[sokoloka]

There was a time when a bike company just couldn't hang out with the cool kids unless there was some sort of wacky gearbox bike in the prototype workshop, but now they're rarely seen. Sure, we still have Nicolai and GT making them and a few even lower-volume operations from Brooklyn and Honda, but I think we can agree they're pretty uncommon.

So what happened? Why did they exist and why did they disappear? Was it a poor concept that existed only until the novelty wore off? Did other technologies improve and eliminate the advantage of the gearbox design? Were/are we just not ready for something so different?

I'm lusting for a good, techy discussion, so I'd love to hear some highly informed opinions.

Let's get our nerd on!

 

[stiksandstones]

Like anything, they are all still very prototype-not proven by a racer, etc...I rode the GT one for 2 days in whistler last year and I hope to use it again-I loved it that much and it was trouble free-BUT, you could never race it, the GT one anyway, still needs some refinements.

But as a 'riding whistler' bike it was pretty fantastic, I just had issues when trying to hang with some pro people (pedal lag, quick shifts, the usual quick thinking racey movements you have to do). If I were in the market for a DH bike, I would consider one, for sure, as long as I was not joe racer guy....which seems to be the trend anyway.

 

[gemini2k]

ya, i bought the it-1 last year, and for what it was designed for, easily the best bike out there. good value too. But yes, it is by far the least efficient bike i've ever ridden. not incredibly quick, and fairly heavy, and gearing is too wide. but it does have some pluses that would make it an amazing race bike. ability to shift whenever, where-ever, rockgardens, while airborne, in turns, all really smoothly, plus, low pedal feedback, and the thing never needs to be adjusted, i mean NEVER

 

[vitox]

i think your thread should be titled "gearbox bikes: when are they coming"?

 

[no skid marks]

Hmmm Lahar,GT,Nicolia are producing as many as they can make I'd say,well I know Lahar is and I'm guessing the Nicolias are selling well,perhaps it should read Gearbox bikes when are more coming. The three companies above sorta have Freeride and DH fairly covered,with only personal preferances(geometry,etc) limitting them.Their gearboxs are fairly well sorted and by far the most reliable maintanence free drive systems MTBs have seen.Well the Lahar and Nicolia,not sure how the lil Nexus is holding up in the GTs.
All the big players have messed about with the only available slap in set up(G-Boxs),I'm not sure why any of them aren't touching the Rohloffs.Possibly to reliable or a deal can't be struck with Rohloff. Damn I wish they'd just do a lighter thumb shifting 7 speed.
Oh yeah and Brooklyn aren't in the game as yet.
Hastle every industry person you come accross so they see the markets desire for them.

 

[EVRAC]

I think it's only a few years before it's way more mainstream. With so many good garage builders out there there's tonnes of creative thinking. What I'm most excited about is the all new 9-speed g-boxx with trigger shifters and custom cranks. Bolts into a standard mounting pattern so it's easier to design a frame around it.

The other cool option is what Lahar, James Dodds and Rob Metz are doing with hubs mounted high in the frame. Onboard brakes maybe?

Can't wait to see BCD's cogbox.

Anyways, here's Steves Big Gearbox Bike List:

Builders:
- Lahar www.laharbikes.com
- Honda www.honda.com
- GT www.gtbicycles.com
- B1 www.beone-bikes.com
- Nicolai www.nicolai.net
- BCD www.bcdracing.com
- Orange www.orangebikes.co.uk
- Nox cycles www.noxcycles.com
- Alutech www.alutech-bikes.com
- Solid bikes www.solidbikes.de
- MBK
- MSC www.mscbikes.com
- Racebike www.racebike.cz
- Ellsworth www.ellsworthbikes.com
- Richi-engineering www.richi-engineering.de/images/gallery/71.jpg
- BikeSchrott
- Centurion
- Diamondback www.diamondback.com
- Kelly's bicycles
- Devilwork cycles www.dw-cycles.com
- James Dodds - ex Keewee top10 pro (Dh derinbox, onboard diskbr)
- Rob Metz -Ex Avanti/Keewee designer (all mountain derinbox)
- Krutor www.krutor.cz/bikes/hrotor/cz.htm

Gearbox web resources:
G-BOXX.ORG www.g-boxx.org

Gearbox makers:
- Suntour www.srsuntour-cycling.com
- Universal Transmissions www.g-boxx.com
- Hayes www.hayesdiscbrake.com

Hub makers:
- Shimano www.shimano.com
- SRAM www.sram.com
- Sturmey-Archer www.sturmey-archer.com
- Fallbrook Technologies www.fallbrooktech.com
- Nupace www.freeridehubs.com

Rumors:
Rocky Mountain? Specialized?

mmmmm, gearboxes.

 

[gemini2k]

I'm not sure why any of them aren't touching the Rohloffs.

price yo!!! the rolhoff hub is like 900, the nexus on the gt is 170. BIG difference (retail prices i think)

 

[no skid marks]

Yeah it's a pity about that,if they just took the chance at whatever cost to the consumer once they'd gained reputation from lack of maintanence and great reliability people would work out that they save in the long run.
I wonder what the G-Box fee is for the manufacturers.

 

[jet]

Wasn't Hayes doing something really simillar to the honda gear box?
I think they even had a patent on it. It may be the one Ellswotrh is using.
I would love to see gearboxs's's''s. Hopefully SRAM is working on one. Then the riders will like it. And be able to use it however they want.

 

[Fly]

Yeah hayes had a system a little like Honda, cassette in a box type arrangement. It was bought out by someone else and patented I beleive? Its called the Petespeed system at any rate. I have a few pictures, but would like some more if anyone has some? I will be attempting to replicate the design, for my own uses.

I don't think GB bikes are dead, I just think the initial hype surrounding all the companies bringing out GB prototypes has lulled. Hopefully the major players all keep working on the designs, and stepping it up.

 

[luelling]

Wasn't Hayes doing something really simillar to the honda gear box?

They bought it from B-1, its called Petespeed. Their pros were using it for a while, not sure about now.

 

[vtminuteman]

A gearbox bike would really help a privateer pro compete. Factory pro's get there bikes cleaned and adjusted every race run so a derail. bike doesn't effect there performace.

 

[joe99]

Rumors:
Rocky Mountain? Specialized?

mmmmm, gearboxes.

Just wondering why the rumours surrounding the above two? Is the Rocky Mountain rumour due to the images thats were on g-boxx.org?
Joe

 

[gemini2k]

Yeah it's a pity about that,if they just took the chance at whatever cost to the consumer once they'd gained reputation from lack of maintanence and great reliability people would work out that they save in the long run.
I wonder what the G-Box fee is for the manufacturers.

are you being sarcastic, im not really sure what you are trying to say

 

[rosenamedpoop]

Factory pro's get there bikes cleaned and adjusted every race run so a derail. bike doesn't effect there performace.

It does when they get ripped off the bike.

 

[dw]

I think it's only a few years before it's way more mainstream. With so many good garage builders out there there's tonnes of creative thinking. What I'm most excited about is the all new 9-speed g-boxx with trigger shifters and custom cranks. Bolts into a standard mounting pattern so it's easier to design a frame around it.

The other cool option is what Lahar, James Dodds and Rob Metz are doing with hubs mounted high in the frame. Onboard brakes maybe?

Can't wait to see BCD's cogbox.

Anyways, here's Steves Big Gearbox Bike List:

Builders:
- Lahar www.laharbikes.com
- Honda www.honda.com
- GT www.gtbicycles.com
- B1 www.beone-bikes.com
- Nicolai www.nicolai.net
- BCD www.bcdracing.com
- Orange www.orangebikes.co.uk
- Nox cycles www.noxcycles.com
- Alutech www.alutech-bikes.com
- Solid bikes www.solidbikes.de
- MBK
- MSC www.mscbikes.com
- Racebike www.racebike.cz
- Ellsworth www.ellsworthbikes.com
- Richi-engineering www.richi-engineering.de/images/gallery/71.jpg
- BikeSchrott
- Centurion
- Diamondback www.diamondback.com
- Kelly's bicycles
- Devilwork cycles www.dw-cycles.com
- James Dodds - ex Keewee top10 pro (Dh derinbox, onboard diskbr)
- Rob Metz -Ex Avanti/Keewee designer (all mountain derinbox)
- Krutor www.krutor.cz/bikes/hrotor/cz.htm

Gearbox web resources:
G-BOXX.ORG www.g-boxx.org

Gearbox makers:
- Suntour www.srsuntour-cycling.com
- Universal Transmissions www.g-boxx.com
- Hayes www.hayesdiscbrake.com

Hub makers:
- Shimano www.shimano.com
- SRAM www.sram.com
- Sturmey-Archer www.sturmey-archer.com
- Fallbrook Technologies www.fallbrooktech.com
- Nupace www.freeridehubs.com

Rumors:
Rocky Mountain? Specialized?

mmmmm, gearboxes.

Good list, you could add Evil Bikes to your list. http://www.evil-bikes.com/structures_2013.htm G-BOXX 1 is my personal pet project. I did all of the design work for it.

 

[gemini2k]

just out of curiosity, why would replaceable chainstay's be patentable, can't you make the argument that most dualies have "replacable chainstays" in the form of swingarms? I'm no patent expert but, just curious.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

I rode for Nicolai in '05 and two guys on the team rode gearbox bikes. I rode them a couple times on DH courses and I think they feel great. The Rolhoff gearbox gives very crisp shifting anytime, no waiting. It's really nice to come in pinned setting up for a turn braking hard and shifting at the same time. Obvious benefit for racers. The Nicolai TST is really adjustable as far as travel and geo also.

I did have some issues with them though. For one the bike is heavy, it would be a challenge to keep weight in the low 40s. Two, while the Rolhoff shifts very well it has way to many gears for DH at 14, and it only comes in twist shift. Three, is the price to consumers, these bikes are not cheap.

So, I see gearbox bikes as a definite improvement over standard drivetrains in every way once we get the price and weight down, and use specific gearing and ergonomics is refined.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

Good list, you could add Evil Bikes to your list. http://www.evil-bikes.com/structures_2013.htm G-BOXX 1 is my personal pet project. I did all of the design work for it.

Any DW link gearbox DH frame ideas floating around currently?

 

[dw]

just out of curiosity, why would replaceable chainstay's be patentable, can't you make the argument that most dualies have "replacable chainstays" in the form of swingarms? I'm no patent expert but, just curious.

It was a design for a hardtail street frame where you could bolt on chainstays after you ground the heck out of them. I abandoned the patent bacuase I didn't think it would pay itself off in the end, but no prior art was foind in the search, and my attorneys believed it was patentable.

 

[dw]

Any DW link gearbox DH frame ideas floating around currently?

The 2013i is still alive, and there are plenty of ideas, but I have to be honest and say that derailleur bikes have improved a lot and are still improving. Gearbox bikes are possible, but they will have a steep climb to knock derailleurs off the top. I am still enthusiastic about the idea, but right now I just have things that are more important to me to work on.

 

[gemini2k]

p.s. that look like a sick hardtail. prices?

 

[gemini2k]

It was a design for a hardtail street frame where you could bolt on chainstays after you ground the heck out of them. I abandoned the patent bacuase I didn't think it would pay itself off in the end, but no prior art was foind in the search, and my attorneys believed it was patentable.

fair enough

 

[rosenamedpoop]

The 2013i is still alive, and there are plenty of ideas, but I have to be honest and say that derailleur bikes have improved a lot and are still improving. Gearbox bikes are possible, but they will have a steep climb to knock derailleurs off the top. I am still enthusiastic about the idea, but right now I just have things that are more important to me to work on.

It's definitely true that this newest gen of derailleur/shifter stuff is good. Especially SRAM. But the benefits of gearbox shifting haven't changed. It's less delicate, and you can shift any time. Derailleurs hanging back there is like walking around with your intestines hanging out, your asking for trouble. I just snapped another derailleur last week.

 

[dw]

I think that there can be benefits to gearbox bikes and also detriments. I bought the first Nicolai Nucleon ST imported into the USA and did a good amount of testing before I did the develoment work on the first G-BOXX that Karl Nicolai and I put into the show bikes and eventually Karl sold. Things like shifting on the fly sound pretty good, but for my personal riding style I found it to be a non-issue. Before I owned the bike I thought that it would make riding easier and cut down race times, but in reality, the shifting had basically no effect. If a gearbox bike can be truly maintenence free with no efficency and suspension drawbacks then I think they can be viable commercial products. Time will tell.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

Is there a noticeable drop in power transfer efficiency compared to a traditional drivetrain?

 

[dante]

A gearbox bike would really help a privateer pro compete. Factory pro's get there bikes cleaned and adjusted every race run so a derail. bike doesn't effect there performace.

Or it could completely kill the privateer pro. Imagine a gearbox frame that gave a significant advantage to the rider but cost in the realm of $10-15k (20k?). Suddenly the top 50 WC riders and anybody who's got the cash will be showing up on it, discouraging others who can't compete on "normal geared" bikes. Would you race if you knew that some mid-pack pro could pay for one and win each time? lthumbsdown: DH right now is one of the few competitions where people can generally compete on equal level equipment.

 

[Whoops]

cost?

When you can buy a fully tricked out Lahar for < NZ$10K?


(note RRP for a Factory Sunday is about NZ$9.5K)

That's like buying Schumachers F1 Ferrari car for the price of a Fiat Panda.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

cost?

When you can buy a fully tricked out Lahar for < NZ$10K?


(note RRP for a Factory Sunday is about NZ$9.5K)

That's like buying Schumachers F1 Ferrari car for the price of a Fiat Panda.

Wait, you guys have money in New Zealand? I thought you were still bartering with nuts, berries and sticks on fire.

 

[Honus]

Or it could completely kill the privateer pro. Imagine a gearbox frame that gave a significant advantage to the rider but cost in the realm of $10-15k (20k?). Suddenly the top 50 WC riders and anybody who's got the cash will be showing up on it, discouraging others who can't compete on "normal geared" bikes. Would you race if you knew that some mid-pack pro could pay for one and win each time? lthumbsdown: DH right now is one of the few competitions where people can generally compete on equal level equipment.

I doubt think there will ever be any one bike design that will give anyone that clear of an advantage- it has happened in other forms of racing from time to time but I just don't know if it would occur in downhill racing. The very best bike in the world may give a top level competitor an edge but it won't make you something you're not to begin with. If you were riding the RN-01 do you think you'd beat everyone else in your category every time?

I do however think it would be interesting to have a "spec" series race once a year- kind of like what they do in rally racing with the Race of Champions where everyone uses the exact same equipment.

 

[binary visions]

Or it could completely kill the privateer pro. Imagine a gearbox frame that gave a significant advantage to the rider but cost in the realm of $10-15k (20k?). Suddenly the top 50 WC riders and anybody who's got the cash will be showing up on it, discouraging others who can't compete on "normal geared" bikes. Would you race if you knew that some mid-pack pro could pay for one and win each time? lthumbsdown: DH right now is one of the few competitions where people can generally compete on equal level equipment.

You really think a gearbox frame will have that significant an effect on race times? I doubt it.

If anything kills the ability of the privateer to compete on equal footing, it will be a company like Honda that throws a ton of money at suspension parts, IMO.

 

[no skid marks]

I don't think the Honda has anything on the Lahar. The Lahar weighs in the low 40s,has one of the best suspenson designs,is reliable,stiff,maintanence free virtually(probably an hour tops once a year with a new chain and gearbox oil for the drive train)etc etc.
Pfft how has the deraileur changed? It's still just as vunerable as your nuts,still has the same weight on the rear wheel retarding suspension livelyness,still just as fidley and unreliable,still just as perishable wear wise. Positive change for the deraileur would be ten steps backwards to 7speed or less with a better/stronger dished wheel,more reliable,less fidley,crisper,stronger.
Deraileurs have done their day.Unless in a box perhaps. C'mon ****manno let the cat out of the bag,what have you got up your sleeve,you've drained the market long enough for their cash with the deraileur.Step up to the Rohloff.

 

[binary visions]

I don't think the Honda has anything on the Lahar.

Notice I said if and will - I don't think the RN01 frame by itself (and the associated "gearbox" or whatever they were planning to do with it) would have given any huge advantage, but I think that the potential for extremely high end suspension parts could impart a bigger advantage to a competitor that would simply not be available to the general public.

It'd require a more profitable sponsor than most bike companies, though.

 

[Pip3r]

i think the advantage of being able to shift without pedaling is absolutely huge. Maybe not so much so on faster WC courses but I know on a lot of the tight stuff we have at races on the East Coast, as well as in the mud it would definitly be a significant advantage. Not saying that its going to win the race for you but still...

 

[Banshee Rider]

i think the advantage of being able to shift without pedaling is absolutely huge. Maybe not so much so on faster WC courses but I know on a lot of the tight stuff we have at races on the East Coast, as well as in the mud it would definitly be a significant advantage. Not saying that its going to win the race for you but still...

I agree, in the hands of the right rider it could really be a significant advantage!

Although the sourpuss comments about winning boiling down to skill have obvious merit, I think the concept of gearbox is pretty sweet. I don't see them making a leap into the mainstream for a few more years, atleast not with an equal affordability/performance ratio, but when they do I'll be pretty excited!

 

[SuspectDevice]

When I can get my hands on a servicable Gboxx compatible gearbox for $700 or less I will certainly build and race one. The Boxes just aren't available yet. When they are, a whole hell of a lot of people (me especially) will be glad to get rid of external deraileurs on our dh race bikes.

 

[vtminuteman]

I think my point was missed, gearboxes will level the playing field(some not all) when it comes to privateers vs. factory pro's. I don't think many true privateers have a personal mechcanic to handle there bike so they can focus just on riding. Factory pro's don't benfit from a bike that has less service hours per riding hours, but racers wrenching there own bike's do.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

I think my point was missed, gearboxes will level the playing field(some not all) when it comes to privateers vs. factory pro's. I don't think many true privateers have a personal mechcanic to handle there bike so they can focus just on riding. Factory pro's don't benfit from a bike that has less service hours per riding hours, but racers wrenching there own bike's do.

The single biggest advantage any rider has is that they are fast enough to win a world cup. The biggest disadvantage any rider has is that they aren't fast enough to win a world cup. Cedric at Fort Bill '06. Cedric and Peaty and 3/4 of the top 10 at Brasil '06. Mick Hannah at the first 3 WC rounds '05. And on, and on....

It seems obvious that gearboxes are the future. It will take a dedicated effort from a group of good minds with good funding and we could have it in couple seasons. And, when it comes it will be great, and there will be guys who can still win on derailleurs until they stop making them.

 

[Whoops]

Wait, you guys have money in New Zealand? I thought you were still bartering with nuts, berries and sticks on fire.

We moved to the metric system a while ago (pronounced: meh-trIk... something that's too complex for those in the USA to understand), and switched from nuts/berries etc etc at that time.

The nuts were ok, but the berries caused problems in vending machines (the juice shorted electrics out)... and the burning sticks.... well - you've heard of money burning a hole in your pocket.... those damn sticks took it to a whole new level!

 

[rosenamedpoop]

The nuts were ok, but the berries caused problems in vending machines (the juice shorted electrics out)

You have machines too?!