How was the race?
Killington - Gravity East #6
- Thread starter Bog Dogs
- Start date
if you see a pic you may want pm me and can email you the original 2.2M file..
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Awesome, better than I expected. I wrote a blog post about my experience.
Heavy Lifting at the Killington Beast
Heavy Lifting at the Killington Beast
It was long 2.2 miles, and some pedaling required so it was a real challenging course, and with the improvements we suggested to mountain ops next year the course will be even better with much more flow.
As ambiguous as the term is, the "flow" could certainly be improved. Traversing the ski slopes is sometimes necessary, but a couple of those sections really broke up an otherwise superb course. Also, it emphasized how out of shape I am, but I'm uncertain if I can blame event organizers for that.
It was a great event, and appeared to be well-organized with a good turnout.
This opened my eyes to how underrated Killington is !!!! I had so much fun.
As for the timing thought. Another event with All Sports Timing and more messed up times and confusion on what the "Official" results were after being posted twice I believe. Also 30 sec splits were a bad idea on such a long course.
As for the timing thought. Another event with All Sports Timing and more messed up times and confusion on what the "Official" results were after being posted twice I believe. Also 30 sec splits were a bad idea on such a long course.
WTF, is this just the east coast?? It seems we have timing issues at just about every race, All Sports seems like a top notch company, but yet there are issues with them at a lot of races. Plattekill sucked with all the delays for the GES race, but at least they came clean and said what went wrong. With changes in "official" results it makes you wonder. Didn't someone accuse Platty of making up the results to save face. I felt bad for the announcer at the race, he was trying to keep things moving but just could not. I think the 30 second splits did not help, there was a lot of passing on course.
Great course, I could have done without the uphill, but it was not that bad, everything else was great.
I am not the timing company but as the Race Director and USAC Official for this race, I will give my best shot at explaining so you will all know what transpired.
There was some confusion with two classes, and the times posted are always unofficial until the Official which in this case myself has reviewed them. We apologize if you got the impression the results posted before I came down the mountain were "official" results, they are not and I certainly did not call them official until the correcxtions were made much later.
I as many of you know help out at the start, during the race each categories results as the category finishes are posted, these are unofficial results, until I have come down to review them and listen to any and all protest, I had two, we reviewed the tape and I was able to confirm the results.
The issue of confusion was from the Plate caller via radio to the trailer when racers were coming down very close together, and of course fast. This is due to the 30 second gap that was used in Cat 1 and Pro only. All Women's classes and all cat 2 and 3 men were run at 45 sec. intervals, I would agree that on a course this long we should have considered running a 1 minute gap, lesson learned. However this does not mean the results at the end of the day are flawed.
All Sports events is a very good timing company as are all the others out there and in fact did stop the race and held the Pro's for eight minutes once they were able to see the inaccuracy and then they began to correct the results, once I was down the mountain, and in the timing trailer and found there to be a problem with the two categories we began (what took an hour or so) to review the video back-up as well as the Primary and Secondary manual tape, to match the plate numbers entered in the timing software at the bottom to the time on the tape, the video (which I was so glad was used) and tape back up which were matched by time of day.
I was present and watched the video back up and checked the manual tapes and confirmed the times and was confident enough to sign off as the official results which were then posted, and it was annouced over the PA as official results.
In racing this can happen and all timing companies run into these isues from time to time and occaisionally have issues to correct, that can always be resolved and reviewed thanks to both a Primary, secondary manual tape, and in this case a third back-up video tape at the conclusion of the race, and again nothing is official until the official signs off.
We all hate it when it does not go perfectly smooth and things need to be reviewed and in some cases corrected, myself included we all do are best but man is not always perfect as you know and I will always strive to bring the best event possible.
Thank You
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Well one thing that you can control and should change is if you have a racer who supposedly sponsors the series and is also in the points hunt in his respective GES division.
Do not start him 2 hours before his actual divisions start time, if he has to start first then put his whole group first, as a USAC official I would think you could see how this makes common sense and is fair to the other in his group....what if it had rained after he went?
I know there are no bad intentions here, but on the face of it it doesn't look good.
my two cents
Do not start him 2 hours before his actual divisions start time, if he has to start first then put his whole group first, as a USAC official I would think you could see how this makes common sense and is fair to the other in his group....what if it had rained after he went?
I know there are no bad intentions here, but on the face of it it doesn't look good.
my two cents
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for one, he was put first so that he can make the videos for the event. he's a one man show practically so if you want videos, there has to be a little consideration.
two, your hypothetical situation of "what if it rained" didnt happen anyways, which makes me reluctant to even argue about it. BUT, me and at least 5 or 6 other guys are witnesses to said racer saying.... "i dont control the start list, i feel bad going seperate from the rest of my class... if it rains or if people dont like it i will go up and do a re-run, i just dont want people to get all....." to which we all interupted and said, "dude, dude, its fine, everyone knows you need to make the videos, blah blah, chill out"
my 3 cents to up your 2.
I never blamed him, but I do believe that since there is a points race and he is in it, those in the group should race under the same conditions....for all we know the course may have gotten better for us by the time we went.
so because he makes videos means he gets special treatment over everyone else in his class?
exactly
Dan,
Thanks for the explanation of the timing delay we saw at Killington.
We time many races and pride ourselves on providing the actual exact time to the 1/100 of a second for every racer. This can be a challenge on a 2+ mile course when there is no wire to connect the start start to finish. It causes challenges in communication and data transmission of actual start data of your EXACT Start time. We used two independent sets of wireless at Killington (maybe you noticed the long antennas on the roof of the trailer) to ensure we would get this data. One was used to send down the impulse from the photocell of when you started and the other to send down the bib and synchronized back-up time of day of your start.
At the finish we use a volunteer caller (on a wire and headset we provide) and the chief timer to identify the finishers in order. A time stamp (to the 1/1000 of a second) is recorded when everyone starts and finishes. We assign those impulses to each rider and computers subtract your start from your finish to get your elapsed time. Using this "Time of Day" timing method creates and audit trail and allows us to go back, verify all of the timing data and correct any mis-assignments.
At the same time we had one DNSs from the start, one rider miss their start and were dealing with communication challenges getting those bib numbers, we had the only missed start impulse of the entire day on the primary wireless system AND the volunteer caller at the finished missed a rider number completely and incorrectly called down a different rider number. This all happened when we had multiple finishers at the finish line the chief timer was identifying. We quickly did the best we could do post unofficial results (and they are unofficial as Dan stated until the protest period is over).
At the end of the race, we uploaded all of the times from the back-up timers at the start and verified we had all of the correct start times. This took just a few minutes.
We also reviewed the video we have of the finish. This review process is what caused the delay in awards. We identified every rider in question and matched the order of finish to the order of the time stamps of their finishes on the primary and back-up tapes printed by the actual timing devices. We also matched the time stamps on the video. I have since re-reviewed the entire video to verify all of the times were in fact, correct.
I was not happy with the delay, but am happy I could verify all of the times and unequivocally stand behind what we publish. We didn't "miss" any times, or have to send anyone up for a re-run for a timing issue. If someone has or had a question, we have back-up and can prove the time is correct.
It has been suggested we use alternate technology to time your races. All Sports Events has at it's disposal the latest technology to time nearly every time of human powered (and many motorized) sports. We chose the technology we do to provide the MOST precise times for you. No timing system is perfect and any system can produce flawed results in certain situations. Having the audit trail and back-up to make sure the times are correct is paramount.
If you have any additional question, please feel free to contact me at my personal email at jenna@allsportsevents.com.
Jenna Ginsberg
Owner
Thanks for the explanation of the timing delay we saw at Killington.
We time many races and pride ourselves on providing the actual exact time to the 1/100 of a second for every racer. This can be a challenge on a 2+ mile course when there is no wire to connect the start start to finish. It causes challenges in communication and data transmission of actual start data of your EXACT Start time. We used two independent sets of wireless at Killington (maybe you noticed the long antennas on the roof of the trailer) to ensure we would get this data. One was used to send down the impulse from the photocell of when you started and the other to send down the bib and synchronized back-up time of day of your start.
At the finish we use a volunteer caller (on a wire and headset we provide) and the chief timer to identify the finishers in order. A time stamp (to the 1/1000 of a second) is recorded when everyone starts and finishes. We assign those impulses to each rider and computers subtract your start from your finish to get your elapsed time. Using this "Time of Day" timing method creates and audit trail and allows us to go back, verify all of the timing data and correct any mis-assignments.
At the same time we had one DNSs from the start, one rider miss their start and were dealing with communication challenges getting those bib numbers, we had the only missed start impulse of the entire day on the primary wireless system AND the volunteer caller at the finished missed a rider number completely and incorrectly called down a different rider number. This all happened when we had multiple finishers at the finish line the chief timer was identifying. We quickly did the best we could do post unofficial results (and they are unofficial as Dan stated until the protest period is over).
At the end of the race, we uploaded all of the times from the back-up timers at the start and verified we had all of the correct start times. This took just a few minutes.
We also reviewed the video we have of the finish. This review process is what caused the delay in awards. We identified every rider in question and matched the order of finish to the order of the time stamps of their finishes on the primary and back-up tapes printed by the actual timing devices. We also matched the time stamps on the video. I have since re-reviewed the entire video to verify all of the times were in fact, correct.
I was not happy with the delay, but am happy I could verify all of the times and unequivocally stand behind what we publish. We didn't "miss" any times, or have to send anyone up for a re-run for a timing issue. If someone has or had a question, we have back-up and can prove the time is correct.
It has been suggested we use alternate technology to time your races. All Sports Events has at it's disposal the latest technology to time nearly every time of human powered (and many motorized) sports. We chose the technology we do to provide the MOST precise times for you. No timing system is perfect and any system can produce flawed results in certain situations. Having the audit trail and back-up to make sure the times are correct is paramount.
If you have any additional question, please feel free to contact me at my personal email at jenna@allsportsevents.com.
Jenna Ginsberg
Owner
If he had started last, would that made a difference?
it happened earlier this year at mt snow. They went first, other classes went, then it rained for cat-1. The 2 guys doing the video ended up placing 1 and 2 in cat-1 19-29. Won some moneys. I could really care less, but it has happened already this year.
I want to first say I appreciate and respect the work both Dan McDonald and Willem Cooper do. They are both trying to advance and promote the sport and do a good job at it.
I apologize I didnt get a chance to speak with you (willem and Dan) both at the race. I don't want to seem passive aggressive by bringing it up on the internet after the fact, I was just busy having too much fun taking 30 person 30mph kamikaze runs after the race.
I am among those directly affected by this change the running order. I am currently 2nd in the point series behind Willem. I am not outraged, or upset at the situation, just somewhat dissappointed that my fellow competitors and I were not consulted or at the least informed. I know you have a lot on your plate, but it would have been nice to have made and announcement, and had a simple meeting to be briefed on the situation and given the option to the top contenders in the class to run in the same period as him.
The impacts of changing course conditions, and countless other variables could be debated ad nauseum. We don't need to breach that subject. This situation could be misconstrued as preferential treatment towards the title series sponsor, and and we don't want to get into an ethical debate
I apologize I didnt get a chance to speak with you (willem and Dan) both at the race. I don't want to seem passive aggressive by bringing it up on the internet after the fact, I was just busy having too much fun taking 30 person 30mph kamikaze runs after the race.
I am among those directly affected by this change the running order. I am currently 2nd in the point series behind Willem. I am not outraged, or upset at the situation, just somewhat dissappointed that my fellow competitors and I were not consulted or at the least informed. I know you have a lot on your plate, but it would have been nice to have made and announcement, and had a simple meeting to be briefed on the situation and given the option to the top contenders in the class to run in the same period as him.
The impacts of changing course conditions, and countless other variables could be debated ad nauseum. We don't need to breach that subject. This situation could be misconstrued as preferential treatment towards the title series sponsor, and and we don't want to get into an ethical debate
If we could please discuss this together prior to the next race, hopefully we can find an amicable, and simple solution. thanks- PJ Mihalick.
hey now, i was just stating what happened. Not saying that was the root cause of them placing 1-2. I know they are fast
I racerd, I jammed up my ankle (already sprained) and then somehow - despite stopping 4x to give up, kept trying and ultimately managed to come out the bottom - Screaming like an idiot through the rough to deal with pain, then collapsing and ranting in pain and fresutration after finish line like a giant drama queen. (well, I have been told I am a giant...)
A real eye opener on how unfit I have become, but still could have pulled low 7's. Managed a 9:17 and am actually proud because I bothered and now I have the bug!!!!!
Woot!
A real eye opener on how unfit I have become, but still could have pulled low 7's. Managed a 9:17 and am actually proud because I bothered and now I have the bug!!!!!
Woot!
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that wasnt directed towards you. it was directed towards the situation...and after hearing PJ, it makes me even more angry
you bringing the mutt this weekend? Carbon needs someone else to harass
I just wanna say you're all a bunch of fairies. Come to the south where we time with a stop watch and hand out bottles of liquor and assisted walkers as prizes! 
another bit of food for thought. consider the scenario of the world cup schedule. in the european world cup races you can have well over 250 riders trying to qualify, all competing in the same class. furthermore, the top 80 get a special practice just before quali's. which means it can be as much as 4 hours for the poor guy that goes last in qualifying (since he is not in the top 80 and qualifying order is fastest to slowest, or highest points to lowest points).
short story long, 250+ riders is a lot more then this weekends 190. so that being said, the track is going to change in all sorts of ways, regardless of weather, and no its not fair, but it is bike racing. the rider that goes off just in front of you could blow a berm or kick up a rock and ruin your run. i dont feel this is that big an issue considering there are other races out there that deal with riders all in the same class racing over a much larger gap in time then what the CAT1 people experienced this weekend.
in closing, jsut trying to give people a different mindset, but all in all, Dan is going to read this and will do what he feels is right, cause he wants the gravity east to be the best it can be and everyone to be happy, even though we all know that cant actually happen, cause.... haters gonna hate!
short story long, 250+ riders is a lot more then this weekends 190. so that being said, the track is going to change in all sorts of ways, regardless of weather, and no its not fair, but it is bike racing. the rider that goes off just in front of you could blow a berm or kick up a rock and ruin your run. i dont feel this is that big an issue considering there are other races out there that deal with riders all in the same class racing over a much larger gap in time then what the CAT1 people experienced this weekend.
in closing, jsut trying to give people a different mindset, but all in all, Dan is going to read this and will do what he feels is right, cause he wants the gravity east to be the best it can be and everyone to be happy, even though we all know that cant actually happen, cause.... haters gonna hate!
as long as said person is "sponsoring" a race, then nothing will change and that person will continue to get a unfair advantage....like wiscodh mentioned what happened at Mt Snow
edit: im not in the points race, but making it fair for those in the chase is what matters
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An idea for the future to solve the "Official" results and multiple results.
Print final Official results on RED paper or something similar. They were doing this at nationals in Colorado and it was clear to understand and made it easy to keep track of the 15min Protest period.
Print final Official results on RED paper or something similar. They were doing this at nationals in Colorado and it was clear to understand and made it easy to keep track of the 15min Protest period.
or just have the words "Official Results" on a white piece of paper
Color makes it easier for thoughts of us that dont read.
what about the color blind?
Jenna thanks for the info - I have always thought you guys were very professional. keep up the great work.
I do find it pretty funny that I try to post a suggestion regarding the appearance and fairness of a situation and do it with the up most respect for those involved and it results in a teammate of this person getting all upset and labeling it "haters gonna Hate"
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the haters gonna hate comment has nothing to do with your comment or the arguements that have occured in this thread. the haters gonna hate comment stems from the fact that i said, dan will most likely try to address this becuase he wants the best for the series. and that he is working his hardest to make everyone happy, but we know that no matter what anyone does, wether its a race director or the freakin president, you cant make everyone happy. that is a general statement. no relation to your comment.
you obviously don't get the humor, not to mention the fact that my comment wasn't even directed at you......
The timing company does not print in Color, However I will for those who don't read...LOL Write in Red Pen OFFICIAL RESULTS as long as all understand until that what is posted prior to the Final rider coming down across the line and I have the time to get down the hill and review the results that they are always unofficial until we post the results with the Words OFFICIAL RESULTS to make this clear in the future.
On the Willem Cooper issue, because his company is a Presenting Sponsor and will NOT get him any preferential Racing privledges, if some feel it was an advantage or not. And we have addressed this issue going forward he will go with his entire class.
We only ran him first at this event all season for the first time for the Killington GES, (I cannot comment on Mt. Snow) due to the length of the course so he would have time to hoof it up the mountain for video. Which again will not occur unless he goes with the rest of his cat.
Thank You all for the comments and suggestions, consider it addressed.
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haha nor was mine to you!
fo shizzle.
Like Dan said, the Willem issue has been addressed. I spoke with some of the others directly involved and my understanding is that there was never any malicious intent or any sort of attempt to give any sort of advantage. I do commend those directly involved and affected for handling and resolving this professionally.
For those of you still hatin'.......
