Whats different between the Sovereign and DOC frames?
especially since the prices are estimated at $800 and $450 respectively?
just interested
especially since the prices are estimated at $800 and $450 respectively?
just interested
Evil Sovereign vs DOC Differences?
- Thread starter RaID
- Start date
can't find anything, oh wise one would you kindly point me in the dirrection of the pertinent discussion?
For one thing, the Soverign uses a custom Reynolds tubeset instead of the fairly generic steel of the DOC...
And if I remember correctly the Soverign is being built in house at Evil. The DOC is made in Tawain.
The geometery, tubeset, adjustability, and manufacturing are all different. Honestly, the only real similarity is that they were both designed by DW.
What info are you really looking for?
What info are you really looking for?
The production DOC looks as if its going to made from that Triple Butted Reynolds stuff.binary visions said:
http://www.pinkbike.com/modules/news/?op=articleview&id=2220
wow man i thought they were almost identicle, that would explain the price difference...ssaddict said:
Evil isn't making any frames in house. I think the Soverign production is going to Indy Fab.
As for the tubes, according to pinkbike, it is triple butted, air-hardening alloy made by Reynolds. Sounds like 853 to me.
My impression is that the DOC was more of a street/park frame and the Soverign was more of a all around trail bike. I think country of origin accounts for the price difference.
As for the tubes, according to pinkbike, it is triple butted, air-hardening alloy made by Reynolds. Sounds like 853 to me.
My impression is that the DOC was more of a street/park frame and the Soverign was more of a all around trail bike. I think country of origin accounts for the price difference.
To the average person and the naked eye, they will look pretty similar (except for some details like the dropouts, HT, etc.). But the DOC has a little more of Chris's influence into the geometry, and is going to be a little more comfortable in the street and park.manhattanprjkt83 said:wow man i thought they were almost identicle, that would explain the price difference...
hmm, seems a little inconsistent here.
ok how can the DOC even have tripple butted tubing, nevermind reynolds' top of the line steel alloy for that price?
ok how can the DOC even have tripple butted tubing, nevermind reynolds' top of the line steel alloy for that price?
853 is reynolds top of the line (soveriegn)CreeP said:
631 is their middle-of-the-line air-hardening steel (DOC)
853 is really fackin' expensive. How the sovereign costs that little when it's made of the same stuff (plus smaller run tubesets) and in the same (I think) as an IF deluxe blows my mind.
631 is still a whole helluvalot stronger and nicer than standard 4130 or even heat-treated 4130, but a way more reasonable price than 853. Couple that with Taiwanese production vs American and you've got your relative price differences... though both are still steals (pun, he he) for what you get.
Seriously, do a quick search on the cheapest 853 and 631 hardtail you can find and see how it matches up at retail. Then remember that none of those other bikes used custom drawn tubes, and all of them were made overseas.
The Sovereign should be selling for alot closer to the $1425 cost of the 853 IF built bike than $800ohio said:
And the DOC is no different, seeing some of the welds on the unpainted prototype the quality is UNREAL! With that awesome headtube and all the sick adjustment in the dropouts, there is no reason it shouldn't sell for double it's MSRP.
I don't really think fancy tubes, really high quality welds and nice dropouts appeal that much to the street/park crowd. At least not to the point where you could charge a lot more than the compertion. Those touches however can however make all the difference when someone is chosing between two similar frames with similar pricing.
Thanks Ohio and SSAddict, you guys got it locked down!
D_D, I think that more street/ park riders may be into a high end bike than you think. All the fancy tubes, nice welds and features add up to frames that will last longer and at the same time be lighter than a frame without that stuff. You are dead on with the second part though. Feature for feature, tube for tube, Evil frames have always been among the top of their class in terms of features and quality for the the cost. This frame is designed right along those same ideals really.
Man, I have to go to sleep! 5AMs coming quick...
dw
D_D, I think that more street/ park riders may be into a high end bike than you think. All the fancy tubes, nice welds and features add up to frames that will last longer and at the same time be lighter than a frame without that stuff. You are dead on with the second part though. Feature for feature, tube for tube, Evil frames have always been among the top of their class in terms of features and quality for the the cost. This frame is designed right along those same ideals really.
Man, I have to go to sleep! 5AMs coming quick...
dw
cheers guys for the responses
sounds like its the perfect hardtail frame for me
now is the time to start saving
note: i posted this thread before the question was answered on the other DOC thread
cheers
sounds like its the perfect hardtail frame for me
now is the time to start saving
note: i posted this thread before the question was answered on the other DOC thread
cheers
ohio said:
the IF has a little bit more butting that goes into it then the evil will. i maybe wrong on this but i'm sure the evil is going to be powdercoated and not painted by IF. dave can correct me if i'm wrong. another difference in the price would be seen in the fact that IF does custom geometry stuff only now. all their bikes are being built one by one instead of batches (which i'm sure the evil's will be built in). i'm sure there are some other things going on that would influence the price but as of right now i can't think of em.
dave, i thought tyler and those boys weren't building the production, that they were just building the protos? haven't talked to tyler in a while so i've missed out on some info.......
Great info guys thanks! i was not understaninding this matter...
i was not understaninding this matter...
indieboy said:
I know IF's are totally custom and alot different than a Sovereign (apples and oranges really), I only ment they should sell for a price closer to that of the 853 IF.
Don't get me wrong... I wasn't bashing the pricing on IFs and I recognize the production differences. I was just trying to provide a frame of reference for the "high" price of the sovereign.indieboy said:
IF's for the record, are completely worth the money for the attention and quality that goes into them. I've spent a lot of time looking into the ops and financials, and can tell you that those guys aren't making a killing on their frames.
ohio said:
trust me they aren't. while i was there i had to do a decent amount of paper work and some number crunching. it's not much.
i know you weren't bashing IF, you or SS, i was just trying to point out why they were so much more for other ppl. i know the two of you are completely capable of seeing the price difference but others may not
just wait till next week to see some crazy ass stuff :evil:
My peyto in 853 cost 1200 canadian (945 to you guys) including shipping across the continent, and taxes and was all custom work.ohio said:
that's why i sprang for the peyto; here's hoping it pays off.DW said:
And DW i think your batches had better be huge for the DOC
Hi Jamie,indieboy said:
You are wrong on this. Next time, you should DEFINITELY check your facts first...
Perfect tubes for the IF frames already exist off the shelf, so they dont have to worry about that. Not the case for us. The Evil tubes, are arguably, MORE custom than the IF tubes actually. Not takiing anything away from the IF frames at all of course, but we had to build all custom tooling for the Sovereign tubes because Reynolds has never previously buil tubing this strong before. Tubing diameters, butting profiles, everything is custom.
The Sovereigns are built in CA, USA by a small 2-man custom shop that is building exclusively for Evil. Thats about as "boutique" as it gets.
Fact is that Ohio is right. The Sovereign frame should EASILY sell for as much as any custom built frame if you are taking into account materials etc... Maybe more. Its not like this is a high production item.
Dave
T.E. 2? Is that some kind of robot you built to serve the beers?
Brian
Brian
I'm going to have to disagree with that point. I realize having tubes custom drawn isn't cheap, but doing a production run of one or two sizes is dramatically more efficient than one off custom work. Ordering tubes and frame parts in bulk that are all identical, as well as having frames painted all the same color in batches is a huge money saver. Custom work requires alot of set up time at each step of the build process. Geometry, tube size and part choice is always different, so every chainstay and seatstay bend is different, every disk tab, stay bridge and gusset must be cut to a different shape to accomodate the changes. And I won't even go into the amount of extra work and time required when fillet brazing, or the huge amount of time spent communicating with the customer to make sure he/she gets what they want.dw said:
Paul
yo dude!dw said:
talked to joe today, b/c i was under the assumption that IF wasn't building the production runs. didn't see you post anything against it and hadn't talked to tyler in quite some time so i figured it may have changed since i've last talked to him *shruggs*
with the tooling, did jeff help you guys set that up or did jamie do it?
and yes the T.E. does look sweet, wish lloyd and tyler would send me one to test ride in the GA clay......
Different kinds of costs. Your custom geometry and tube choice is a marginal cost. The cost of drawing new tubing is a fixed cost for the tooling... amortize it over the length of the production run and it could end up costing you more or less than custom geometry on a per bike basis. So without raw numbers (which no one should put up online) it's all academic. The point isn't whether or not the sovereign should cost more or is a better bike than a custom hardtail, it's that for what it is the sovereign is a damn good deal.peyto said:
well at least the DOC is, that i think nobody can dispute.