroots racing is always going to be about shoestring seat-of-the-pants efforts

Jono

 

[dhkid]

with the system we use back home, we use stop watches and can even run a hot seat.

just start with two (or more stopwatches) at the bottom, start at the same time, take one up, each rider has a designated start time. the are let off at the top. at the bottom they just use the split function on the stop watch. minus the start time which is known before hand, you get the time. really quick and effective way.

 

[WODIE]

If you dont have a few thousand to drop on a laser system the stopwatch system is the way to go. True there is going to be a slight bit of human error but even so, that would be a little more accurate than the "time of day" way going by minutes and seconds.. stopwatches give you split seconds ::HIGH TECH:: If anyone bitches about human error for there ending time though just blame it on them for starting slower or something since its up to you to start on time.

 

[bizutch]

Geez guys...he asked for a system, not everybody's "cost effective" ghetto system. He wants to BUY it for their club, right?

Here you go. Scroll down the page to "Mountain Bike". Very convenient.
http://www.reliableracing.com/timingtagconfigs.cfm
The first one is all the Tag stuff. If you can't order direct from Reliable, you can order these exact pieces from your Tag distributor!
This is their other timing system company in the event you don't have either option:
http://alge-timing.com/alge/sport-e.htm



It's in English and the entire catalog of piece parts is there. The PDF's Reliable has setup of the Tag system is VERY helpful. They can also set it up to handle slalom with exact splits to the 1/1000 of a second.

 

[Jonny5]

Be great to have a system like the above that didn't cost 6k. Any other alternatives?

 

[Jonny5]

http://www.equineelectronics.com/RT.htm

Looks simple, awesome software too. Sucks that you ca only got to the screen or the watch- not both. But the biggest limiting factor is the range. Any ideas?

 

[bizutch]

Be great to have a system like the above that didn't cost 6k. Any other alternatives?

$6 is the top of the line one.

The Basic MTB kit only costs $1800.00. Electronic timer up top and down bottom. Box records times and prints out bib # and time to the 1000th of a second.

You buy a big spool of inexpensive phone line to run from top of the hill to the bottom. That's it!

Pretty damn cheap to get deadly accurate results if you ask me.

Granted...the $6k GPS enabled one would be insanely convenient.

 

[bizutch]

http://www.equineelectronics.com/RT.htm

Looks simple, awesome software too. Sucks that you ca only got to the screen or the watch- not both. But the biggest limiting factor is the range. Any ideas?

Yes...don't use it. Lame. What's the sense of spending $1800.00 to eliminate one set of thumbs on a stopwatch.

 

[Jonny5]

Huh? Its got two sets of beams. I had another look at the basic set, didn't realize it uses beams. Mmmm

 

[Jonny5]

But it does use a cable. Thats a bunch of wire.

 

[bizutch]

But it does use a cable. Thats a bunch of wire.

Not really. It rolls up pretty tight. Most ski clubs use it at most mountains. Mike Green used his at 6-8 events per year at varying resorts all over the South east, all on 1 spool. And the phone wire is way cheap in big spools.

You'd be surprised how simple it is to just carry a spool of phone wire down a hill and let it unwind. Takes 10-20 minutes to walk it down and timing is then 100%. Plus, buying the stopwatches that are optional makes sure you won't miss a single rider.

If you're only using the timing at a single mountain, you can just leave the wire lying.

 

[Jonny5]

Hmm, interesting! I've always been thinking that wireless is the way to go, but your probably right. Seems simple enough. So is there something that could be done with two laptops and a bunch of lan cable?

 

[bizutch]

pretty easy way to destroy two laptops if you ask me.
"Oh, look...rain."
"It's OK. My laptop is waterproof..."

 

[_bp]

I have been told by someone with a lot of experience that wireless is not that accurate. He did however say that the inaccuracy tends to be consistent. So a 5:00 run may say 5:01, but it will be off the same for everyone. I guess it would depend on how much you value total accuracy.

 

[Jonny5]

pretty easy way to destroy two laptops if you ask me.
"Oh, look...rain."
"It's OK. My laptop is waterproof..."

It doesn't rain in Central Queensland, Australia.

 

[bizutch]

This would be perfect for Windrock:

This revolutionary timing device combines the precision of GPS technology with TAG Heuer's proven thermo-compensated time base, delivering guaranteed accuracy to 1/100,000 of a second - far exceeding the requirements of any sport.
GPS synchronization of the base unit
Synchronization between the base and satellite unit guarantees time stability from start to finish
Time-of-days at the start and finish remain accurate throughout the timing session
Memorize and retransmit times from the satellite unit to the base unit. Never lose a time!
Printer can be connected to both units for FIS requirements for system A or B
Connect to a PC to share all timing data with software, or download all the memorized times later on
Set Receiver/Transmitter Charger/ Antennas
Imported.

 

[bizutch]

It doesn't rain in Central Queensland, Australia.

hah hah. Maybe. Carry two laptops to the top and bottom of a track one day with 80-150 riders and test Murphy's Law for me, would you?

 

[Jonny5]

Haha. I'll take my chances.

This is what I'm thinking. I don't really have the skills to do it, but anyways.

Top laptop is setup as a server, bottom lappy logs in and a server time is recorded. Basic software lets you enter a race number before the rider rolls over a switch tape which is linked to keyboard shortcut to record the start time.

Bottom lappy same thing, however it records the server time first and then you assign the race number. It does the simple math and spits out the final time.

I'm sure there would be some lag over cable distance, but this is going to be equal across everyones times.

It could almost be done with appache and php?

 

[AiR2k]

in england for the dragon dh races, they use rfid(sp?) chips for the races. you can pretty much turn up for your seeding and both finals runs anytime you want. its great. i have no idea how much the system cost tho.

Do you have any place, where I could get more information about that rfID setup?

 

[bizutch]

Do you have any place, where I could get more information about that rfID setup?

www.championchip.com
They're international.

 

[slothy]

That championchip doesnt look major expensive, because it has rfid it would be efficient to use, wonder if it has a pc interface.... any idea of prices?