[General Lee]

on paper it might be true that a floating brake will let the suspension remain more active through braking bumps and thus will slow you down quickly and with more control. this is not to say that in reality your wheel will not step out to the side or chatter over the top of bumps, a floating brake will not glue your rear wheel to the ground. that being said it is entirely possible that it's effect on your bike will go completely un-noticed. let's face it, dh bikes aren;t braking on pavement or predictable sufraces, there is so much going on when a bike is slowing down that having rear suspension that is slightly more "active" may not make one ounce of practical differance. if you're hitting bumps that are already using up all your available suspension, or are not even comming close, is a floater going to make a noteworthy differance? no. if your braking technique is crap will it make a differance? no. if you drag your brakes all the time will it help? yeah, it might. . . but you'll be off the back anyway if you ride like that. i would bet most of the guys on here saying floaters aren't necessary or noticable are semi-pro and pro racers whose ability pretty much negates the need for floaters anyway . . .

if you want one, buy one. the fastest guys don't use them because they don't notice the benefits or simply compensate naturally. saying you "need" a floating brake to go as fast as possilbe is like saying you have to ride a Sunday, or Maxxis tires, or flat pedals. . . .

i actually disliked the feeling of the floater on my 223, it felt like i lost feel for the rear wheel. i like the back end to sink when i hit the brakes (this is what barel's floater is designed to do, by the way), since the front is doing the same thing. and if the rear suspension gets a little stiffer, big deal, i bottom my rear shock out probably a dozen times per run anyway so it's not like i'm going to notice.

whatever makes you feel fast, or cooler than your friends, i suppose. but remember, the less you use your brakes the less of an effect the floater is going to have.

and yeah, this nonesense about riders going "seconds" faster with floaters is just that. nonesense. . . . or spam

 

[zmtber]

Thank God someone said it. Braking in a turn will make you slow down to much, brake before a turn.

This is what I was trying to say, don't take things I say so literally

 

[zmtber]

on paper it might be true that a floating brake will let the suspension remain more active through braking bumps and thus will slow you down quickly and with more control. this is not to say that in reality your wheel will not step out to the side or chatter over the top of bumps, a floating brake will not glue your rear wheel to the ground. that being said it is entirely possible that it's effect on your bike will go completely un-noticed. let's face it, dh bikes aren;t braking on pavement or predictable sufraces, there is so much going on when a bike is slowing down that having rear suspension that is slightly more "active" may not make one ounce of practical differance. if you're hitting bumps that are already using up all your available suspension, or are not even comming close, is a floater going to make a noteworthy differance? no. if your braking technique is crap will it make a differance? no. if you drag your brakes all the time will it help? yeah, it might. . . but you'll be off the back anyway if you ride like that. i would bet most of the guys on here saying floaters aren't necessary or noticable are semi-pro and pro racers whose ability pretty much negates the need for floaters anyway . . .

if you want one, buy one. the fastest guys don't use them because they don't notice the benefits or simply compensate naturally. saying you "need" a floating brake to go as fast as possilbe is like saying you have to ride a Sunday, or Maxxis tires, or flat pedals. . . .

i actually disliked the feeling of the floater on my 223, it felt like i lost feel for the rear wheel. i like the back end to sink when i hit the brakes (this is what barel's floater is designed to do, by the way), since the front is doing the same thing. and if the rear suspension gets a little stiffer, big deal, i bottom my rear shock out probably a dozen times per run anyway so it's not like i'm going to notice.

whatever makes you feel fast, or cooler than your friends, i suppose. but remember, the less you use your brakes the less of an effect the floater is going to have.

and yeah, this nonesense about riders going "seconds" faster with floaters is just that. nonesense. . . . or spam

thank you that sumed everything up, and now i understand the use of a floater

 

[degoose]

ya fabian barrel dident win the wc with it or anything....

 

[WheelieMan]

ya fabian barrel dident win the wc with it or anything....

As mentioned multiple times before, Fabien's floating brake geometry is very unconventional and actually increases brake squat. Fabien's use of a floater is therefore an argument against those who feel that brake squat is a negative trait that should be decreased with the use of a floater. (with conventional geometry)

Regardless, Fabien's use of a floater supports my belief that braking performance is extremely important to consider and is often worth adding a small weight penalty in order to achieve the desired effect.

 

[zmtber]

this is true, so it all depends in my style of riding and my level.

 

[General Lee]

ya fabian barrel dident win the wc with it or anything....

this is entirely true, in fact he has never won the world cup; that title has belonged to minnaar, peat, rennie, peat, and minnaar in the past 5 years respectively. though if you are suggesting he won the world championships simply becasue he had a floating brake . . . . well, whatever lets you sleep at night i suppose

also, fabien is an engineer by trade. . . probably convinced that the funky brake system he has on his bike makes him faster. but that's all that matters, really, if he thinks his bike is faster that way that's what is important. confindance in everything.

he set his bike up to squat under braking because he felt it loaded the suspension going into turns and the rebound of the suspension upon exit helps spring him formward and force the tires into the ground (think brake induced berm shot). maybe it compliments his style, or maybe it is just in his head, but either way he seems to think it makes a differeance and that makes it worthwhile. if you think a floating brake will help you, it will. if you think it won't, then it probably will not. . . again, confindence is everything and dh racing is at least 30-50% mental.

how many times have i listened to amateur racers rave about the extra speed and traction they are finding from their new tires, yet they are runing 50-60psi??? as long as it makes you feel fast . . . .

 

[lankyride]

this is true, so it all depends in my style of riding and my level.

YES!!!!

End of thread!!
nothing more needs to be said.

 

[shock]

you are never supposed to brake IN a turn anyways...

I know I should just leave this alone, but it's like watching a train wreck, I can't look away...

One of the most interesting comments made by the enire Giant DH team (Jared, Dustin and Tara), was that, with the floater, they could now brake IN A TURN!!! The specifically made comments that previously, if they had to, the back end would skip out on them, but with the floater, they could brake while entering, and deep into the turn. This allowed them to entire the turn much faster, and shave seconds off their times......

 

[shock]

. i would bet most of the guys on here saying floaters aren't necessary or noticable are semi-pro and pro racers whose ability pretty much negates the need for floaters anyway . . .

Actually most (if not all) of the people saying floaters aren't noticable HAVE NEVER RIDDEN A BIKE WITH OUR FLOATER!!!!! This has been one of the most frustratiing things about these floating brake threads. ALL of the naysayers, HAVE NEVER USED OUR FLOATER!!!

How on earth can you ligitimately make a comment about a product you have never used?

Instead, maybe ask people that have tried threir bike with and without them...

http://www.nsmb.com/gear/therapy_02_05.php

http://www.mtbr.com/reviews/disc_brake_system/product_88934.shtml

 

[shock]

i actually disliked the feeling of the floater on my 223, it felt like i lost feel for the rear

That comment kinda reminds me of similar comments people would make when suspension first started appearing on bikes. They felt they lost "feel" for what the tires were doing on the ground....like they needed to feel the "roughness" to know their tires were on the ground....Didn't make much sense then....

Keeping in mind I have never done a back-to-back test on the Orange floater..

 

[ride_fast]

brake jack dosnt exist. its all lies.

 

[Zutroy]

Actually most (if not all) of the people saying floaters aren't noticable HAVE NEVER RIDDEN A BIKE WITH OUR FLOATER!!!!! This has been one of the most frustratiing things about these floating brake threads. ALL of the naysayers, HAVE NEVER USED OUR FLOATER!!!

How on earth can you ligitimately make a comment about a product you have never used?

Instead, maybe ask people that have tried threir bike with and without them...

http://www.nsmb.com/gear/therapy_02_05.php

http://www.mtbr.com/reviews/disc_brake_system/product_88934.shtml

Why that might be the case sometimes, I do beleive several of us on here, said we have, or do use them myself included. I personally have not felt a huge advantage to them, and i know for a fact a floater does not give you the ability to brake in a turn magically, rear wheel skipping in the main problem with braking in a turn.

 

[davetrump]

Actually most (if not all) of the people saying floaters aren't noticable HAVE NEVER RIDDEN A BIKE WITH OUR FLOATER!!!!! This has been one of the most frustratiing things about these floating brake threads. ALL of the naysayers, HAVE NEVER USED OUR FLOATER!!!

How on earth can you ligitimately make a comment about a product you have never used?

Instead, maybe ask people that have tried threir bike with and without them...

http://www.nsmb.com/gear/therapy_02_05.php

http://www.mtbr.com/reviews/disc_brake_system/product_88934.shtml

SHOCK...

please stop spaming us with self promotion of your company. could you instead just put up a link to your website? surely your website must have all this info as to why we all need your product on it, yes?

people have their reason's for liking and not liking floating brake systems. please stop trying to shoot everyone down in an effort to push your product. enough is enough of the self promotion.

 

[shock]

and yeah, this nonesense about riders going "seconds" faster with floaters is just that. nonesense. . . . or spam

By nonsense, do you mean that you personally haven't experienced it, so it can't make sense?

By spam, do you mean presenting positive results about our product from back-to-back testing with some of the best riders in the world?

I am not spending the time and energy I've spent over the years to propogate lies, or sell snake oil, or convince people they need something they don't (and I'm certainly not getting rich from it). The physics behind floating brakes are very real, and the results very quantifiable.

Again, all floaters are not created equal, they do not all do the same things. Do you NEED one, of course not, we'd all be dragging our feet on the ground to stop if we had to.

But again, can 100% of our customers be wrong? Has anyone ever seen a negative review of a Brake Therapy floating brake? I haven't. And no one has EVER asked for their money back, even though our money back guarantee is in force.
If it didn't work do you think these customers would rather keep it on their bike, or get a $300 refund?

 

[shock]

Why that might be the case sometimes, I do beleive several of us on here, said we have, or do use them myself included. I personally have not felt a huge advantage to them, and i know for a fact a floater does not give you the ability to brake in a turn magically, rear wheel skipping in the main problem with braking in a turn.

Does that mean you HAVE tried one of our floaters?

 

[Zutroy]

Does that mean you HAVE tried one of our floaters?

Yeah, i've been on yours (on a tomac), Foes, Chumba, and the protos we did at storm, both versions.

 

[shock]

SHOCK...

please stop spaming us with self promotion of your company. could you instead just put up a link to your website? surely your website must have all this info as to why we all need your product on it, yes?

people have their reason's for liking and not liking floating brake systems. please stop trying to shoot everyone down in an effort to push your product. enough is enough of the self promotion.

I did not start this thread (although I have and will start floating brake threads when i think it's of interest).

But when I feel there is misinformation, I will attemp to correct it. What I am shooting down is people making comment about our products, when they've never tried them.

I mean the thread is about floating brakes, who has more right to comment if not us/me? When some people make comments that imply we are dishonest, or selling a product that does not work as advertised, I will continue to address them.

If you are interested in floating brakes, this should all be relavent to the thread, if not, you can chose not to read it....

Oh, here's the link to the website...www.therapycomponents.com

But what that doesn't provide is an open discussion with a range of opinions and experience. I do enjoy them, and of course my business benefits from them. I just want the discussion to be honest and up-front, and I certainly want my experience to be heard...

 

[shock]

Yeah, i've been on yours (on a tomac), Foes, Chumba, and the protos we did at storm, both versions.

email me if you get the chance bikes@therapycomponents.com, I'd like some input if you have the time..

But which Tomac, lawill or single pivot? And I'm assuming the floaters on the Foes, Chumba and Storm were not ours?

 

[RhinofromWA]

I did back to back runs down Snoqualmie a few years back in the rain (Early spring w/some snow on the hill still) and can say there was a profound difference with and without the floater on my Rotec.

I had ridden my Rotec with a floater since I purchased the bike. After 2 years of riding my bike, Sully had a direct brake mount available for me to try. I rode it once down the hill and scared myself half to death.

Now you can make your own assumptions from that story. I bet I could adjust to riding without a floater if I had to, but the bike braked with a much more relaxed stance/action with the floater. It made the choice simple to me. The floater was better, by a big margin, for me. I have never wanted to take it off since then.

Your results may vary.

Rhino

PS- this is the 99ish floater. Pre-Brake Therapy units on Rotecs. The unit on my Rotec is dang near a perfect Parrallel-a-gram(sp? )

 

[Zutroy]

email me if you get the chance bikes@therapycomponents.com, I'd like some input if you have the time..

But which Tomac, lawill or single pivot? And I'm assuming the floaters on the Foes, Chumba and Storm were not ours?

Yeah the Tomac was the single Pivot, and was yours. The others where the companies that made the frames.

Now i will agree any lawill design NEEDS a flaoter no, if ands or butts.

I'll shoot ya off an email here.

 

[klunky]

I used a brake arm on my Trek Diesel that I purchased through Brake Therapy.
I noticed the difference straight away especially on Fort Bill due to the length of the course.

I wanted the upgrade to prevent brake squat and thought "**** it if it does not work i dont have to pay for it"

The level of service I recieved from Brake Therapy was absolutley outstanding probably the best level of customer service I have experianced anywhere.

I dont feel that my current bike (sunday) requires a brake arm but if I ever ride another single (high) pivot bike chances are I will be giving brake therapy my cash.

 

[meatboot]

Just to add to the mix:

I couldn't find pics, but I distinctly remember MBA doing a bike check on Cedric Gracia before the Geminis came stock with floaters; his had a custom wide rear end and floater.

DW seems to have designed the Empire with a floater although the I don't think the Sinister Splinter uses one, despite being a similar design.

 

[zedro]

gotta love the double standards and bends in logic here. Arguing that if you brake properly you dont need the added traction and/or suspension stability that 'some' floater setups provide is like saying you dont need a (ahem) lightweight race bike if you're a good athelete who can man-handle the rig too.

It's been proven already, floaters can have benefits, it's just another tuning option that works on paper and in real life, but like anything on this planet is never absolute. Some people like to be purists for the sake of it, some like to KISS, some cant afford it. Christ lets start arguing how really good riders can blow others away on hardtails instead of mearly touching the surface on so called braking ability.....

Who the hell cares.

btw, Shock can talk about floaters if DW can talk about his link and Canfields about their bikes and anyone else who talks about their sponsors...oh wait, this is about being popular isnt it

 

[shock]

I did back to back runs down Snoqualmie a few years back in the rain (Early spring w/some snow on the hill still) and can say there was a profound difference with and without the floater on my Rotec.

I had ridden my Rotec with a floater since I purchased the bike. After 2 years of riding my bike, Sully had a direct brake mount available for me to try. I rode it once down the hill and scared myself half to death.

Now you can make your own assumptions from that story. I bet I could adjust to riding without a floater if I had to, but the bike braked with a much more relaxed stance/action with the floater. It made the choice simple to me. The floater was better, by a big margin, for me. I have never wanted to take it off since then.

Your results may vary.

Rhino

PS- this is the 99ish floater. Pre-Brake Therapy units on Rotecs. The unit on my Rotec is dang near a perfect Parrallel-a-gram(sp? )

hey Rhino, just wondering if you felt you could atribute a time savings on a DH run with the floater

 

[shock]

Yeah the Tomac was the single Pivot, and was yours. The others where the companies that made the frames.

Now i will agree any lawill design NEEDS a flaoter no, if ands or butts.

I'll shoot ya off an email here.

I'll return your email in a bit, but just to keep everything in the open...

Was it your bike (Tomac)? did you get the chance to try it with/without? If it was your bike, did you want your money back after buying it?

 

[shock]

I used a brake arm on my Trek Diesel that I purchased through Brake Therapy.
I noticed the difference straight away especially on Fort Bill due to the length of the course.

I wanted the upgrade to prevent brake squat and thought "**** it if it does not work i dont have to pay for it"

The level of service I recieved from Brake Therapy was absolutley outstanding probably the best level of customer service I have experianced anywhere.

I dont feel that my current bike (sunday) requires a brake arm but if I ever ride another single (high) pivot bike chances are I will be giving brake therapy my cash.

Hey Klunky, I wanted to ask the same question I asked Rhino, Do you feel you could improve your times with a floater vs without? If so, any idea how much?

And thanks for the kind words about our CS. We do like our customers, and try to take care of them.

On another note, the sunday floater is coming, same money back guarantee, just to plant a seed.....

 

[kidwoo]

On another note, the sunday floater is coming, ...

Uh oh.

 

[zedro]

Uh oh.

yeah someone should just delete the thread lol

 

[ride_fast]

if I ever ride another single (high) pivot bike chances are I will be giving brake therapy my cash.

Brake jack dosnt exist. its all lies.

 

[zedro]

Brake jack dosnt exist. its all lies.

however excessive squat and suspension unloading, and kick and chatter from traction loss does....

 

[shock]

yeah someone should just delete the thread lol

Well, I actually meant "plant the seed", in reference to get the customer thinking....not to ignite yet an even more contentious, angry, violent volitile discussion of which suspension designs might benefit.

Because that wouldn't be the spammer in me, but the shivt stirrer, which almost hardly ever never comes out usually normally.. and I don't have the time....

Zedro, what are you doing for a living these days anyway.....

 

[zedro]

Well, I actually meant "plant the seed"....

Zedro, what are you doing for a living these days anyway.....

actually we were refering to you wandering into a potential..make that imminent minefield....some things are sacred here

i picked up a design job at a small firm doing interior completion stuff for Bombardier's buisness aircraft; Catia V5 stuff. It's been cool and hopefully we'll branch out to different design areas this comming year. And meanwhile I still need to design some mods to get my bike sturdy(er) again...

 

[shock]

actually we were refering to you wandering into a potential..make that imminent minefield....some things are sacred here

i picked up a design job at a small firm doing interior completion stuff for Bombardier's buisness aircraft; Catia V5 stuff. It's been cool and hopefully we'll branch out to different design areas this comming year. And meanwhile I still need to design some mods to get my bike sturdy(er) again...

Yea, but I wasn't wandering...I love skewering sacred cows, even if they eventually turn out to be my own.

But someday, I'm gonna need some help from a young, sarcastic, know it all, it's hard to do it all myself between floaters, internally geared hubs, shocks, forks, new frame designs...why am I wasting time on these forums anyway.

 

[MOTODH]

On another note, the sunday floater is coming, same money back guarantee, just to plant a seed.....

wait what, supposedly the sunday is neutral to brake jack what would a floater do take away brake squat, im confused

 

[Jm_]

wait what, supposedly the sunday is neutral to brake jack what would a floater do take away brake squat, im confused

For that to happen, the rear triangle would have to NOT rotate as it went through travel. Since that is a physical impossibility, the sunday is defintely NOT nuetral during braking.

 

[MOTODH]

For that to happen, the rear triangle would have to NOT rotate as it went through travel. Since that is a physical impossibility, the sunday is defintely NOT nuetral during braking.

thanks


one more thing, since the sunday feels "neutral" under braking how much difference would the floater make?

 

[General Lee]

"Several seconds"

and depending who you ask it will also wash your bike for you at the end of practice

 

[zedro]

But someday, I'm gonna need some help from a young, sarcastic, know it all, it's hard to do it all myself between floaters, internally geared hubs, shocks, forks, new frame designs...why am I wasting time on these forums anyway.

well you have my number...uhh sorta. And hopefully I could afford to help on on a project one day

 

[dhkid]

just a thought, having a floater and all might nuetralise the braking forces from you suspension but then whats the use of that if you run slow rebound, and your suspension wouldn't be able to react to braking bumps and end up still skipping over them anyways?