[$tinkle]

...or a religion of pieces?

this disturbing video for Jihadistan certainly polarized me.
(it's all in english w/ thick arabic accent...windoze media)

hi-res
low-res

if you may have given hope that a top saudi religious authority condemns terrorists, allow me to remove that hope:

"Is it holy war to shed Muslim blood? Is it holy war to shed the blood of non-Muslims given sanctuary in Muslim lands? Is it holy war to destroy the possession of Muslims"

just target the infidels, or "dirty kuffars".

or if you thought they were going to modernize, think again:

Saudi Arabia's leaders vowed yesterday not to deviate "an inch" from Islamic Sharia law.
link

at least the clerics were tempered in their prayers at the hajj?
nope:

"Oh God, make the Muslims triumphant and destroy their enemies, and make this country and other Muslim countries safe. Oh God, inflict your wrath on the criminal Zionists"
link

i want to believe that islam is a religion of peace, but when the mainstream is fundamentalist, i'm not so convinced. Also, suspicious is the lack of public condemnation of jihadists by CAIR & others of their ilk.

Anybody think differently?

 

[jdcamb]

You need to learn more about Islam. The internet is a great resource for that. Get back to us after you do that and then we can talk about Islam. Fundamentalists are like the Moral Majority here in the states...they are niether moral or the majority. Their hatred serves their cause. Don't believe the hate buddy.....jdcamb

 

[HippieKai]

Islam is about peace....the wacky wacko's that start other religions off of it arn't.

people think Islam is bad because "islamic people" are terrorist. But you have to remeber that us christians have had our own terrorists too. Uni-bomber who?

 

[MMike]

That's bull****.

And all Chistians are Arkansas baptist zealots too.....

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by jdcamb
You need to learn more about Islam. The internet is a great resource for that. Get back to us after you do that and then we can talk about Islam. Fundamentalists are like the Moral Majority here in the states...they are niether moral or the majority. Their hatred serves their cause. Don't believe the hate buddy.....jdcamb

i know about islam all the way back to its roots from The Promise (ishmael & isaac), ishmael's jealousy by being replaced as heir by his younger brother, causing the root for all jealousy, bitterness, & disdain that Arabs generally have toward Jews, which leads into Muslims' belief that Jews changed & distorted the bible in order to lay claim to abraham's lineage & its inheritence.

This rift is unparalleled in all of recorded history & continues to this second, with no end in sight.

Yes, the bible has record of bloodbaths, but from an historical perspective. It does not teach to "lie in wait to cut the throats of the infidels", as islam does. And it does - don't come back with a line of crap like "it does not!", until you have so eloquently stated "learn more about islam".

back to topic: "Do you think differently?"

follow-on: "elaborate/educate"

 

[HippieKai]

Originally posted by MMike
That's bull****.

And all Chistians are Arkansas baptist zealots too.....

exactly!

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by Mag204
But you have to remeber that us christians have had our own terrorists too. Uni-bomber who?

i knew i could depend on someone to set this up nicely.

You named one guy, serving time, pretty much putting an end to his single reign of terror. I don't think they found a bible in his lean-to...did they? I didn't realize kaczynski's manifesto included biblical ramblings.

 

[LordOpie]

*token jew pops his head in*



oops, wrong thread. umm, y'all go on like I wasn't here.

*backs out slowly*

 

[MMike]

Originally posted by LordOpie
*token jew pops his head in*



oops, wrong thread. umm, y'all go on like I wasn't here.

*backs out slowly*

That should have been typed with a really strong Billy Crystal-esque yiddish accent.

Give me a C....a bouncy C.......

 

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by Mag204
Islam is about peace....the wacky wacko's that start other religions off of it arn't.

people think Islam is bad because "islamic people" are terrorist. But you have to remeber that us christians have had our own terrorists too. Uni-bomber who?

Did the uni-bobmer claim to be a Christian??

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by LordOpie
*token jew pops his head in*



oops, wrong thread. umm, y'all go on like I wasn't here.

*backs out slowly*

get your arse back in here & help out a goy!

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by Mag204
Islam is about peace....the wacky wacko's that start other religions off of it arn't.

people think Islam is bad because "islamic people" are terrorist.

gee i wonder what (if any) religion can be associated to the perpetrator of this act:

Iraq's most powerful Shiite cleric, Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, survived an assassination attempt on Thursday, Reuters reported

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by $tinkle
get your arse back in here & help out a goy!

First, leave my arse alone *shudders*

second, i didn't watch that video because I have a feeling it's propaganda and since I refuse to support propaganda* against jews, i won't support it against muslims.

* Don't see Mel Gibsons new movie :angry:

Polarizing groups is just a bad idea.

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by $tinkle
i knew i could depend on someone to set this up nicely.

You named one guy, serving time, pretty much putting an end to his single reign of terror. I don't think they found a bible in his lean-to...did they? I didn't realize kaczynski's manifesto included biblical ramblings.

Oh c'mon how about Christian folk who bomb abortion clinics, gay bash, preach intolernace and stuff like that.

There are Christians who are super left and those who are right wing.

I'm guessing you may just be a believer and all that, suprise I am too but we are likely on opposite ends of the spectrum.

A radical is a radical, you have Pat Robertson on one hand and Rev. Karen Dammann on the other.

Christianity and Islam are big tents.

 

[Ridemonkey]

Originally posted by Mag204
people think Islam is bad because "islamic people" are terrorist. But you have to remeber that us christians have had our own terrorists too. Uni-bomber who?

This is a silly argument even if the Uni-bomber WAS a Christian.

This is a legitimate question. When we have radical Islamic Fundamentalists around the World:

1. Committing acts of mass death and destruction against civilian populations of all nationalities.
2. Creating entire nations based on the human rights violations and repression of Women.
3. Killing "infidels" of all types. This includes fundamentalists mass murdering congregations of Pakistani Christians, and the recent incident in Malaysia of Islamic fundamentalist gunmen systematically murdering Buddhist monks. This list could go on and on. Bombings of Iraqi civilians. Bombing of Turkish civilians. Bombing of Australian civilians in Bali. Is there any group of peoples on this Earth that deserve to live in the eyes of an Islamic terrorist?

Regardless of the origins or original message of the Islamic faith - today we are faced with a growing Islamic extremist movement that is bent on the destruction of anyone who stands in their way.

Is it any wonder that questions about the Islamic faith would be asked under such circumstances?

To clarify - I don't like ANY religion. But I can't remember one incident of a Buddhist terrorist blowing up innocent women and children.

 

[jdcamb]

Originally posted by $tinkle
i know about islam all the way back to its roots from The Promise (ishmael & isaac), ishmael's jealousy by being replaced as heir by his younger brother, causing the root for all jealousy, bitterness, & disdain that Arabs generally have toward Jews, which leads into Muslims' belief that Jews changed & distorted the bible in order to lay claim to abraham's lineage & its inheritence.

This rift is unparalleled in all of recorded history & continues to this second, with no end in sight.

Yes, the bible has record of bloodbaths, but from an historical perspective. It does not teach to "lie in wait to cut the throats of the infidels", as islam does. And it does - don't come back with a line of crap like "it does not!", until you have so eloquently stated "learn more about islam".

back to topic: "Do you think differently?"

follow-on: "elaborate/educate"

I just asked my Muslim coworker about this...... He needs you to point out this in the Koran. He stated that he is aware of the "historic theory" you speak of but he couldn't dignify that as a feeling he (or any other Muslim he knows) has towards Jews. He stated that is a theory in a biased text book somewhere masquerading as fact.

Going by the context of your original post I assumed you knew nothing about Islam and that you were pointing this discussion in hateful direction (and so did he). I want no part of that. I have been put on the spot about my beliefs about Islam and quickly learned I knew nothing about it. I am learning as we speak, not only about the religion but the myths associated with it.

The Bible doesn't teach that Christians to "lie in wait to cut the throats of the infidels" but many associated with Christianity over history have taught to hate and murder in the name of Jesus (Spanish Iquisition, Jesuit Missionaries in the Americas, and so on). Your point with this post is?? .....jdcamb

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by Ridemonkey
But I can't remember one incident of a Buddhist terrorist blowing up innocent women and children.

Aum Shinrikyo is a bastardised Budhist cult that did some terror in Japan in 1994.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by Ridemonkey
This is a silly argument even if the Uni-bomber WAS a Christian.

This is a legitimate question. When we have radical Islamic Fundamentalists around the World:

1. Committing acts...

I totally agree, but I think they should be labeled terrorists and put to death. But it's a dangerous road to even hint that Islam is like that in general... that would just encourage any group of people to become more insane.

 

[llkoolkeg]

Great. That was on MTV, right?

 

[Ridemonkey]

Originally posted by jdcamb
Your point with this post is?? .....jdcamb

The point is - faced with recent World events (see my post above) - we aren't even allowed to discuss this subject? A subject that is probably the most relelvant political topic at the current time?

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by jdcamb
I have been put on the spot about my beliefs about Islam and quickly learned I knew nothing about it. I am learning as we speak, not only about the religion but the myths associated with it.

And that's exactly why you should be involved in this discussion. Say something stupid and wrong and learn from it. If $tinkle's wrong, take the opportunity to educate him.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by jdcamb
The Bible doesn't teach that Christians to "lie in wait to cut the throats of the infidels" but many associated with Christianity over history have taught to hate and murder in the name of Jesus (Spanish Iquisition, Jesuit Missionaries in the Americas, and so on). Your point with this post is?? .....jdcamb

You absolutly right the Bible does not teach that violence is an acceptable method. You actually made the point to the post, the Koran does advocate violence against the "infedel", the Bible does not (it actually advocates that Christians WILL be persecuted and they are to react in love on revenge........anyway).

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by ummbikes
Oh c'mon how about Christian folk who bomb abortion clinics, gay bash, preach intolernace and stuff like that.

ok, i'll take that charge & attempt to crunch some rough numbers.
how many abortion clinics bombed in the last 10 years? John Jordi was arrested late last year for plotting to bomb...and uhh...eric rudolph has been collected for his bombing of a few clinics.
now, let's incoveniently narrow our focus on just palestinian efforts. Numbers are more than a bit steeper. These 2 aren't even in the same "tent".

Originally posted by ummbikes
There are Christians who are super left and those who are right wing.

again, to claim that guilt by a few compares to an attempt to breath new life to an anti-semetic holocaust is churlish at best.

Originally posted by ummbikes
I'm guessing you may just be a believer and all that, suprise I am too but we are likely on opposite ends of the spectrum.

i'm sure we have similar core beliefs, especially when it comes to murder & justice, eh?

Originally posted by ummbikes
A radical is a radical, you have Pat Robertson on one hand and Rev. Karen Dammann on the other.

Christianity and Islam are big tents.

yeah, i don't pay much attention to these freaks.


hey, just to change subjects, i was wondering, do you think Islam is a religion of peace? Also, do you think Muslims should be more outspoken against violent jihad, or are they appropriately vocal?

 

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by Andyman_1970
persecuted and they are to react in love on revenge........anyway

Meant to say love NOT revenge...........sorry.

There I go bumping up my post count.

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by $tinkle

again, to claim that guilt by a few compares to an attempt to breath new life to an anti-semetic holocaust is churlish at best.

Churlish, no, I am simply asking you to question whether or not all Christians are the same and rightious.

Great word by the way.

I don't think I am directly comparing the two situations as equal. I am trying to illustrate that even a religion based on the Prince of Peace that some followers don't get it.

I am trying to say that at it's core Christianity and Islam and even Budhism are peacefull religions. People as we all know are prone to interept things in a manner that suits their goals.

I would say we could agree and even L'Opie too on the 10 commandments.

You and I probably agree on 97-99% of the same things in Christianity.

So, uhh, ya Islam can be peaceful and Christianity can be violent and Budda's followers can be just as violent as both.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by LordOpie

* Don't see Mel Gibsons new movie :angry:

How is his movie Anti-Semetic? If you use that thinking then the movie is anti-roman, anti-disciple (they abandoned Him).........on and on and on.

Unlike a "normal" fundamentalist Christian I don't "hate" Jews because they "killed" Jesus. The vehicle for His death was the sins of the world, not the Jews. Anyone who thinks that is pretty short sighted.

Anyway, I love Jews, and I consider them my spiritual brothers as it were. (did that sound like I was sucking up??? )

 

[ummbikes]

Stinkle- Yes, Muslims should speak out against Ji'had if it bothers them.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by ummbikes


I don't think I am directly comparing the two situations as equal. I am trying to illustrate that even a religion based on the Prince of Peace that some followers don't get it.

Good point!!

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by ummbikes
You and I probably agree on 97-99% of the same things in Christianity.

Chimps and humans share ~98% of the same DNA.

Whoa sports fans, he really hit that one into left field

 

[llkoolkeg]

Jihad...jihad...what a stupid fvcking concept anyways.

"Don't you do that! If you do, I'm gonna scream 'Jihad' on you!"

[Huh?]

"That does it! I'm tired of you o-pressin' me! Geeeee-hawwwd!"(Why is it that "jihad" sounds so much like "ye-haw" when yelled?)

[Oh $hit...now I did it. He went and called jihad on me.]

"Tra-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la..."(that shrill trilly-thing the women do.)

[I better beat a hasty retreat before the rocks and RPGs start raining.]

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by jdcamb
I just asked my Muslim coworker about this...... He needs you to point out this in the Koran. He stated that he is aware of the "historic theory" you speak of but he couldn't dignify that as a feeling he (or any other Muslim he knows) has towards Jews. He stated that is a theory in a biased text book somewhere masquerading as fact.

found a few:

"Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191)

"Ye are the best of peoples evolved for mankind." (Koran 3:110)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet andgenitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"Not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Koran 5:51)

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been theones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

"If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them [infidels]" (Koran 8:65).

Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (Koran 9:3)

"Fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5)

Our God tells us to "fight the unbelievers" and "He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them" (Koran 9:14).

"Until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Koran 9:29)

"Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place" (9:39).

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"Murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123)

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom fromthem until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:40)

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroythem utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)

"How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11)

"strike off the heads of the disbelievers" (Koran 47:4)

"Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe inAllah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds,
Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)

I'd be interested in your proxy post after bouncing this off your co-worker. Apologies for taking away from work-time. Religion has that stigma of sucking productivity.

this site might help the cause for stemming the tide in the interim, but perhaps i'm being polyanna-ish.

 

[El Jefe]

Religious zealots of any faith, are going to use religion as justification for performing acts of terror treachery, murder, abuse, etc...

Muslims haven't cornered the market on religious nutbags. Christians have quite a stronghold themselves.

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by LordOpie
Chimps and humans share ~98% of the same DNA.

well, that certainly speaks to all the $h|t getting slinged around here

cat-eating-grin:

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by $tinkle
I'd be interested in your proxy post after bouncing this off your co-worker. Apologies for taking away from work-time. Religion has that stigma of sucking productivity.

I'm looking forward to being educated cuz that's some serious stuff there.

 

[Ridemonkey]

Originally posted by El Jefe
Muslims haven't cornered the market on religious nutbags. Christians have quite a stronghold themselves.

Agreed, but its the Islamic Fundamentalists that half the World is at war with right now. So that's gonna be the relative topic.

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by El Jefe
Religious zealots of any faith, are going to use religion as justification for performing acts of terror treachery, murder, abuse, etc...

agreed, & they should be sanitized by their own.

Originally posted by El Jefe
Muslims haven't cornered the market on religious nutbags. Christians have quite a stronghold themselves.

and micro$oft hasn't cornered the market on OS's

just a quick glance, tell me what these events have in common:

• In 1979, the U.S. Embassy in Iran was taken over by <blank>.
• In 1980, Americans in Lebanon were kidnaped by <blank>.
• In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut were blown up and many marines killed. This was done by <blank>.
• In 1985, the Achille Lauro cruise ship was hijacked and a 70-year-old, wheelchair bound American was murdered and thrown overboard, because he was Jewish. The <blank> did this.
• In 1985, TWA flight 847 was hijacked in Athens and a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by <blank>.
• In 1988, Pan Am flight 103 was blown up over Scotland, and all the people on board died. It was <blank> that did this.
• In 1993, the World Trade Center was severely damaged by a truck bomb, set off by <blank> who were headquartered in an Islamic mosque in New Jersey.
• In 1998, U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, Africa were bombed, with many killed by <blank>.
• On October 12, 2000, the U.S. warship the Cole, was bombed and almost sunk by <blank>, while in a harbor in the Middle East.
• On September 11, 2001, four planes were hijacked and used to destroy the World Trade Center and to severely damage the Pentagon. The fourth plane, which was probably headed for the White House or the Capitol Building, went down in Pennsylvania, due to the heroic efforts of some of the passengers. Who brought this shame and harm to our nation? It was the <blank>.
• In 2002, Daniel Pearl was kidnaped in Pakistan, and brutally murdered by <blank>.

please supply a similiar list of atrocities by christians in our lifetime. This would be known as a "supporting argument"

 

[N8 v2.0]

I'd bet that the number of people killed in the Name of the Prince of Peace is far greater than those killed in the name of Allah.

However, I'd also say that Islam was been practiced by a people (for the most part) that have until only recently dewlt in what I'd consider a medieval society and if you look at the areas of the world today that Islam flourishes I'd think you'd find the education level, poverty level and freedom level far distant from western countries. I think the more exposer to modern western culture the less Islam will be able to bind the masses.

I tend to think of the mentality of the middle eastern brand of Islam as probably where Christianity was 300-500 years ago.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Originally posted by $tinkle



please supply a similiar list of atrocities by christians in our lifetime. This would be known as a "supporting argument"

How about the death of 6,000,000 Jews at the hands of white, christian, Nazi's?

And don't forget several hundred Kool-Aid drinkin' fools at Jamestown.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by N8

I tend to think of the mentality of the middle eastern brand of Islam as probably where Christianity was 300-500 years ago.

Agreed. But it's not how Christianity was: a) intended and b) how it was practiced when it was in it's infantcy (ie 1st and 2nd centuries).

The violence during say the cursades, was according to "man" wishes and not advocated in the Scriptures. I would characterize this on par with the fundamentalist Islam we see today.

The major difference is, their book advocates violence, "our" book doesn't.

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by $tinkle


please supply a similiar list of atrocities by christians in our lifetime. This would be known as a "supporting argument"

America drops nukes on Japan.

Let's see Bush invades Afganistan and Iraq in the name of God.
Bush puts God on his side (BBC article)

Do you really want to do this?

I'm about to bust out some Old Testemant favorites...