How to: Convert your lazy SPV 5th into a shimmed damper hottie
- Thread starter Fly
- Start date
just to bring this post up again, i want to ad a few links that shows image
3way Swinger dismantled, shows the piston and shims and all.
It looks pretty much the same on the 6way i guess.
http://happymtb.org/forum/read.php/1/661928/
same thread for DHX:
http://happymtb.org/forum/read.php/1/661268/
3way Swinger dismantled, shows the piston and shims and all.
It looks pretty much the same on the 6way i guess.
http://happymtb.org/forum/read.php/1/661928/
same thread for DHX:
http://happymtb.org/forum/read.php/1/661268/
TF tuned did, this to my 5th, and it made it amazing...only runs on shims, and only has rebound, everything else is pre set, but the platform valve is take out...(on a sunday so not needed)
SOOOOO much better
SOOOOO much better
Even with out a Control Valve in the 5th, you will still have Beginning and Ending Stroke adjustments.
I'm not trying to bag on anyone who's done this or is interested in doing this mod, I love to tinker too. But I'm curious...Is the set up of the 5th really that difficult that it's less of a hassle to disassemble 2 shocks, cannibalize them into one and rebuild?
It's worth noting that to remove the SPV unit on a "Sunday-Tuned" 5th, you will need to get a shim from a suspension tuning store or a 5th dealer. The shim works as a non-return (the SPV unit handles this duty normally) and stops the rebound flow shortcutting the rebound circuit.
This shim is 25mm OD, 8mm ID. Any thickness will do for the non-return duty, just bear in mind the thicker it is (more you use) the more compression damping you will be adding.
This shim is 25mm OD, 8mm ID. Any thickness will do for the non-return duty, just bear in mind the thicker it is (more you use) the more compression damping you will be adding.
In a word: Yes.
Huge difference.
Toodles: I also had this problem with a 'Sunday Tuned' shock a few months ago - pretty annoying huh. I couldn't get it (rebound damping) to work properly even with the addition of shims. That may just be because I did a bad bleed in frustration though....its dubious. I gave up and reverted to factory spec.
i am waiting for a donor metal as we speak. i would like to reduce the travel and stroke of the shox too, anyone know of a good material to do that? i was thinking of machining a nice teflon spacer to put under the main piston. but thats a bit too much work, might just go with a pvc pipe cut to length.
i would like to reduce the travel and stroke of the shox too, anyone know of a good material to do that? i was thinking of machining a nice teflon spacer to put under the main piston. but thats a bit too much work, might just go with a pvc pipe cut to length.
PVC pipe? How do you plan on reducing the travel? I'm not sure PVC pipe will do the trick....it may not be strong enough to withstand top out forces. Usually travel is reduced by machining the shaft down to the correct length, and re-tapping threads as necessary. Can you draw up in MS paint what you plan on doing? I'm interested.i am waiting for a donor metal as we speak.
Hmmm. Looks like a good idea, but if I were you, I really would be considering something that isn't going to shatter, such as nylon. Think about the forces put on that spacer every time you launch a jump, and the unweighted wheel, extended by both the spring and gravity. I'd make it nice and beefy, out of a softer polymer, so that you don't have to re-bleed when it breaks. Sweet idea though! Might play with it myself
spacer is in red. as long as you dont use huge amount of preload on the spring i think the pvc pipe will hold up. i am just going to use a 5th as a project shox on my bike. i will use the dhx for races.
yea, machining a teflon spacer would be nice. but in the true spirit of ghetto-ness i am still going to think about something else tho. machining involves money that i dont have. 
oh well, i'll pop by the machine shop and see if they have any scrap nylon of teflon.
i dont see any reason to shorten the shaft. although this will mess up the position sensitivity of the shox, adjusting the IFP depth would fix that though.
oooo, just had an idea. maybe i could cut up an old e13 bash. but that has problems with cracking when drilled. anyone have any ideas for a spacer?
oh well, i'll pop by the machine shop and see if they have any scrap nylon of teflon.i dont see any reason to shorten the shaft. although this will mess up the position sensitivity of the shox, adjusting the IFP depth would fix that though.
oooo, just had an idea. maybe i could cut up an old e13 bash. but that has problems with cracking when drilled. anyone have any ideas for a spacer?
People are using stacks of rubber garden hose seals to reduce travel in suspension forks. Probably won't be able to do the exact same thing here because of dimensions. Maybe trim down a rubber stopper like the ones used in chemistry labs?
Nylon bushings are cheap and easy to find at hardware stores or industrial supply houses, I think you could find something that would work as well or better than a PVC pipe for a lot less than it would cost to have something machined, maybe use a stack of nylon washers. Take a look at the selection at www.mcmaster.com in the search box type in nylon bushing and go from there.
Or if you know someone who works at a machine shop you might be able to get something simple made up for free. I'm not a machinist but it would only take me like 2 minutes to make a nylon spacer to some dimensions written on a piece of scrap paper. If it were Delrin I could do it a little quicker because it cuts easier.
Or if you know someone who works at a machine shop you might be able to get something simple made up for free. I'm not a machinist but it would only take me like 2 minutes to make a nylon spacer to some dimensions written on a piece of scrap paper. If it were Delrin I could do it a little quicker because it cuts easier.
yea, machining a teflon spacer would be nice. but in the true spirit of ghetto-ness i am still going to think about something else tho. machining involves money that i dont have.
i dont see any reason to shorten the shaft. although this will mess up the position sensitivity of the shox, adjusting the IFP depth would fix that though.
oooo, just had an idea. maybe i could cut up an old e13 bash. but that has problems with cracking when drilled. anyone have any ideas for a spacer?
Yeah, if you are using that spacer, it won't be necessary to shorten the shaft. That was just an example of how its usually done. Good luck with it, post pics when its done!
just some pics of it totally apart, there aren't any compression shims at all. i like how the LSR adjustment has a one way valve and would not effect the compression.
i even took out the LSC and HSC compression adjusters and the little check valve in the piggyback.
main piston, in order of left to right: spacer, SPV valve outer half, SPV inner half, main piston, HSR shims, main bolt with LSR one way valve.
i wanted to do a step by step thing, but i dont have my own camera. sorry guys. and sorry for the crappy pics too.
tips for you guys wanting to take your own shox apart, the IFP doesn't have a bleed valve like fox, so you need to force it out with pressure. i just filled the main body with water, closed it up, compressed the shaft. and repeated untill it was forced out. the IFP depth for a 8.75x2.75 model is 48mm to the middle of the IFP. there is no need to take out the check valves on the piggy back or the LSC and HSC adjusters, but i wanted to get to know the shox better.
unlike what i have heard, there are no compression shims at all. anyone opened up a 5th with compression shims? i dont think i would need a donor shox at all, plans for it now is just a spacer to replace the SPV valve and a shim to act as a check valve in place of the SPV valve, change the oil to a lighter weight, the oil that came in the shox was sikolene RSF 7.5wt, changing it to 5wt to speed up the reb, also taking one of the HSR shim out. and of course some sort of spacer to reduce the travel.
edit: just a side note, but for those that actually wondered what RSF oil tastes like, its actually taste like grape, bit ironic since its purple color. i wonder if 10wt will tastes like strawberry? since its red.
i even took out the LSC and HSC compression adjusters and the little check valve in the piggyback.
main piston, in order of left to right: spacer, SPV valve outer half, SPV inner half, main piston, HSR shims, main bolt with LSR one way valve.
i wanted to do a step by step thing, but i dont have my own camera. sorry guys. and sorry for the crappy pics too.
tips for you guys wanting to take your own shox apart, the IFP doesn't have a bleed valve like fox, so you need to force it out with pressure. i just filled the main body with water, closed it up, compressed the shaft. and repeated untill it was forced out. the IFP depth for a 8.75x2.75 model is 48mm to the middle of the IFP. there is no need to take out the check valves on the piggy back or the LSC and HSC adjusters, but i wanted to get to know the shox better.
unlike what i have heard, there are no compression shims at all. anyone opened up a 5th with compression shims? i dont think i would need a donor shox at all, plans for it now is just a spacer to replace the SPV valve and a shim to act as a check valve in place of the SPV valve, change the oil to a lighter weight, the oil that came in the shox was sikolene RSF 7.5wt, changing it to 5wt to speed up the reb, also taking one of the HSR shim out. and of course some sort of spacer to reduce the travel.
edit: just a side note, but for those that actually wondered what RSF oil tastes like, its actually taste like grape, bit ironic since its purple color. i wonder if 10wt will tastes like strawberry? since its red.
My 5th element air and coil didn't have any compression shims either, I had once mistaken the little shims sitting in a separate perch above the rebound shims as compression shims, but they only operate during the low speed rebound stages as you have indicated (they are being held by the circlip).tips for you guys wanting to take your own shox apart, the IFP doesn't have a bleed valve like fox, so you need to force it out with pressure. i just filled the main body with water, closed it up, compressed the shaft. and repeated untill it was forced out. the IFP depth for a 8.75x2.75 model is 48mm to the middle of the IFP. there is no need to take out the check valves on the piggy back or the LSC and HSC adjusters, but i wanted to get to know the shox better.
unlike what i have heard, there are no compression shims at all. anyone opened up a 5th with compression shims? i dont think i would need a donor shox at all, plans for it now is just a spacer to replace the SPV valve and a shim to act as a check valve in place of the SPV valve, change the oil to a lighter weight, the oil that came in the shox was sikolene RSF 7.5wt, changing it to 5wt to speed up the reb, also taking one of the HSR shim out. and of course some sort of spacer to reduce the travel.
edit: just a side note, but for those that actually wondered what RSF oil tastes like, its actually taste like grape, bit ironic since its purple color. i wonder if 10wt will tastes like strawberry? since its red.
Just a note to all trying to find a suitable spacer instead of the SPV valve: I've found you can use the inner part of the SPV valve as the spacer (same orientation as with original assembly - just without the outer and some compression shims) - I had done this with the Sherman SPV forks over a year ago so that I didn't need to get a different rod and piston to de-SPV it.
I will be doing this mod soon enough - and I'll be getting rid of some of those numerous large rebound shims that give it that super-slow initial-stroke rebound. Can't wait to tune it!
Good stuff Fly - You're the man!
What are those and where did you get them?
just to drill them out.
edit, i hope PVC doesn't react adversely with shox oil :0
I picked up a variety of nylon and aluminum spacers the other day. Also noticed a TON of different types in the plumbing "faucet parts" section.
btw guys. Just wanted to give you some extra images of this proceedure.
http://happymtb.org/forum/read.php/1/643861
All in swedish but still the pictures tell alot.
OBSERVE THE FOLLOWING BEFORE VIEWING THIS PICTORIAL:
The shimstack is not shown in the pictures, only how to do it and where
to put them.
Google translate can translate the page now, from Swedish to English,
not sure what it will do with all the technical terms tho.
http://happymtb.org/forum/read.php/1/643861
All in swedish but still the pictures tell alot.
OBSERVE THE FOLLOWING BEFORE VIEWING THIS PICTORIAL:
The shimstack is not shown in the pictures, only how to do it and where
to put them.
Google translate can translate the page now, from Swedish to English,
not sure what it will do with all the technical terms tho.
Last edited:
Awesome! Thank you for those.
It looks like you just used the inner half of the spv circuit as the spacer, right?
I was looking for spacers to do this the other day. Once I get my shop cleaned up I plan on taking lot's of step-by-step pictures for you guys.
It looks like the last picture is telling you not to use any shims on the compression side of the piston, bad idea if so!
I hope I'm not resurrecting a dead horse here, but I'm wondering if this mod works with the '08 Swinger X4's. The new swingers have a "dial" to adjust the bottom out rather than a hex nut. I don't know if the internals are the same but from what I understand talking to a Manitou Service Technician it sounds like they are. The dial (numbers 1-4) selects different volume "chambers" in the piggyback resivour as opposed to the nut which increases or decreases the overall chamber size.
I'd like to know if anyone has attempted this and what the results have been.
I'd like to know if anyone has attempted this and what the results have been.
I took apart the SPV valve in my swinger, and I used the inner part of it as a spacer, as shown in your last picture
My question is, did you use 5wt oil in your shock?
'cause I used 2,5wt, and there is no rebound in my shock
Will it be okay with 5wt oil?
in addition, I changed the o-ring (which keeps the oil inside) to a softer one, so the shock is now as plush as a dhx, but has no rebound yet...i guess it's because the oil...
thanks
conor
does someone have any 5th/swinger shims to sell me?
To the guy with the new X4 - yeah, should accept the mod no problem!
To the guy with no rebound - you HAVE to have a couple of compression shims to act as a one way valve, to force oil back through the variable needle rebound valve. If you've got those in, then yeah, 2.5wt is your problem. I have 5wt in my shock, and can't feel resistance until the last two turns of the rebound adjuster, where it has a nice range. I think you'd even be safe with 7.5wt oil!
To the guy with no rebound - you HAVE to have a couple of compression shims to act as a one way valve, to force oil back through the variable needle rebound valve. If you've got those in, then yeah, 2.5wt is your problem. I have 5wt in my shock, and can't feel resistance until the last two turns of the rebound adjuster, where it has a nice range. I think you'd even be safe with 7.5wt oil!
My setup looks like this now:
http://happymtb.org/forum/file.php/1/file=38900
so where do I have to add shims?
here? http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bakoframspvutanshimsedier6.jpg
do anyone has a picture of a right setup?
thanks
conor
The Happymtb link does not work.
You need a shim or two on the piston side where the SPV valve was. I think that is where you are pointing to but you drew so much red, that I cannot see what is under there.
The shims act like a one way flap valve. WIthout any shims on that side, the oil can bypass the rebound shims and go right through the piston.
You need a shim or two on the piston side where the SPV valve was. I think that is where you are pointing to but you drew so much red, that I cannot see what is under there.
The shims act like a one way flap valve. WIthout any shims on that side, the oil can bypass the rebound shims and go right through the piston.
You guys will need more than a shim or two. The Control Valve (SPV) is the main piston's compression damping. By removing it you're removing a very large portion of the compression damping
Can anyone post the translated version of the happymtb page? i've tried the translater thing and cant seem to get it to work. Thanks
All of the info you need is on the manitou seb site (as well here on this site in several threads). They have complete tear down and rebuild instructions for the manitou shocks. Since manitou licensed the tech from Fifth, internally and functionally they are ~ the same.
If you are trying to replace the SPV valve, you will need to find some shims to replace it or you have no damping at all ... like MttyTee said (he knows fifth stuff!).
Listen to MttyTee and davep yo!
You can get by with ~5 shims, but your suspension will pack down like a mo-fo in repeating stutters. I'm running 10 shims of reducing diameter. Bike feels sweet!
Even if people leave the spv in their shocks, at LEAST replace the shaft with a chrome number. Thats probably going to be the easiest +best feeling mod with the least stuffing around (only one rebuild, not multiple until you have the shim stack sorted to your weight and riding style).
Machining gurus out there - think a hard anodized Al shaft would be strong enough on a 5th? I hear some other shocks use them (DHX?) but before I spin one up, I want to be at least partially sure its not going to bend and ruin rider and bike alike
You can get by with ~5 shims, but your suspension will pack down like a mo-fo in repeating stutters. I'm running 10 shims of reducing diameter. Bike feels sweet!
Even if people leave the spv in their shocks, at LEAST replace the shaft with a chrome number. Thats probably going to be the easiest +best feeling mod with the least stuffing around (only one rebuild, not multiple until you have the shim stack sorted to your weight and riding style).
Machining gurus out there - think a hard anodized Al shaft would be strong enough on a 5th? I hear some other shocks use them (DHX?) but before I spin one up, I want to be at least partially sure its not going to bend and ruin rider and bike alike
i would have to disagree with you there fly, the best upgrade for the 5th IMO would be changing the main seal to a softer oring. the number is 112 buna or viton one.
my original plan was to get rid of the spv, but after trying that mod, i was surprised how well a 5th element works. and i have no plans of getting rid of it.
my original plan was to get rid of the spv, but after trying that mod, i was surprised how well a 5th element works. and i have no plans of getting rid of it.
Hey Guys, where do you guys get your shims? Also any suggestions on number of shims for my swinger? 9x2.75 shock , 125lb rider ,single pivot, Dh and i like it plush! No matter how many rebuilds and bleeding, just seems like i cant get the small bump compliance i want with the SPV. Could just be that i dont have enough a$$ to break the platform loose