[toodles]

They're putting a lot of effort into winning World Cups and Championships, and signing some of the biggest names out there. That kind of thing seems to be aimed at marketing something rather than just conducting R&D.

 

[Transcend]

I don't get this. Aren't Honda still claiming they have no plans to market the RN01? What's their reason for the patents then? Just to keep us all using old technology for another five years until the patent expires? Or are they trying to deceive us and in fact once all the patents are aproved, they'll magically wheel out an RN01 that we can rush out and buy?

Last official word is that they WERE hoping to take it to mass production.

Final Update: Official word from Honda is in! According to Ryuichi Nakajima, head of public relations at Honda Motor Co., Ltd. headquarters, the Honda bike has not ye begun its production. However, he went on to confirrm that Honda will be proceeding with production on it.

"As you know, Honda hopes to mass-produce the "RN01" which is currently used in U.S. and Japanese downhill races. However, we have not concretely proceeded with any plans including mass production"

 

[no skid marks]

Having the transmission on the swingarm allows for more suspension design possibilities. I find the "mass centralization" and less unsprung weight arguments of gearbox bikes to be overhyped anyway... The real advantage here is reliability.

Why would you not take every advantage a gearbox provides? Why would you want any weight at the end of a long arm retarding the supleness of the suspension when that weight could be between your legs and acting as a counter weight for the suspension to work against. Why wouldn't you run a high pivot and milk all the bennefits. What type of bike are you riding and why?

 

[noskcaj]

I wonder if Honda has those patents so they can apply them to small motorcycles like scooters, mopeds, etc. I understand the current gearboxes for motorized vehicles work ok, but perhaps they are trying to research in a new direction to make them lighter, more effiecient or more user friendly some how.

 

[WheelieMan]

Why would you not take every advantage a gearbox provides? Why would you want any weight at the end of a long arm retarding the supleness of the suspension when that weight could be between your legs and acting as a counter weight for the suspension to work against. Why wouldn't you run a high pivot and milk all the bennefits. What type of bike are you riding and why?

Of course you don't want the transmission weight at the end of the swingarm. But can you relocate the transmission to the mainframe and still have the desired pivot location, suspension rate, seatpost adjustability, etc... while keeping the weight increase reasonable? It's not an easy task.

Eliminating the derailleur and cassette and adding a gearbox will add 2-3 pounds or more to the bike in order to reduce unsprung weight by 20-25 percent. The net benefit is not as significant as some make it seem.

An internally geared hub at the axle will create an unsprung weight penalty, but to me the ability to add a transmission that is very reliable and can shift at any time to any bike on the market is well worth the penalty. Especially considering that every gearbox frame currently on the market costs twice as much as a normal frame.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

It seems likely that Honda hasn't written off any future avenue for the generation of revenue, and I would imagine the current justification for all the r&d spending is that they will end up with patents for all the better gearbox variations, which can then be licensed to other companies in the future for big long term returns. I would be very surprised if there weren't some high level political pushing to make the RN project last.

 

[no skid marks]

Of course you don't want the transmission weight at the end of the swingarm. But can you relocate the transmission to the mainframe and still have the desired pivot location, suspension rate, seatpost adjustability, etc... while keeping the weight increase reasonable? It's not an easy task.

Eliminating the derailleur and cassette and adding a gearbox will add 2-3 pounds or more to the bike in order to reduce unsprung weight by 20-25 percent. The net benefit is not as significant as some make it seem.

An internally geared hub at the axle will create an unsprung weight penalty, but to me the ability to add a transmission that is very reliable and can shift at any time to any bike on the market is well worth the penalty. Especially considering that every gearbox frame currently on the market costs twice as much as a normal frame.

The Lahar achieves all the above,it runs a full length post,great pivot location,weighs around the 40lb mark and costs no more than any quality frame,in the long run probably costs no more than a giant.
Don't get me wrong here,geared hubs are still better than a deraileur.
Gearbox bikes do not have to be standardised any more than normal bikes,the G-Box standard limites design a bit but thats a first attempt and just an option.
More than likely a roller or two chains will need to be used for any good design but that applies to derailuers also for most good designs. The trade off for better suspension over miminiscule drag(prob no more than a guide blah blah) is an easy win in my mind.
But yeah a 6 speed light box or hub would be ideal for DH.
It would appear that patents are going to push gearbox bikes back five years for most companies anyway unfortunately.
By doing prototypes have companies assured any safety from patents?

 

[MrPlow]

Lahar's are superb, and IF ONLY AARON STOPPED BANGING ON ABOUT THEM ON THE INTERNET AND STEPPED UP HIS MARKETING AND PRODUCTION TO MATCH HIS HYPERBOLE, then there'd be no doubters and everyone would love them as much as Sunday's.

Here here. Seems Aaron has lost the plot a bit, counter marketing his product instead of getting a descent friggin website! Looks like a primary school project.
I like the idea of the Lahar also, but (as Aaron will rebutt with some R&D BS) The geometry scares me somewhat. As does the looks.

Where is BCD's Cog box though?? Comooon, I am bustin to see this!

I'm currently working on my own gearbox frame using a nexus 7spd hub. When I was inspecting the internals i noticed Shimano uses a relatively thick gear grease rather than gear oil in the hub. I was thinking perhaps there would be less drag if I clean all the gears and pawls and put new synthetic gear oil in (Redline). To contain the oil, I was thinking of sealing up the hub a bit better with some hub seals and it is also in a location which is shielded from direct spray.

What do you guys think about doing this?

Go for it mate, but out of interest why did you go with the 7 speed over the 8? Did you have one already?? There is more to the 8 speed than just one extra gear too, they shift a hell of a lot quicker.
And for the record, although not really tested, I have an 8 speed nexus, the first thing I did is what you were talking off, ditch the grease and replace with some gear oil.

Hope your design gets off the ground better than mine, I just keep changin my mind! Now I am moving to the UK so I guess it is on hold for even longer.

 

[sayndesyn]

I'd like to get a cheap motel room and spend a night with that bike.

[/QUOTE]

 

[3D.]

I'll have to look it up for you when I get some time. what's your e-mail address? Some of their gear reduction models are defintely pretty cool for sure, and all of the IP stems as continuations and CIPs from that first patent application. It's an impressive volume of work they have there. Enough to make me decide to concentrate my efforts elsewhere.

Hey, that would be great, when ever you have extra time. shiftshaft1@yahoo.com

I hear ya on giving other projects attention. Trying to compete with a think tank that has it's own wing of the building, a multi-million dollar budget, and a machine shop to boot, is a rather daunting task.

For now I have (1) published application (USPTO) parent design that I spent a year or two developing, to stay on top of things I need to still submit two other variations some time this year.

Have you completely abandoned your tranny efforts for now, or are you still brewing up a design or two?

 

[ÆX]

.............. I find the "mass centralization" and less unsprung weight arguments of gearbox bikes to be overhyped anyway... The real advantage here is reliability.

you hold around 1lb at arms length and move it up and down fast
like what your swingarm is doing and you can feel the advantage.

i'll call you on this, IMO this is the best advantage in gearbox bikes.
the time spend pedaling VS times you bike is searching for traction
is like 80-20. i don't slow in corners till my back end breaks loose.
with more REAR tire traction on a gearbox bike this happens less.
a lot less. its crazy how your rear wheel holds.


central weigh actually feels weird b/c your front end is heavy and
takes some getting use to in the air.

obviously the lack of maintenance is huge too.

alex

 

[ÆX]

Here here.

Where is BCD's Cog box though?? Comooon, I am bustin to see this!

ger.

well i can't show anything yet, but it doesn't infringe on any patents
that i have read. not that i am going to get it patented. it will be open
source.

uses simple available cogs and shifters. it will NOT fit the gboxx standard. it will be lighter and smaller than anything i have seen
so far.

alex

 

[noskcaj]

Go for it mate, but out of interest why did you go with the 7 speed over the 8? Did you have one already?? There is more to the 8 speed than just one extra gear too, they shift a hell of a lot quicker.
And for the record, although not really tested, I have an 8 speed nexus, the first thing I did is what you were talking off, ditch the grease and replace with some gear oil.

Hope your design gets off the ground better than mine, I just keep changin my mind! Now I am moving to the UK so I guess it is on hold for even longer.

Yea, i already have a 7 speed nexus laying around off an old commuter. I have stripped it completely down and documented all the internals with pictures, diagrams, etc. I can post this in a separate forum sometime if there's interest. As far as shifting speed, i'm modifying the internals so that it can shift with a servo rather than cables, and so far it can change gears pretty dang fast.

 

[xy9ine]

Yea, i already have a 7 speed nexus laying around off an old commuter. I have stripped it completely down and documented all the internals with pictures, diagrams, etc. I can post this in a separate forum sometime if there's interest. As far as shifting speed, i'm modifying the internals so that it can shift with a servo rather than cables, and so far it can change gears pretty dang fast.

very cool. i'd love to see the dissection. the servo sounds rad. you big geek.

i'm also a little curious what it would take to remove the multiplier gear mechanism from a rohloff & turn it into a 7spd - if it's at all technically feasible, and if so, what the weight savings would be...

 

[Tetreault]

i for one will never understand the point of a centralized hub i would much rather have a frame with i good suspension platform then a heavy single pivot or a link activated single pivot bike, a canfield f1 with a nexus hub (even tho i dont think shimano makes one with the rite spacing) would perform and feel alot better in my eyes. internal shift boxes do however seems like a better and more logical fix to the problem, the days someone makes a shift box that can easily be opened and the ability to change cogs and even run a stock derauiler in the can will be the day people will no longer have to deal with broken hardware

 

[noskcaj]

very cool. i'd love to see the dissection. the servo sounds rad. you big geek.

An electrical engineer would have it no other way But the servo is a small part in a much, much bigger plan. I don't plan to patent any of the work, but I want to finish it all and test it before I announce anything.

 

[no skid marks]

i for one will never understand the point of a centralized hub i would much rather have a frame with i good suspension platform then a heavy single pivot or a link activated single pivot bike, a canfield f1 with a nexus hub (even tho i dont think shimano makes one with the rite spacing) would perform and feel alot better in my eyes. internal shift boxes do however seems like a better and more logical fix to the problem, the days someone makes a shift box that can easily be opened and the ability to change cogs and even run a stock derauiler in the can will be the day people will no longer have to deal with broken hardware

Did you read BCds post above yours?
Canfield with a Nexus,and what would that weigh? And what is it's wheel path? And how would any of that be better than the Lahar?
Don't get me wrong I dig the cannefield with or without a Nexus would be great but I'd just like to hear your reasons.
Yes yes BCD where's the Cogbox?
Can't we have some small trivial pics of the new frame?
Pllllleeeeaaase.