[Steve M]

Nice ride report socket.

Funny thing is that when you first posted the pics I thought to myself the head angle looked kinda steep for 64 deg. Figured it was just the photo...never easy to judge HA from a photo. See if you can get an actual measurement. I printed off a 90 degree increment protractor I found on the net and then use a plumb line to find absolute vertical and measure it that way. Still is not dead accurate, but probably good to +/- 1/2 deg.

I reckon the high BB may not only be making your HA steeper, but also influencing chain stretch because the virtual pivot (IC) will be higher up if the suspension is sitting higher. Try that 38T!

Sounds like that 9.25 shock might be just the thing, although that will probably put your BB around 13 7/8.

I don't think the high BB is related to the rear end of the bike, but more to do with the tubes of the front triangle and stuff. I'm running plenty of sag.

I'm pretty keen to try the shortened shock idea, gotta call Cane Creek and see what they say. It's going to mean I have to reinstall the shock again though which I'm not looking forward to

Zero Knowledge: you're right, assuming the change in sag doesn't affect things too much (but on this bike it does reduce the anti-squat quite a bit), but the difference in anti-squat due to the changing angle of the bike could not, in my estimation, be big enough to make that particular difference. I think realistically the main reason I don't notice it on the trail is cos I'm paying attention to other things, like not hitting trees, and the suspension is actually being worked

 

[S.K.C.]

Steve - NICE build and sweet new ride ya got there!

First time I saw the Legend, I was pretty curious about the rear linkage. How is it under hard braking? Over square-edge stuff?

If you have been able to provide some good analytical input, then the boys at Banshee couldn't have asked for a better guy.

Now let er' rip!

About the Maxle DH - one of the guys on my collegiate DH team had one last year and the damn thing kept coming loose, so he went to the Maxle QR like you did. I thought it was a bunch of crap so I rode my new Boxxer all year with the stock Maxle DH, and sure enough - it kept coming loose. Not a good feeling when your front end starts clanging and you know it's not the fork. ...and yup - everything was tightened down to spec. and kept clean.

 

[Steve M]

Steve - NICE build and sweet new ride ya got there!

First time I saw the Legend, I was pretty curious about the rear linkage. How is it under hard braking? Over square-edge stuff?

If you have been able to provide some good analytical input, then the boys at Banshee couldn't have asked for a better guy.

Now let er' rip!

About the Maxle DH - one of the guys on my collegiate DH team had one last year and the damn thing kept coming loose, so he went to the Maxle QR like you did. I thought it was a bunch of crap so I rode my new Boxxer all year with the stock Maxle DH, and sure enough - it kept coming loose. Not a good feeling when your front end starts clanging and you know it's not the fork. ...and yup - everything was tightened down to spec. and kept clean.

Cheers mate. Under hard braking it's fine, doesn't do anything untoward or feel excessively harsh. Square edged stuff, it's very good, takes a fairly large hit to get it to hang up much, but obviously it's not quite the same as something with a really high pivot like a BB7/Lahar when it comes to motoring over 8" high staircase-style rocks. Better than pretty well any other bikes I've ridden with unmodified chainlines though in terms of bump absorption.

Maxles suck. Both front and rear come loose all the time. I don't get WTF is wrong with just a normal, straight through, bolt-up rear axle like my SGS had. It's simple, can't be messed up, stays tight, only needs one nut undone to come off, and doesn't cost $60 like a Maxle (wtf $60 axle! I can buy a new door for my car for that much!).

 

[Dean W]

I too am on the list for a Legend.

I also have a Banshee Rune. It rips for a 6" bike, so I am really looking forward to The Legend.

Socket, if you know anyone with an iPhone or an iPod Touch, they can be used as an extremely accurate angle finder.

Here is a discussion about it here: http://bb.nsmb.com/showthread.php?t=117426

The application cost 99 cents and is insanely accurate. I have used it on my bikes to confirm HA and SA.

 

[Pslide]

Socket, if you know anyone with an iPhone or an iPod Touch, they can be used as an extremely accurate angle finder.

That may be the first good reason I've heard to buy an iPhone... :biggrin:

 

[MrPlow]

That may be the first good reason I've heard to buy an iPhone... :biggrin:

Frig that!
Every real man should get one of these, (seen em at bunnings too if your Aussie)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-Angle-Gauge-Protractor-Inclinometer-Clinometer_W0QQitemZ220319111358QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item220319111358&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72:1205|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318

 

[Terrorfirma]

Keith was asking me to check the HA as well because in the pics he said it looked to steep, but 1 measurement is equal to 10000 opinions and sure enough it comes in at 64.
Here you can see the complete bike and the angle finder that was calibrated before measuring.

 

[Terrorfirma]

I don't think the high BB is related to the rear end of the bike, but more to do with the tubes of the front triangle and stuff. I'm running plenty of sag.

I'm pretty keen to try the shortened shock idea, gotta call Cane Creek and see what they say. It's going to mean I have to reinstall the shock again though which I'm not looking forward to

I was bitching too and I installed about 6 of them. First jam a rag into the hole at the bottom of the canoe. I picked the spacers up off the floor about 20x until i realized that little trick.
Install the front ones first!!
Put both spacers in the eyelet and pinch them together... best you don't have sausage fingers or it will be pretty hard... if you do get your girlfriend or wife to install the shock. Always install both spacers at the sametime because I think its impossible to do them one at a time.
The back is easier to get on but make sure the back tire is removed and you should be standing at the back of the bike. Pinch spacers and slide in.
I find that you can pinch the little orings quite a bit which really helps in getting the ID smaller then the space it needs to fit into.

Trust me the first one I did took me 1/2 hour just to get the first one in, but after doing it a couple times I got it down to under 5 min.

 

[Kanye West]

TF what size is yours?

 

[builttoride]

I believe that is a medium frame.

 

[boone]

Jay, how is ur legend looking for BB height? I know that BB height can be quite variable with different set-ups, just trying to get an idea of the range we will be expecting to see. Also if the BB height is different do you think the differences in geo numbers is setup or something else?

Nice report socket! Thanks for all the great info. Can't wait till the US batch arrives

 

[Terrorfirma]

Jay, how is ur legend looking for BB height? I know that BB height can be quite variable with different set-ups, just trying to get an idea of the range we will be expecting to see. Also if the BB height is different do you think the differences in geo numbers is setup or something else?

Nice report socket! Thanks for all the great info. Can't wait till the US batch arrives

Here is the BB height. It might actually be a few mm high because the bike is leaning ever so slightly to the nondriveside while is was trying to take a pic and hold a tape measure.

The shock is a 9.5x3 in the 8.5" setting... basically there is nothing special or out of whack with this build and its seems to be bang on the numbers that are published.

As for the difference in geo numbers, from what i've read socket hasn't actually physically measured the HA yet... i could be wrong however maybe I just missed it.

 

[S.K.C.]

Cheers mate. Under hard braking it's fine, doesn't do anything untoward or feel excessively harsh. Square edged stuff, it's very good, takes a fairly large hit to get it to hang up much, but obviously it's not quite the same as something with a really high pivot like a BB7/Lahar when it comes to motoring over 8" high staircase-style rocks. Better than pretty well any other bikes I've ridden with unmodified chainlines though in terms of bump absorption.

Maxles suck. Both front and rear come loose all the time. I don't get WTF is wrong with just a normal, straight through, bolt-up rear axle like my SGS had. It's simple, can't be messed up, stays tight, only needs one nut undone to come off, and doesn't cost $60 like a Maxle (wtf $60 axle! I can buy a new door for my car for that much!).

Interesting - I was thinking that becasue of the rearward axle path it might "feel" like it's getting a bit caught up on things, but if it's lively enough and the path isn't that exaggerated, then this doesn't really become an issue I suppose. To me - the rear linkage on the Legend is the way I would have re-designed the first Gen. Demo 8's...

Agreed - not sure why they can't go with a less intricate design - like the 20mm through axles that Marzocchi uses (for example like the ones that were on the 04 - 07 888's). The first time I took it (Maxle) apart and really looked at it the first thing that went through my mind was "There's no way this could work"... :biggrin: I think in RS's attempt to save weight (deleting the pinch bolts) they evolved their axle design into the Maxle... and yet most people who race use the heavier QR anyway - thus negating the weight savings that were intended in the first place...

 

[Terrorfirma]

Agreed - not sure why they can't go with a less intricate design - like the 20mm through axles that Marzocchi uses (for example like the ones that were on the 04 - 07 888's). The first time I took it (Maxle) apart and really looked at it the first thing that went through my mind was "There's no way this could work"... :biggrin: I think in RS's attempt to save weight (deleting the pinch bolts) they evolved their axle design into the Maxle... and yet most people who race use the heavier QR anyway - thus negating the weight savings that were intended in the first place...

Part of doing the refinement was finding out all this stuff. Looks like 90% we're going away from the maxle. However i did find that the Saint axle will work in its current configuration.

 

[Steve M]

Interesting - I was thinking that becasue of the rearward axle path it might "feel" like it's getting a bit caught up on things, but if it's lively enough and the path isn't that exaggerated, then this doesn't really become an issue I suppose. To me - the rear linkage on the Legend is the way I would have re-designed the first Gen. Demo 8's...

Agreed - not sure why they can't go with a less intricate design - like the 20mm through axles that Marzocchi uses (for example like the ones that were on the 04 - 07 888's). The first time I took it (Maxle) apart and really looked at it the first thing that went through my mind was "There's no way this could work"... :biggrin: I think in RS's attempt to save weight (deleting the pinch bolts) they evolved their axle design into the Maxle... and yet most people who race use the heavier QR anyway - thus negating the weight savings that were intended in the first place...

Eh? Rearwards axle paths typically don't get hung up (esp on bigger obstacles) as easily as more vertical/forwards ones, as the input force vector through the wheel has a larger component that is parallel to the axle path tangent, and a smaller component of force that is perpendicular to the axle path (which is what creates that jarring feeling of the bike "snagging" on something). The bike is both lively and smooth though (as well as being probably the quietest bike I've ridden), the suspension works very well. It's predictable and doesn't do anything strange, very easy to ride.

As Jay (Terrorfirma) said, the whole point of this feedback program is to find out what doesn't work as well as what does. In my opinion the Maxle is pretty crap (which is actually no fault of Banshee's), but it's easy to work out a solution, and so far I have to give full marks to Banshee for listening to what us test riders have to say in order to make improvements. Both Keith (builttoride - the designer) and Jay (Terrorfirma) have been awesome with communication and listening to what we think is good and bad. Mark my words - when they put this bike into production, it will be up there in direct competition with the very best you can buy. It's an exceptionally solid package that simply needs a few minor bugs (as mentioned earlier) ironed out - Banshee had the foresight to realise this kind of thing always happens with first production runs, and set up a program to make good use of it.

 

[Steve M]

Ok, finally measured the head angle with a proper protractor/inclinometer today. With my setup (crowns as high on the stanchions as possible with a flat crown), the head angle is about 64.5. With the fork dropped to minimum height (208mm exposed stanchion), the head angle is about 65.5. BB height with fork at min height is 358mm which is 14.09". This is all with an FSA zero-stack headset. Basically I think the headtube on mine has simply been welded on at the wrong angle by about 1-1.5 degrees, which would also explain the deviation of the BB height from the nominal value of 14.0".

 

[no skid marks]

All sounds good, how much rear travel do they have again(sorry forgot)? Is anyone clipping pedals?

 

[Pslide]

8.5" out back. I'm running 170 mm cranks with a 14" BB height, 30% sag, no clipping pedals yet (but not too rocky around me).

 

[dilzy]

8.5" out back. I'm running 170 mm cranks with a 14" BB height, 30% sag, no clipping pedals yet (but not too rocky around me).

Do Banshee recommend 30% as that seems awfully low?

I know I run about 40% with a lot of damping on everything. Is there a specific sweet spot with these ala v10?

 

[builttoride]

No, there is not a specific spot for the legend, rather there is a recommended range of sag of 30-40% depending on your preferance, and the course you are racing.

 

[Steve M]

8.5" out back. I'm running 170 mm cranks with a 14" BB height, 30% sag, no clipping pedals yet (but not too rocky around me).

I've got about 38% sag, 165 or 170 cranks (honestly cannot remember, I *think* 165 though), yet to bash my pedals when pedalling, but I'm a lazy bugger who doesn't pedal much so that's probably got a bit to do with it, though I'm careful when I do actually decide to put a few cranks in.

 

[S.K.C.]

Eh? Rearwards axle paths typically don't get hung up (esp on bigger obstacles) as easily as more vertical/forwards ones, as the input force vector through the wheel has a larger component that is parallel to the axle path tangent, and a smaller component of force that is perpendicular to the axle path (which is what creates that jarring feeling of the bike "snagging" on something). The bike is both lively and smooth though (as well as being probably the quietest bike I've ridden), the suspension works very well. It's predictable and doesn't do anything strange, very easy to ride.

As Jay (Terrorfirma) said, the whole point of this feedback program is to find out what doesn't work as well as what does. In my opinion the Maxle is pretty crap (which is actually no fault of Banshee's), but it's easy to work out a solution, and so far I have to give full marks to Banshee for listening to what us test riders have to say in order to make improvements. Both Keith (builttoride - the designer) and Jay (Terrorfirma) have been awesome with communication and listening to what we think is good and bad. Mark my words - when they put this bike into production, it will be up there in direct competition with the very best you can buy. It's an exceptionally solid package that simply needs a few minor bugs (as mentioned earlier) ironed out - Banshee had the foresight to realise this kind of thing always happens with first production runs, and set up a program to make good use of it.

DOH!

I was thinking in terms of input forces having more of an effect on rearward paths in the perpendicular direction... I inverted the effects of the values of the parallell and perpendicular forces on a rearward axle path bike... it's been a while since I've done kinematics and free-body diagrams... oster_oops: :biggrin:

Cheers to Terrorfirma the Banshee guys for experimenting - but maybe something other than a Maxle would be a good idea like you said.