Maybe he should of stated that many people that claim to be Christians don’t actually practice Christianity are there to get what they want, while they hurt beliefs of others who do practice Christianity by the word of God.
How can Christians support both?
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Or maybe you shouldn't get butt-hurt over his completely valid observation that a lot of people who openly claim to share your belief system suck as human beings.
No, I am not going to get butt-hurt, whatever that means. But if he is going to make a false statment about my faith that digraces it, then I going to write try a statement to defend it. Maybe he did not bash the entire Chirstain Community..... This will go on on. I am going back to eating my easy mac
And so it is written.
However, you know as well as I do, that it doesn't work quite that simply. I could go on, but you already know the answer.
Hey, I'll leave you no doubt.
The entire Christian community sucks. The fact that they get up in arms about stuff like this is another example. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say Jesus himself would be hard pressed to find 1% of Americans who claim they are Christian who actually follow his teachings. And frankly, the minority that let the war mongering moralizing hypocrites take over their faith has to fix that misconception, not me.
I don't believe in your fairy tale anyways. Do you own goddamn PR...
Well that is what I am here, trying to fix this misconception. Thank you for your thought
ohh,sorry for my poor typing and grammer skills
It's not a "misconception" since misconception implies that it's not true. A vast majority of the Christian population doesn't even know the meaning of what they profess to believe.
The only thing that will change that is those people changing themselves. No ambassador on an internet message board is going to undo the damage that is done by such a large chunk of the general population. Until the day comes where the Christian community isn't composed of mostly pompous, overzealous and hypocritical douche bags, statements like BMXman's are going to remain entirely true. You characterize a population by its majority, not the tiny minority of Christians who are good people and follow the teachings of Christ.
Does this mean I get to make racist jokes?
Yes.
I think you are greatly overstating the issue. As with many people, you confuse Christian fundamentalism with Christianity. If you think that only 1% of Americans follow Jesus teaching, you must (1) be pretty confident in your abilities to interpret exactly what that is and (2) you must hold people to quite a high standard in relation to interpretation. I have doubts in your ability to interpret, just as I have doubts in your standards.
As with most things, the idiots on the end of the spectrum are the most vocal. Yes, there are a lot of conservative Christians in this country, but to say that the "war mongering moralizing hypocrites" run the show overstates the case and essentially disregards the normal religious experience of millions and millions of people (ie, lots of people go to church and don't hear about how bad gays are, how Iraq is awesome, etc). To think otherwise is wrong.
I agree. Something like 90% of Americans are claimed "Christians" right? And yet support of the war is somewhere around 25% now? Really not a majority of christians are doing much "mongering" at the moment anyway.
Christian fundamentalism IS Christianity in the United States. The "Christian Left" is as mythical as a unicorn...
My standards? The beatitudes would be a start. And those describe a Unitarian much more so than your average American Christian.
I agree with you on some parts, but also disagree with you on other parts. Yes, I am not going to change the world in msg. forums, but I might get some people to think. Also isnt this one reason why forums were started in the first place? If I quite down on subjects like this one, wouldnt I be letting the so called douche bags get the better of me and the faith I believe in?
I disagree and think Silver's point is a very fair one. It doesn't matter if the hate-mongering comes from a minority by the numbers; it is the loudest, most powerful message coming out of Christian America right now. If the vast majority is not fundamentalist extremists, the onus is on them to make it clear the extremists don't speak for Christians, either by convincing extremists to STFU or by overpowering the extremist voice with a more reasonable one.
What right do you have to tell non-Christians to not judge the whole, when the whole is standing by and watching the hate not just pour out but actually effect policy, media, and public opinion?
Where is the counterpoint to the hatred and bile? Where are the moderate Christian leaders publicly speaking out against the extremists. If anything a statistic like that would show just how spineless 65% of Christians are, since it's only the 25% that are being heard.
It's easier to sit in the pews without a spine.
Have you been to a church lately, Have you participated in any church activities or discussions or you do set in front of a tv or computer and let the media tell you those statistics
Where the hell did I leave my glasses?
....the rose colored ones.....damn it....
....the rose colored ones.....damn it....
I would disagree. Fundamentalism is not the reality for many people. Even within denomincations, this can vary considerably. The Christian left may be rather small (not mythical, though), but there isn't just left and right, you know- most people are somewhere in the middle.
And the beatitudes are not exactly a guide to life. They really don't show much content as far as how one should live and what one should believe. "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth"- how does that fit into the definition of a Christian?
As said by either Westy or Silver, "going to church makes you a Christian as much as standing in a garage makes you a car." Religion is about your personal relationship with God; using church as a measuring stick is unreasonable.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/12/06/MNG5TG3K661.DTL
Where are the "moderate" Christians? If they have a voice in this issue, where is it? Unless they come out and speak against the fundamentalist Christians, it's easy to gather that they're on the same side of the issue.
They may be in the middle, but they still vote to make sure that gay people are discriminated against because of the way God made them. You want a good example of what I'm talking about? After six years of acting as un-Christlike as possible, there are some Christians who are reconsidering George W. Bush. These same people still revile Jimmy Carter (who whatever you think of him as a president, has at least managed to live what an objective observer would see as a more "Christian" life than W.) Why? Because Bush tells them what they want to hear: Gays are bad, liberals are bad, and killing and torturing Muslims is a-ok because Jesus will sort them out.
As far as the blessed are the meek thing, that's easy. You know that person who lives a great life who you don't know is Christian because he doesn't wear it like a boyscout merit badge on his chest but because of the way he acts? That's the meek guy...
Well, the Pope was against the war from the start actually. Democrats in general who claim to be Christians are against it. Do those count as leaders? If you're looking for Jerry Fallwell you're going to be disappointed but the Catholics are opposed via the Pope's statements. Im pretty sure that gay preacher church is against it.
Just because someone doesn't try to scream louder than the competition and they don't necessarily have access to the media outlets that others have doesn't make them "spineless." Yes, perhaps moderates and liberals should be more vocal, but have you ever been a part of a group that got some bad press? What did you do, call CNN and develop a large multimedia conglomerate to combat it? I doubt it. What have you done to improve the crappy reputation that America has around the world?
Most people just live their lives. Besides, I find it inaccurate to assume that because two groups see themselves as Christian that they also see themseles as somehow in competition for PR. Lots of Christians don't really care that much about what other denominations say- it doesn't come up much in their lives.
Also, I hold people accountable for their representations of reality, not whether they can accurately describe common misperceptions as reality.
To the first point, I just think you are overstating the conservatism of Christians in the US.
To the second, an alternate way to view it would be that the politically weak will be rewarded at the end times (or some point in the future) with a reconstituted people, an ingathering in Israel and physical/political control of that land given to them, perhaps through divine power. I'd give that interpretation at least as much validity as yours, more if we are talking the intention of the author.
I'm going to leave this discussion before I start typing pages of rants.
It's not only "bad press." I've never met a group of people who were, by and large, as ignorant, intolerant and hypocritical as outspoken Christians. Sorry, but that's been my experience, and it's not been a limited amount of experience I've had, either.
There are a handful of great people who have been knowledgeable about their beliefs and respectful of others (a prime example was Andyman on this board) but for every one of those, I've met five who are ignorant of their own belief system, intolerant of anyone who doesn't fit into their narrow world view and incredibly hypocritical in their judgment of those around them.
That's not to say I will immediately dismiss someone if I know they are a Christian, but I have little sympathy when someone says Christianity is unfairly labeled.
That's all well and good, but since the vast majority of people in this country ARE christians, it doesnt surprise that most of the people you've met who have done anything in particular would be christians. If the most violent people Ive met in life happened to be black because I spent time in prison, would it be fair of me to characterize that race in such a way? Surely not. People are, in general, pieces of crap. The fact that some of them call themselves christian, IMO, at least makes them feel guilty some of the time for the crap they pull. It's a good thing for alot of folks and chastising "christians" for the mistakes of what are simply BAD PEOPLE is a mistake, to me anyway.
That's not even remotely the same thing. Comparing the vast majority of Christians I have met from multiple financial and ethnic backgrounds, in multiple states and in many social contexts doesn't compare to judging an entire population from a sample that specifically houses violent individuals.
Point is, most the people you've met are christians because most people are christians (at least in the US). Sine most people are inherently worthless, Christianity loses by defualt I guess.
anecdotally speaking, of course, would my opinions of unbelievers be just as valid due to the vitriol spewed here?
I don't buy it.
It's one thing to be an asshole, it's another to use the mask of Christianity to justify the bad behavior. Christian values are being taught poorly - instead of a message of tolerance and "love thy neighbor" it's a message of "gays are bad" and "non-Christians must be converted" and "anything in the name of God is OK."
Maybe if you removed those bad messages and poor values, all those people would still be intolerant idiots, but we'll never know that. Christianity doesn't lose by default if you assume most people are worthless. Christianity loses because the inherently worthless people are using their religion as the reason they act the way they do.
Sure. There's nothing wrong with speaking from personal experience as long as it's not confused with hard facts (as I hope I've done when stating things like "in my experience" and using anecdotes clearly labeled as such).
And God forgives them for all their behavior! What a deal. Where do I sign up?
have you ever peered into the religion of peace?
how many gay mosques can you name?
how many inter-faith ministries can you name?
how many non-believers are accepted as equal in society?
the scale does not begin to compare.
*sigh* I'll point out at a high level, that it feels good now because the additional power is being used in a way you like... but the power will still be there when we elect some socialist/commie/pinko that you disagree with.
Second, I don't know what magical power you have to prevent a dozen specific people from coming to a public gathering of thousands, but you could be making some good money off that.
Third, we have seen a huge pattern over the last 6 years of suppressing assembly, from quarantining protests to breaking up peaceful demonstrations, to the vilification of protesters by media and politicians. You are right now, at this very moment, undermining your own right to assemble. Bet you never knew you'd be able to **** yourself with a dick that small, didja?
Condi and Ashcroft have both pre-emptively strong-armed news outlets and publications. Access has been used a journalistic favor for self-censorship and jingoism, or punishment for speaking freely. You don't need an outlet shut down to know that you're not getting all of the information and opinion that's out there.
First immediate events: do you have any idea the size of the legal Hispanic population in the US. What makes you think that anything more than a small minority of the demonstrators in LA were illegal? What illegal would risk deportation when they know thousands of legals will be there to support their cause?
Second, I don't know what magical power you have to prevent a dozen specific people from coming to a public gathering of thousands, but you could be making some good money off that.
Third, we have seen a huge pattern over the last 6 years of suppressing assembly, from quarantining protests to breaking up peaceful demonstrations, to the vilification of protesters by media and politicians. You are right now, at this very moment, undermining your own right to assemble. Bet you never knew you'd be able to **** yourself with a dick that small, didja?
Not really sure what point your trying to make with all the grunting and arm-waving, but see blue's example of a successfully peaceful protest in Mexico.
Not since McCarthur wielded the word "communist" as a weapon have we had a term that instantly blacklists even the innocent as well as "terrorist" and "traitor." These are the tools of absolutism.
See patriot act. See illegal wiretapping. See presidential privilege. See American citizens imprisoned without warrant or trial.
You really do fail understand an erosion of rights until there is no earth left beneath you. You also fail to understand that an increase in governmental power is, by definition, a loss of individual rights.
Well then they shouldn't care when I call Christians a bunch of assholes. If they do care what I think of Christians, they'll start caring what other denominations are saying and how loudly they're saying it.
edit: I'll put it this way, compare the outpouring of dissent against George Bush in an effort to protect the image of being "an American" to the woeful lack of outpouring of dissent against fundamentalist extremism in an effort to protect the image of being "a Christian" (or "a Muslim" for that matter). You don't get to use apathy as an excuse. You can use apathy as a reason for the image but it's not an excuse.
edit 2: and yes, I was part of a group that was unfairly labelled... interestingly enough, I was a fratboy. At first I was very active in campus events and even the national media to change the image. Then I was very active internally to change the policies and behaviors of fraternities. Then I realized the inherent inevitiable downward spiral of the fraternity system and disassociated myself, rather than be characterized by the behavior of people far worse than me. Either take back the name "Christian" or find a new one.
If they explicitly credited their race as the reason for their own violence then yes.
the vast majority of <insert racial minority here> i've seen & interacted with are over-sexed, loutish, obnoxious, ignorant, smelly, boorish, misogynistic, socially & financially irresponsible rubes.
shall i write them off?
shall i make a point to share these anecdotes with anyone under my influence?
shall i have a lower standard for them?
shall i seek the comfort & acceptance of like-minded people?
do you see anything wrong with so easily expressing an opinion like this?
How you handle said situation is how you handle said situation. Pretty simple...