[Dave_Schuldt]

To those who I saw that told me they were building some trails I did call my county parks contact and let him know what you said. If you did build anything it wont be hard to find. If you realy want to do something for your sport go lagit. bbtc.org Your 'tude makes me laugh. If you see any pirate trails up there let me know and I'll pass it along.
Thanks, Dave

 

[carbuncle]

Yeah, because the BBTC is such a fantastic supporter of freeride trails anybody's plan to "go legit" should involve the BBTC... Gimme a break.

 

[Borneo]

Carbuncle, you have no idea....

Building on your own is gonna happen, it always has and always will. Frankly, I enjoy it. But...

The key is where. Knowing what the kand manager is about is everything. In the Grand Ridge case, King Co really has it's eye on this area and there's already been some FR stuff taken out of there in the past. No matter what Dave spews.

King Co has nearly completely flipped from being what many would have called "anti-mountain bike" to very pro-mountain bike and some places are a little touchy right now for the greater good in the future. Hang on a little longer and you'll find out. "Legit" FR is coming to King Co and the BBTC is on point with it... (Dirt Corps too...)

As with many things in history, the old phrase can apply here. "We have met the enemy, and the enemy is us..."

Just doing what you want, where you want can have longer term repurcussions so thinking first helps. Plus, who wants to put a lot of effort into something that just gets torn down? I don't like it.

 

[hungryleprican]

I'm a little confused

 

[Skookum]

Yeah, because the BBTC is such a fantastic supporter of freeride trails anybody's plan to "go legit" should involve the BBTC... Gimme a break.

What's a better plan then? What's the better group to align with?

Dave doesn't represent the BBTC, neither do i, and neither would you if you join. But you would have a say if you are an active member.

BBTC didn't have hardly anything to do with Grand Ridge trail, all the work parties were through the WTA, but Dave did tons of work out there and would post work parties through the BBTC website.

He's got a vested interest out there so he's choosing to take his own action to protect the trail out there. Dave's not into riding Freeride, but on a work party last week he was skinning the bark off of 10 foot half sections of Western Cedar, that are going to be made into log rides at Colonnade.

Now if you ask me personally if i would play the part of trail police, i would not be into that. But that's me, but i will call it as i see it and i see Dave at a hell of lot of work parties respresenting mt. bikers.

i look on advocacy like a big ole bus, and once aboard you get a say in where it steers toward.

So get on the bus or create another bus, but if i remember correct you're always baggin out on BBTC, so hopefully this post either will make sense to you, or just piss you off. Either way, whatever....

 

[Skookum]

I'm a little confused

Translation...

Bob says if you're going to build "non-legit" trails, do it where there's not a microscope. A microscope where other groups can come in and say "mt. bikers suck, let's close more trails" other b.s. things other groups with no life like to say about us....

 

[carbuncle]

A group reply, if you will:

If you realy want to do something for your sport go lagit. bbtc.org Your 'tude makes me laugh.

A: My name is T Simek, and I am a member of the BBTC.

B: The guy makes himself a mouthpiece for BBTC via the above-listed quote, which by my direct knowledge and experience of individuals I have encountered in work parties and on the trail is a fairly standard mindset for a solid sampling of the organization.

C: "So get on the bus or create another bus, but if i remember correct you're always baggin out on BBTC, so hopefully this post either will make sense to you, or just piss you off. Either way, whatever...."

A quick search of my posts will show the truth of my statements here regarding BBTC, which hardly constitute a history of slagging, bagging or otherwise providing belligerent critique . In fact, the thread that ties them all together is this: BBTC is not a freeride organization, and loons like the originator of this thread prove it regularly. But your post doesn't anger me, I've suggested forming a local freeride-specific organization in earlier posts. As I recall, BBTC members criticised that suggestion and suggested that BBTC was far more progressive and freeride-friendly than the truth of the last couple of years has born out.

Speaking of said loon, I love the I have reported you to the authorities, join us or else implication of the post that started this thread. People of this sort do more to hurt the rep of BBTC than any teenagers on Stinkys building bootleg jumps on your hallowed ground ever will.

 

[hungryleprican]

Translation...

Bob says if you're going to build "non-legit" trails, do it where there's not a microscope. A microscope where other groups can come in and say "mt. bikers suck, let's close more trails" other b.s. things other groups with no life like to say about us....

ok got it


thanks for the clear up

 

[iridebikes]

illegal trails will happen. There's no way around that. BUT, if we do build trails with the BBTC, or at least go about it the proper way(talking to land owners and such) The trails will stick around for much longer.

Wouldn't you rather put in the time towards something that will be around for more than a few months? Wouldn't you like to be able to go ride somewhere and not have to worry about getting kicked out or ticketed for trespassing?

The more we build illegal trails, the more they're not going to want us around at all.

And being a tool doesn't help either side's argument.

 

[fuzzycatnuts]

Most of the trails on the north shore were built illegally at first, torn down and rebuilt. Those dj's here in seattle(I forget the name) were built illegally at first too, before the city aproved them. They knew the city would never aprove it untell they saw it. I see how the freeride stuff at grandridge would look bad on mnt bikers tough. Maybe the city and forest service would realize if they gave us a spot to build we would not have to build random illegal trails all over the place.

How did the people at black rock or post canyon go about making there trails liget? We need to do somthing like that. As the sport becomes more popular and mainstream we will see more spots like these, and more ski resorts doing the bike park thing in the summer.

 

[ffonsok]

yeah this is the kind of thing that gets Grand Ridge shut down. The county was nice enough to give us this land for riding, lets not ruin it shall we?

People of this sort do more to hurt the rep of BBTC than any teenagers on Stinkys building bootleg jumps on your hallowed ground ever will.

haha stinkys.... the name says it all

Just out of curiousity, what did these guys look like and what section of trail did you see them on?

 

[Borneo]

This thread pops up way too often here.

Essentially, "The BBTC is not FR and we need to organize ourselves to represent FR and DH in the community..."
Blah, blah, blah...

Tracy, I'd like to know where you're getting that impression. It isn't from riding with me....

2 years is a teeny tiny microcausim(sp?) in the mtb time line. It's barely enough time to get the paperwork started to build legal FR/DH stuff.

Patience is often preached here, as is getting involved. But, sadly, what usually is seen is a lot of typing and "just riding".

I can't wait for a few things to come public so all you "BBTC is not FR" folks can eat crow.

 

[trailhacker]

I think the point is that if you choose to bulid illegal then go to it. Just don't whine and bitch when it gets shut down.
Been there, done that. A LOT!
But if your going to go comando with renenegade trails (DNR's term), have a little respect for the people that work hard to get areas approved for new trails and build somewhere else.
Haven't ridden GR since about 1993 but from what I understand they are allowing people (BBTC) to actually build trails there and allowing them to have some "freeride" features. What kind of frikin' moron does it take to think that they have some right to then go into this area and build whatever they want?
If I had a lot of my personal time vested in the proccess of getting it approved, then actually building it I would turn you in too. If I was out there and came upon some things that haven't been appoved I would rip down first thing.

Sorry if I missed something where-as this was given the official OK to be built, but who's the idiot that built a pump-track at St. Edwards/Finn Hill? And not hidden away where no one will find it, but right in the middle of the area that only a year or so ago was re-vegitated after they tore down the "renegade" DJ's that had been built there. When I saw it I was temped to start knocking down the jumps but said to myself "this has to have been approved because no-one could be so stupid as to build in THIS spot".
Again, if this has been given the go-ahead by the powers that be then disregard my last statement. But if someone says here or PM's me that it isn't OK, I'll start knocking them down next time I'm there.

 

[Snacks]

Sorry if I missed something where-as this was given the official OK to be built, but who's the idiot that built a pump-track at St. Edwards/Finn Hill?

They at least could have built one with more flow!

 

[ffonsok]

hmmm i thought the flow track had been approved-- i havent ridden it but i thought i heard talk about it on here a couple weeks ago

 

[evilbob]

Nope not approved, if it was you could be certain somebody from the BBTC would have posted that up. There truely are people in the BBTC that are more FR/DH oriented and they are trying to get more stuff approved and built it just takes time. Some of the things being worked on are being held very close and kepted very quiet just like many trails that don't exist. The reason is so everyone dosen't just go in and randomly build because we got the green light. Maybe some who post seem a little over the top and tend to earn themselves and the BBTC the image of trail nazies but I know that these same people are the ones who have been giving up their ride time to work the political end so we can have trails we don't need to hide. Allot of time and effort is given by these people so we can actually use somebody else's dirt for everyone's fun. Most of these threads are fueled by those that are impatient, that think that because they put a little sweat out on somebody else's dirt they have rights. Well news flash nobody has any rights unless they are earned. My thumbs up for those that go out and earn the right to have trails for the rest of us and if a few of us who are impatient (or just don't care) piss these people off, well they are angry because the few are risking all, all that they did not earn. You and I for that matter may not care for the way he (or others ) choose to post but I fully support Dave's position and how he handled it. Good job Dave you have earned the right to say something.

 

[Dave_Schuldt]

If I hadn't ratted someone else would've, like some local hiker, who could've raised hell w/ KC Parks.
Note to trail builders-
Pick a place that isn't so visable, when DH bikes start popping out on the the RR grade it will be obvious what's going on. When the wether gets nice there's lots of people around.
Flame on....

 

[ffonsok]

If I hadn't ratted someone else would've, like some local hiker, who could've raised hell w/ KC Parks.
Note to trail builders-
Pick a place that isn't so visable, when DH bikes start popping out on the the RR grade it will be obvious what's going on. When the wether gets nice there's lots of people around.
Flame on....

i wouldnt exactly say Flame on man.... most people are agreeing with you- mabye its coming in the near future but i just feel like the FR niche just isnt here yet

 

[Dave_Schuldt]

yeah this is the kind of thing that gets Grand Ridge shut down. The county was nice enough to give us this land for riding, lets not ruin it shall we?


haha stinkys.... the name says it all

Just out of curiousity, what did these guys look like, what kind of bikes were they riding, and what section of trail did you see them on?

Don't realy know what they looked like, they were maybe 30 feet away. Early 20s? They were on foot. I saw them just before I hit the unfinished bridge. Just after the top of the climb off the RR grade.

 

[ffonsok]

whaaaaa unfinished bridge??? so you rode up from the bottom? If I were riding down from Grand Ridge Drive, where would it be?

sorry it just still isnt clear to me

 

[Skookum]

A group reply, if you will:



A: My name is Tracy Simek, and I am a member of the BBTC.

B: The guy makes himself a mouthpiece for BBTC via the above-listed quote, which by my direct knowledge and experience of individuals I have encountered in work parties and on the trail is a fairly standard mindset for a solid sampling of the organization.

C: "So get on the bus or create another bus, but if i remember correct you're always baggin out on BBTC, so hopefully this post either will make sense to you, or just piss you off. Either way, whatever...."

A quick search of my posts will show the truth of my statements here regarding BBTC, which hardly constitute a history of slagging, bagging or otherwise providing belligerent critique . In fact, the thread that ties them all together is this: BBTC is not a freeride organization, and loons like the originator of this thread prove it regularly. But your post doesn't anger me, I've suggested forming a local freeride-specific organization in earlier posts. As I recall, BBTC members criticised that suggestion and suggested that BBTC was far more progressive and freeride-friendly than the truth of the last couple of years has born out.

Speaking of said loon, I love the I have reported you to the authorities, join us or else implication of the post that started this thread. People of this sort do more to hurt the rep of BBTC than any teenagers on Stinkys building bootleg jumps on your hallowed ground ever will.

Some validity there certainly. i hope you remain a member and we'll see if time dulls the axe blade you seem to like to bury into the club, and into poor Daves skull. All the same critisism is fine as long as it's founded and something constructive can come from it. You come to an awful lot of conclusions based on what you want to see. And i gotta say i don't come to all the same conclusions you do.

As far as researching your prior posts, i don't have that much time on my hands lately. i just remember a post where someone got all bent on me (i think a Tiger Mt. debate...), and that's fine. i really don't mind too much as long as it don't get too personal or redundant.

But again i don't have time to break down your arguments and show you how illogical "some" of them are.

But i will say a basic philosophy of strength being in numbers is significant. Mt. Bikers as a whole united, we're still small peanuts to other very proactive user groups out there who can make life harder for those who ride EVERY type of trail. Going off half-cocked, right or wrong, will certainly keep the group honest as we go along. But going around calling people loons and then tying in your disagreement to support your crusade to undermine the club? What does that get accomplished. Just a bunch of rabble on the net, and an unnecessary coup i suppose....

So form your group already, call it the Freeride Revolution. Go make a North Shore so i can ride it already. Go man go, do it! i'm waiting, hell i'll probably join so i can talk **** about it on the net.

 

[SeaPig]

YEAH! I wonder why just a little north of us the WHIMPs who were mainly XC have now added a FR element to there organizing and we down here fight about it all the time. Maybe it has to do with the lack solutions available, but really, does it have to be like that. We all ride bikes. It's not like we are talking about skaterslthumbsdown:

Trail advocacy is a balancing act (god I love the smilies today.)

Too much finger pointing and people not working with the clubs that already exist, etc., only throws the balance off.

I have one suggestion. Let BBTC organize a meeting for anyone that is interested in FR or DH to come and voice their concerns. This meeting shouldn't be an ego fest, just a chance to talk about what exists as far as riding spots, what forces are against us, and what we can do to organize with existing clubs and present a united front for going forward. It should be an opportunity to suggest solutions and listen to people's reasons why your solution should work or not work.

 

[ffonsok]

gosh... mabye i should sell my bike and start riding my scooter again.

naww..... i'll just keep posting random comedic posts having nothing to do with the topic at hand in an effort to derail the current conversation.

 

[dh gangster]

"Pick a place that isn't so visable, when DH bikes start popping out on the the RR grade it will be obvious what's going on."

Uh, my friends and I already ride DH bikes down grand ridge for some quick training, but that doesn't mean were building freeride stunts or anything.
Are you saying that would be bad for the trail system?

just wondering.

 

[dh gangster]

"Pick a place that isn't so visable, when DH bikes start popping out on the the RR grade it will be obvious what's going on."

Uh, my friends and I already ride DH bikes down grand ridge for some quick training, but that doesn't mean were building freeride stunts or anything.
Are you saying that would be bad for the trail system?

just wondering.

 

[carbuncle]

Good points all around, and a slightly more balanced reply from Dave Schuldt puts a better spin on the original issue. For Skookum, I think you are remembering someone else, man, seriously. Save the bitterness for that guy. For the freeride bit, I know now what your magical mystery plan is (the "Backside Bicycle Trails Club" received a generous grant from the county recently...) it it sounds like a cool idea, and I am not slagging BBTC. Goading, is more like it. If I was a true detractor, I wouldn't have renewed my membership after an impassioned post from Justin changed my mind in an earlier thread of the same ilk. Nor would I be offering my assistance wholeheartedly when this new skills park gets underway, which am and will be when the work parties start. I just hope this thing gets underway before the powers that be put the kibosh on the flowpark and softies...

The gist of my original post is this (without knowing what really went down with Dave Schuldt and the rampaging renegades he originally posted about): don't brag about ratting out someone's trails, then huff and puff about going "lagit" by hooking up with an (excellent, admittedly) XC organization notable mostly (to date) for getting and keeping St Ed's, Tolt-McDonald and Tiger open and going. It just rubs one the wrong way. But really now, would a hater actually join the organization?

 

[ffonsok]

But really now, would a hater actually join the organization?

yeah i can see how they would, sorry to shat on your idea

Lets put it this way. I can see where Dave is coming from from a political standpoint, but I can also see where carbuncle is coming from on a rider's standpoint. I personally would not mind seeing well made freeride stunts away from the main trail in the general grand ridge area, but it is obvious that illegal trail building is not going to get the job done.
Both valid points...

Yet I propose something different. I suggest that we go to the BBTC with the idea of opening up Grand Ridge to dirtbikes, ATV's and jeepers.
Then having a few FR and DH stunts won't seem so bad!!

 

[Skookum]

Yet I propose something different. I suggest that we go to the BBTC with the idea of opening up Grand Ridge to dirtbikes, ATV's and jeepers.
Then having a few FR and DH stunts won't seem so bad!!

Haha nice...

And sorry if i'm coming off too bitter, it's difficult to not be percieved as bitter i suppose, but i was trying to just be blunt.

 

[Str8OutaBallard]

but who's the idiot that built a pump-track at St. Edwards/Finn Hill? And not hidden away

They at least could have built one with more flow!

I pretty sure both of you peep's know him... pm me if it's important to you

 

[Str8OutaBallard]

...Good job Dave you have earned the right to say something.

sure both you guys have done a lot of good for mtn biking here in W Wa...

however the phrase earning the right to say something is seriously subjective...

it's called free speech and an internet connection

 

[evilbob]

sure both you guys have done a lot of good for mtn biking here in W Wa...

however the phrase earning the right to say something is seriously subjective...

it's called free speech and an internet connection

Yea yea I guess you made your point about free speech bla bla bla but that's not really the issue here now is it, guess you missed the issue completely in an effort to win another bravo hope you feel good.

 

[Str8OutaBallard]

choose to post but I fully support Dave's position and how he handled it. Good job Dave you have earned the right to say something.

Just trying to point out how your making this thing sound like an us and them thing when you say "...you have earned the right to say something..."

which is divisive... but I'm sure that's not your intention, right?

truth is as long as you don't piss off the admins on here you can say next to anything you want...

there are a lot of peeps that would rather ride than build... infact in the past I've dated gals that were BBTC and I was like hey there is a trail maintence day this weekend let's go help out... and they are like no lets go skiiing...

I've helped out w/the Colonade project a few times and I'm scheduled to do some work out at PA Thurs and Fri...

my point is saying somebody earned the right to say something really dosn't encourage anybody but the peep's you already know...

you can say what you will but it's only in your eyes saying that somebody has "earned the right"...

being divisive dosn't encourage other people that you don't know...

 

[seand]

YEAH! I wonder why just a little north of us the WHIMPs who were mainly XC have now added a FR element to there organizing and we down here fight about it all the time. Maybe it has to do with the lack solutions available, but really, does it have to be like that.

When a few of us started riding Galby (5+ seasons ago..don't really remember) the whimps seemed very anti big-bike. I honestly do not remember the source, or if it is even still online, but there was this huge to-do regarding man-made stunts. This was not the case right away but it did follow shorty.

**my time line may be off...I don't remember the exact string of events but you will get the idea**

At the time the land ownership changed and word was floating around that they trillium) did not want any elevated stunts. Trails like chutes n ladders got nuked...and nuked bad. Soon to follow came Shawn's trail when someone with a saw was nice enough to drop his logride. The trail after his trail, now known as Not Shawn's (which was called Huck It by Jacob and ... I dont remember his name now) had this amazing skinny line after the rock-roll that is decommed now. That too faced the same fate.

Shortly after a serious uproar (well it seemed serious) rumors started floating around that it was not the land owners that were making a big deal over the stunts, but it was whimps who wanted to keep the xc riders happy. Is this true? I certainly do not know. ...Anyways the rules magically changed from what I read in various forums that now anything up to 4 feet was okay and thus the FR/DH reshaping of upper mountain started. I thought the logging was a bad thing as the routes I used to take there were all but gone; little did everyone know that with the needed re-birth of the trails a new style of building would come into play.

I am thankful that the whimps now stand behind what Hawk and his FR building crews are doing; as is everyone else who rides their trails. I only wish that we could have something like that down here. More on that later!

We all ride bikes. It's not like we are talking about skaterslthumbsdown:

I assume you are being tongue-in-cheek with this, but I can't tell. Assuming you are being serious; you do realize that skaters have some of the most well planned and orchestrated movements, right? The biking community could take a SERIOUS queue from how they managed to come from "skateboarding is not a crime" all the way to every region having at least one municipal funded skate park. How many bike parks (not skate parks that allow bikes) can you count in WA alone that are funded by govt and are legit? I am not talking areas that were grandfathered in (woodland park djs for example) but places like the whatcom dj park?

You may toss a big fat thumbs down at skaters but they aren't stuck driving 5+ hours in any given direction to find a legal bike park to play in



Now I know Justin and John have their hearts in the right place and I 100% respect them for all the work/effort they put forth but there is only so much an org can do when it has so many different user groups inside one larger container (mountain biking) to cater to.

I do believe we are one of the only states in this country that has a ski resort and has no lift accessible riding. I know it is not as simple as "get a bike org and the city together and work it out" but surely something has to give. Even a legit and legal riding spot like softies and the flow park that is not on the chopping block (for those who didn't already know, Seatac Parks/Rec has a golf course planned for the entire south seatac park area) would greatly benefit all the riders. An area like the dozens of skills parks all over BC (such as the surrey bike park) would benefit so many riders looking to learn skills in a safe and controlled environment; clinics could be taught there!

Wow, this thread really went way off from the parent poster!

 

[evilbob]

Just trying to point out how your making this thing sound like an us and them thing when you say "...you have earned the right to say something..."

which is divisive... but I'm sure that's not your intention, right?

truth is as long as you don't piss off the admins on here you can say next to anything you want...

there are a lot of peeps that would rather ride than build... infact in the past I've dated gals that were BBTC and I was like hey there is a trail maintence day this weekend let's go help out... and they are like no lets go skiiing...

I've helped out w/the Colonade project a few times and I'm scheduled to do some work out at PA Thurs and Fri...

my point is saying somebody earned the right to say something really dosn't encourage anybody but the peep's you already know...

you can say what you will but it's only in your eyes saying that somebody has "earned the right"...

being divisive dosn't encourage other people that you don't know...

Your still trying to hard and still missing the point. That's still ok no probs.

 

[Str8OutaBallard]

Your still trying to hard and still missing the point. That's still ok no probs.

"Roger that" I "copy" your point about not building freeride stuff at Grand Ridge (unsanctioned irate2: )...

I thought I'd just drop my 2 cents in the mix...

 

[bent^biker]

or we could all give the finger to king county and move to canada

 

[muddy beast]

I just wanted to throw it out there that my local trails are illegal, the Japanese gultch in Everett. However, its still a well known place and riden/hiked/walked on EVERYDAY by several people. Although its illegal and people rip stuff out and put "no trustpassing" signs up all the time, its still very active. It comes to a point of illegal building, where its just better for the comunity. People can do what they want when they want to, and people stop caring because its so important for our community.

thats my 2cents, I didnt read it a second time and I've had a bad day...forgive me if its WAYYYY off anything.

 

[Str8OutaBallard]

or we could all give the finger to king county and move to canada

the thought crosses my mind daily... I even have a Canadian g-friend now... but she lives in Magnolia... oster_oops:

 

[Borneo]

Is it ok to publically state that legal bike parks in WA are coming???

But, my thinking is that those areas will still not be "enough" to completely curb illicit building. The legal stuff probably won't be "big enough" for the "core" hucksters among us and they'll go out in the woods and build their road gaps anyways.

But, it will be a start.

There's always so much talk about the DH and FR oriented folks getting together on this list. Long timers know it's been thrown out there for years now with no results. I just wish some would step up and put their money where their keystrokes are... then, we could move on to riding at those places topics instead of rehashing this one over and over again.

 

[bent^biker]

you damn tease.....give us something about what is on the way or at least an opportunity to help out.

*smack*

that was for thinking about saying collanade
(just for the record I have put hours in down there)