Whats different between the Sovereign and DOC frames?
especially since the prices are estimated at $800 and $450 respectively?
just interested
especially since the prices are estimated at $800 and $450 respectively?
just interested
The production DOC looks as if its going to made from that Triple Butted Reynolds stuff.binary visions said:For one thing, the Soverign uses a custom Reynolds tubeset instead of the fairly generic steel of the DOC...
wow man i thought they were almost identicle, that would explain the price difference...ssaddict said:The geometery, tubeset, adjustability, and manufacturing are all different. Honestly, the only real similarity is that they were both designed by DW.
What info are you really looking for?
To the average person and the naked eye, they will look pretty similar (except for some details like the dropouts, HT, etc.). But the DOC has a little more of Chris's influence into the geometry, and is going to be a little more comfortable in the street and park.manhattanprjkt83 said:wow man i thought they were almost identicle, that would explain the price difference...
853 is reynolds top of the line (soveriegn)CreeP said:hmm, seems a little inconsistent here.
ok how can the DOC even have tripple butted tubing, nevermind reynolds' top of the line steel alloy for that price?
The Sovereign should be selling for alot closer to the $1425 cost of the 853 IF built bike than $800ohio said:853 is reynolds top of the line (soveriegn)
631 is their middle-of-the-line air-hardening steel (DOC)
853 is really fackin' expensive. How the sovereign costs that little when it's made of the same stuff (plus smaller run tubesets) and in the same (I think) as an IF deluxe blows my mind.
631 is still a whole helluvalot stronger and nicer than standard 4130 or even heat-treated 4130, but a way more reasonable price than 853. Couple that with Taiwanese production vs American and you've got your relative price differences... though both are still steals (pun, he he) for what you get.
Seriously, do a quick search on the cheapest 853 and 631 hardtail you can find and see how it matches up at retail. Then remember that none of those other bikes used custom drawn tubes, and all of them were made overseas.
ohio said:853 is reynolds top of the line (soveriegn)
631 is their middle-of-the-line air-hardening steel (DOC)
853 is really fackin' expensive. How the sovereign costs that little when it's made of the same stuff (plus smaller run tubesets) and in the same (I think) as an IF deluxe blows my mind.
631 is still a whole helluvalot stronger and nicer than standard 4130 or even heat-treated 4130, but a way more reasonable price than 853. Couple that with Taiwanese production vs American and you've got your relative price differences... though both are still steals (pun, he he) for what you get.
Seriously, do a quick search on the cheapest 853 and 631 hardtail you can find and see how it matches up at retail. Then remember that none of those other bikes used custom drawn tubes, and all of them were made overseas.
indieboy said:the IF has a little bit more butting that goes into it then the evil will. i maybe wrong on this but i'm sure the evil is going to be powdercoated and not painted by IF. dave can correct me if i'm wrong. another difference in the price would be seen in the fact that IF does custom geometry stuff only now. all their bikes are being built one by one instead of batches (which i'm sure the evil's will be built in). i'm sure there are some other things going on that would influence the price but as of right now i can't think of em.
dave, i thought tyler and those boys weren't building the production, that they were just building the protos? haven't talked to tyler in a while so i've missed out on some info.......
Don't get me wrong... I wasn't bashing the pricing on IFs and I recognize the production differences. I was just trying to provide a frame of reference for the "high" price of the sovereign.indieboy said:IF is totally sweet
ohio said:Don't get me wrong... I wasn't bashing the pricing on IFs and I recognize the production differences. I was just trying to provide a frame of reference for the "high" price of the sovereign.
IF's for the record, are completely worth the money for the attention and quality that goes into them. I've spent a lot of time looking into the ops and financials, and can tell you that those guys aren't making a killing on their frames.
My peyto in 853 cost 1200 canadian (945 to you guys) including shipping across the continent, and taxes and was all custom work.ohio said:853 is reynolds top of the line (soveriegn)
631 is their middle-of-the-line air-hardening steel (DOC)
853 is really fackin' expensive. How the sovereign costs that little when it's made of the same stuff (plus smaller run tubesets) and in the same (I think) as an IF deluxe blows my mind.
631 is still a whole helluvalot stronger and nicer than standard 4130 or even heat-treated 4130, but a way more reasonable price than 853. Couple that with Taiwanese production vs American and you've got your relative price differences... though both are still steals (pun, he he) for what you get.
Seriously, do a quick search on the cheapest 853 and 631 hardtail you can find and see how it matches up at retail. Then remember that none of those other bikes used custom drawn tubes, and all of them were made overseas.
that's why i sprang for the peyto; here's hoping it pays off.DW said:I think that more street/ park riders may be into a high end bike than you think. All the fancy tubes, nice welds and features add up to frames that will last longer and at the same time be lighter than a frame without that stuff.
Hi Jamie,indieboy said:the IF has a little bit more butting that goes into it then the evil will. i maybe wrong on this but i'm sure the evil is going to be powdercoated and not painted by IF. dave can correct me if i'm wrong. another difference in the price would be seen in the fact that IF does custom geometry stuff only now. all their bikes are being built one by one instead of batches (which i'm sure the evil's will be built in). i'm sure there are some other things going on that would influence the price but as of right now i can't think of em.
dave, i thought tyler and those boys weren't building the production, that they were just building the protos? haven't talked to tyler in a while so i've missed out on some info.......
indieboy said:just wait till next week to see some crazy ass stuff :evil:
Exactly, close to a grand and you're still not getting custom drawn tubes. Custom geometry is a different story (also not cheap).CreeP said:My peyto in 853 cost 1200 canadian (945 to you guys) including shipping across the continent, and taxes and was all custom work.
That's the one that can morph its arms into blades and hammers, right? Not like the first generation that looks like Ahhhhnold...dw said:T.E. 2
hahahah yeah, thats the oneohio said:That's the one that can morph its arms into blades and hammers, right? Not like the first generation that looks like Ahhhhnold...
I'm going to have to disagree with that point. I realize having tubes custom drawn isn't cheap, but doing a production run of one or two sizes is dramatically more efficient than one off custom work. Ordering tubes and frame parts in bulk that are all identical, as well as having frames painted all the same color in batches is a huge money saver. Custom work requires alot of set up time at each step of the build process. Geometry, tube size and part choice is always different, so every chainstay and seatstay bend is different, every disk tab, stay bridge and gusset must be cut to a different shape to accomodate the changes. And I won't even go into the amount of extra work and time required when fillet brazing, or the huge amount of time spent communicating with the customer to make sure he/she gets what they want.dw said:The Sovereign frame should EASILY sell for as much as any custom built frame if you are taking into account materials etc... Maybe more.
Dave
yo dude!dw said:Hi Jamie,
You are wrong on this. Next time, you should DEFINITELY check your facts first...
Perfect tubes for the IF frames already exist off the shelf, so they dont have to worry about that. Not the case for us. The Evil tubes, are arguably, MORE custom than the IF tubes actually. Not takiing anything away from the IF frames at all of course, but we had to build all custom tooling for the Sovereign tubes because Reynolds has never previously buil tubing this strong before. Tubing diameters, butting profiles, everything is custom.
The Sovereigns are built in CA, USA by a small 2-man custom shop that is building exclusively for Evil. Thats about as "boutique" as it gets.
Fact is that Ohio is right. The Sovereign frame should EASILY sell for as much as any custom built frame if you are taking into account materials etc... Maybe more. Its not like this is a high production item.
Dave
Different kinds of costs. Your custom geometry and tube choice is a marginal cost. The cost of drawing new tubing is a fixed cost for the tooling... amortize it over the length of the production run and it could end up costing you more or less than custom geometry on a per bike basis. So without raw numbers (which no one should put up online) it's all academic. The point isn't whether or not the sovereign should cost more or is a better bike than a custom hardtail, it's that for what it is the sovereign is a damn good deal.peyto said:I'm going to have to disagree with that point. I realize having tubes custom drawn isn't cheap, but doing a production run of one or two sizes is dramatically more efficient than one off custom work