Ya wUrd, wasn't the point of casting to make things cheap?
Empires Cast dh frame.. up to date pics!!
- Thread starter RMboy
- Start date
Why don't you lot knock it off with them negative waves?
Jeees it's not new technology and the motorcycle industry have been using it for some time now. I'm pretty saddened that there's people on here that are willing to slag off something they've seen a couple of picture of and other than that know very little about. I'm all for a little healthy scepticism but posts like this:-
I like it, if you've seen it in person the attention to detail is incredible - it has some really nice touches and should ride as well as anything. Talking to the guys; they have a lot of experience, both in the industry and with the process and they're trying to make an awesome bike. I'm not sure I want one but it's certainly on the list when I'm in the market and they're available.
Jeees it's not new technology and the motorcycle industry have been using it for some time now. I'm pretty saddened that there's people on here that are willing to slag off something they've seen a couple of picture of and other than that know very little about. I'm all for a little healthy scepticism but posts like this:-
are retarded. It's got **** all to do with Honda and I hope you never do.
I like it, if you've seen it in person the attention to detail is incredible - it has some really nice touches and should ride as well as anything. Talking to the guys; they have a lot of experience, both in the industry and with the process and they're trying to make an awesome bike. I'm not sure I want one but it's certainly on the list when I'm in the market and they're available.
I just loooovvvee how every other post says 'cast alu is really brittle' I find it extremely hard to imagine that someone would venture into making a cast frame without having a bit of knowledge on the subject, and by a bit I mean probably a whole lot more than you. They're trying something new, maybe it's inherently inferior, maybe it's not, but I dont see that this is any more speculative than many of the suspension designs out there.
Rant over.
Rant over.
Not maybe, it IS inferior. The only reason to use casting to build a DH frame is cost. Period. It's heavier and not as strong as a well-welded tube frame. To cost buckets more than a superbly constructed boutique DH frame is ridiculous. It's obvious they're trying to recoup initial tooling costs, when they should have gone into the hole to first sell the bikes.
Motos use casting because of the ease of mass-production. In turn, this makes the frames cheap. The heaviest cost is incurred when initially making the molds for the cast.
I was stoked on the idea when I saw it a year back, thinking maybe we'd see $500-1000 DH race frames, but now that I see how much they want for them...$4k (just going off UK MSRP) is mildly obscene.
3 words:- Economies of scale
DH isn't MX and this this ain't no KTM/Yamaha/Honda/Kawasaki/Suzuki They'll probably shift a couple of hundred units at a maximum, I would imagine. Tooling costs have to be recouped over projected sales over the lifetime of the product or you treat it as a loss leader and I doubt they have a huge "hole" to go into. These guys aren't millionaires building a new brand they're just real enthusiasts wanting to make a great bike and do something different. Maybe if this takes off they can reduce the price but there's one thing that's for certain; they sure as hell can't increase it (well unless Sam Hill gets on one
)Yes, economies of scale. If the product was proven and they sold it at $750 with a shock...well...yeah. There's a large market for an affordable and reliable DH race frame. However, if they're introducing it on the market at $4k, no one's going to buy it. It will be just as marginalized as Calfee bamboo bikes or something of that nature.3 words:- Economies of scale
DH isn't MX and this this ain't no KTM/Yamaha/Honda/Kawasaki/Suzuki They'll probably shift a couple of hundred units at a maximum, I would imagine. Tooling costs have to be recouped over projected sales over the lifetime of the product or you treat it as a loss leader and I doubt they have a huge "hole" to go into. These guys aren't millionaires building a new brand they're just real enthusiasts wanting to make a great bike and do something different. Maybe if this takes off they can reduce the price but there's one thing that's for certain; they sure as hell can't increase it (well unless Sam Hill gets on one
I don't walk into a car dealership and buy a stripped down Ford Taurus when I can buy a loaded Lexus for half the price.
Where does your $750 with shock come from?
If a shock comes in at $250 trade and they give you the shock, the frame is $500. Say 50% of that is profit, it should cost $250 to make it (that's if they're selling direct - if they want to do dealers it'd be almost 1/2 that again).
If you take into consideration that to make anything over here you'll be charging at least £25/hr ($50) that gives you 5 hours to make a frame if you discount the material costs, tooling costs, R&D costs and other overheads.
I think you're being more than a little unrealistic - do you expect them to build you a frame for free or even pay for you to have one?
If it were painted turquoise, people would be wetting themselves to pay $4500 for one.
If a shock comes in at $250 trade and they give you the shock, the frame is $500. Say 50% of that is profit, it should cost $250 to make it (that's if they're selling direct - if they want to do dealers it'd be almost 1/2 that again).
If you take into consideration that to make anything over here you'll be charging at least £25/hr ($50) that gives you 5 hours to make a frame if you discount the material costs, tooling costs, R&D costs and other overheads.
I think you're being more than a little unrealistic - do you expect them to build you a frame for free or even pay for you to have one?
If it were painted turquoise, people would be wetting themselves to pay $4500 for one.
It doesn't help right now that the US Dollar is worth utter dogsh*t as a currancy.
Compare on a like for like basis, its slightly lower than most big frames (M3, M6, V10, Socom, Sunday, DHR etc etc) & its cheaper.
If production takes off, they have the ability to churn them out one after the other, such is the advantage of casting.
Some of the comments are E Speculation at thier finest!
Compare on a like for like basis, its slightly lower than most big frames (M3, M6, V10, Socom, Sunday, DHR etc etc) & its cheaper.
If production takes off, they have the ability to churn them out one after the other, such is the advantage of casting.
Some of the comments are E Speculation at thier finest!
Yeah I was about to mention that about the pricing over here in the UK. A 2008 Sunday frameset has an RRP of about £2000, and you won't get a new Intense for under that. It's actually reasonable pricing, assuming it can get you down a hill as well as the other top end frames can.It doesn't help right now that the US Dollar is worth utter dogsh*t as a currancy.
Compare on a like for like basis, its slightly lower than most big frames (M3, M6, V10, Socom, Sunday, DHR etc etc) & its cheaper.
If production takes off, they have the ability to churn them out one after the other, such is the advantage of casting.
Some of the comments are E Speculation at thier finest!
As for the frame itself, I like the look of it, I applaud them for trying something different, it may bring the cost of a decent DH bike down in a few years time if the casting can be done on a large scale, and I'm not going to rip into the integrity of a frame before anyone has even sat on one, never mind broken one (or shattered it into a fine powder as the speculation on here would seem to suggest).
They have sold the first batch of 22 frames already. I was told they are £2200 with a Rocco shock. Spoke to a few people that have rode it and they reckon its pretty good, one guy said it is the best bike he has ridden, said the geometry is spot on. It did have a cane creek on it, don't know if that makes a difference to the ride. Me personally I would not spend that cash on something that is unproven, but then again I probably would'nt spend that cash on something that is proven!
Craig -shop owner and main man behind the frame is doing well on it.
http://www.rideon.co.uk/dynamic/?pageId=9&templateId=1
Also bear in mind, the engineering behind it is English-it'll be reet.
http://www.rideon.co.uk/dynamic/?pageId=9&templateId=1
Also bear in mind, the engineering behind it is English-it'll be reet.
I wonder if they could Cast one out of Titanium? That would be Pimp!!!!
agreed. justify that pricetag.
I'm pretty sure blue's $750 number was just arbitrary.
Nobody is expecting them to do anything. They are free to build whatever frame they want. But if you take a manufacturing process that is specifically designed to produce cheap products, has no other advantages, and then use it to produce a very expensive product... well, do you not see why people would have something to say about that?
I don't know enough about the process. It is my understanding that a cast frame will have structural disadvantages to a properly built welded tube frame at a given weight, same materials, etc. Consequently, if you are paying a huge amount for the frame, why would you choose the one at a disadvantage? It's always good to see people doing different things in the industry, but at the end of the day, as a consumer I have to make smart purchasing decisions and paying more for a frame without gaining anything from that extra money sounds ill conceived.
BAHAHAHA bravo
