[jonKranked]

@jonKranked - First of all, this is a good discussion, glad for it! I totally agree with what you said, but perhaps my point wasn't clear.

Baseball teams directly monetize each game (Tickets, broadcast rights, jersey sales, concessions, parking, etc). All-stars fill the stands. As such, Allstars make 40x that of the league minimum, and the fall-off (minor leagues) is to essentially no pay.

i think one of the big differences is outside sponsorship - and televised access. i mean yea we have the redbull broadcast, but does that ever make it to network television? no. Rampage does in an abridged form, but that's not racing. for WC racing, does Mercedes as title sponsor make any contributions to the cash purse for the winners?

re: all stars / standout performers, yea, we're on the same page there (the consistent high performers are gonna make the highest salaries). but the difference - which is arguably the more important aspect IMO - is that pay/salary drops off much more quickly and drastically (ie completely) in MTB vs MLB.

Bike brands do not monetize each race. The bigger brands monetize Gold medals and WC stripes to sell at retail and the little brands use a good result as a quick marketing moment. The top few racers, who are mostly the same every year (the all-stars) compete for the medals and stripes. The challengers (top 10) might make things interesting, get on the podium now and gain, and might get a good overall result with consistency and no injuries through the season. The all-stars make 40x that of the challengers. But the fall-off (not in the top 10), is pack fill for development and hangers-on. And these folks get effectively no pay, just like minor leaguers.

this made me think of the redbull takeover of the broadcast, as well as the reduction in qualification numbers for finals (mostly in DH).

instead of reducing the field size (for finals) to make racing artificially more competitive, why not pay more riders a salary so they can commit more time to training for racing rather than have to work to support themselves? that isn't going to eliminate the stand out performers (not something anyone would advocate anyways), but it would increase the number of racers in the mix for those top podium spots, or even the top 20 list.

The challengers (top 10) might make things interesting, get on the podium now and gain, and might get a good overall result with consistency and no injuries through the season. The all-stars make 40x that of the challengers. But the fall-off (not in the top 10), is pack fill for development and hangers-on. And these folks get effectively no pay, just like minor leaguers.

re: all stars / standout performers, yea, we're on the same page there (the consistent high performers are gonna make the highest salaries). but the difference - which is arguably the more important aspect IMO - is that pay/salary drops off much more quickly and drastically (ie completely) in MTB vs MLB.

the problem is that WC = MLB = pros (professionals). there is a barrier to entrance, you have to earn your right to compete (UCI points in mtb, or trade team position, which I would say is akin to a major league contract). 100% of MLB players make a salary. Far fewer than 100% of professional WC MTB racers make a salary (since PB surveyed the top 40 per discipline, and 20% of the top 40 collect no salary, you can infer that basically the top 30 for a given discipline earn a salary, and that anyone outside the top 30 isn't). so the analogy still doesn't hold.

 

[marshalolson]

@marshalolson - speaking of injuries and insurance........

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/more-than-50-percent-of-pro-riders-feel-they-wouldnt-be-adequately-supported-after-an-injury-pinkbike-state-of-the-sport-survey.html

Interesting and troubling perspective.

I wonder how that benchmarks against the general workforce of physical laborers, how it splits between US riders and pretty much any other nationality, or compared to how a consumer views concussion risk/education.

 

[marshalolson]

Free market... there's winners and losers amiright???

One cannot change a system until you understand how it came to be and why it is weak.
You change it by going after its weakness.

Literally, my day job is to help brands and athletes work together more holistically and mutually beneficially.

 

[jonKranked]

One cannot change a system until you understand how it came to be and why it is weak.
You change it by going after its weakness.

Literally, my day job is to help brands and athletes work together more holistically and mutually beneficially.

so the skinsuit ban is the problem?

 

[Westy]

I am guessing we would all get paid a lot less to do our jobs if there were a bunch of people willing to do it for free.

 

[jonKranked]

I am guessing we would all get paid a lot less to do our jobs if there were a bunch of people willing to do it for free.

would the UCI hold world cups if all the racers went on strike? would they have a bunch of joeys racing? that would be pretty funny, but more like an episode of MXC.

 

[jonKranked]

Literally, my day job is to help brands and athletes work together more holistically and mutually beneficially.

i was not aware of this, but that is certainly interesting.

does your algorithm include fanny packs?

 

[marshalolson]

i was not aware of this, but that is certainly interesting.
does your algorithm include fanny packs?

in short yes, and happy to unpack via DM

 

[jonKranked]

unpack

 

[Inclag]

I am guessing we would all get paid a lot less to do our jobs if there were a bunch of people willing to do it for free.

You just described mountain bike racing!

 

[iRider]

Mountainbike racing is an enthusiast sport, nobody starts with it for the money or the future perspective. Historically you could get away with studying on the side or getting another education or working a seasonal job and later, when you would be willing to start a family/buy a house, your racing days were over because of age anyway. So it was a hobby and if you were good at it you could even get paid for it.
These days racing has gotten so professional that you have to commit 100% to it to make it to the sharp end, leaving athletes in the position needing to put everything on one card. With the current salary structure this is a risky move that not many are willing to make. For example, it is always discussed why we do not see more german racers at the top. One of the best explanations I have heard was from an athlete manager that wrote that most of them do not want to compromise on their education. This takes time and energy away from reaching their full potential in racing, additionally also shortening their careers as they stop earlier because of lack of success.

 

[jonKranked]

Like Missy, I would say Rachel was probably the most marketable mountain biker in the world, during her prime.

you say that like she's past her prime.

I'm also a bit surprised the pay disparity between genders isn't bigger (not that that's a bad thing). i know XC is pretty stacked with talent, but the women's DH field is still small. i will say it's awesome to see the content that Miranda Miller and Casey Brown have been putting out, especially with the progression they are making.

 

[Leafy]

My biggest takeway from the article that PB didn't even mention is that only 48.99% of the people competing in pro mountain biking are actually pros and 21.21% are true amateurs. That right folks, if you dont earn your living through the sport you're not a pro, and if you're paid but need a day job you're somewhere between amateur (like a dentist that races for fun but just happens to be really fucking good) and semi-pro (like a bike shop mechanic scraping away just to race.)

 

[marshalolson]

you say that like she's past her prime.

I'm also a bit surprised the pay disparity between genders isn't bigger (not that that's a bad thing). i know XC is pretty stacked with talent, but the women's DH field is still small. i will say it's awesome to see the content that Miranda Miller and Casey Brown have been putting out, especially with the progression they are making.

A few really key points here!

The gender disparity might not be as big in this poll as, say, US men’s vs women’s soccer, but my view is it actually should be inverted (Ie generally the women’s SHOULD earn more) If brand marketing managers had any idea what they are doing. The best ladies should be more marketable, because so many are nice, warm, approachable people, invested in building the riding communities and activating all genders and levels of rider.

This is what ever brand wants from its athletes and ambassadors. And what so many are blowing it at. Their sports marketing is lazy, resorting to a picture of the podium with their rider on it or super gnar bro huckzors.

In contrast, Casey and Miranda are killing it. They are savvy people making their way, true to themselves, doing what they love, and connecting to their audience authentically. Storytelling, community activation, and aspirational riding. They are also as fast as anyone on the planet, but not really “racers” in a pure sense (part of why they have the freedom they have, to do their own thing now).

Contrast them with Katy Winton. You could not find a nicer person or a better fit for literally any brand. But the managers at so many brands passed on working with her due to short sightedness and a fundamental lack of understanding about what she could bring to the table. Seeing her posts about all of that was gut wrenching and super disappointing.



Ps- I meant Rachel winning like 20 races in a row or whatever. She is the one to beat when healthy these days, but her pinnacle is in “best run ever in any sport” category.



All just one guy’s opinion!

 

[jonKranked]

My biggest takeway from the article that PB didn't even mention is that only 48.99% of the people competing in pro mountain biking are actually pros and 21.21% are true amateurs. That right folks, if you dont earn your living through the sport you're not a pro, and if you're paid but need a day job you're somewhere between amateur (like a dentist that races for fun but just happens to be really fucking good) and semi-pro (like a bike shop mechanic scraping away just to race.)

i'll see your arbitrary interpretation and counter that most, if not all, of them have a Pro license (or equivalent) from their national federation.

 

[Leafy]

i'll see your arbitrary interpretation and counter that most, if not all, of them have a Pro license (or equivalent) from their national federation.

The distinction is made between amateur sporting participants and professional sporting participants, who are paid for the time they spend competing and training. In the majority of sports which feature professional players, the professionals will participate at a higher standard of play than amateur competitors, as they can train full-time without the stress of having another job. The majority of worldwide sporting participants are amateurs.

 

[jonKranked]

ah yes, trustworthy wikipedia. the gold standard.

So someone with a Pro category racing license isn't a Pro?

 

[marshalolson]

i'll see your arbitrary interpretation and counter that most, if not all, of them have a Pro license (or equivalent) from their national federation.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the licensure is tied to insurance underwriting required and carried by race promoters so “pro” races can have cash prizes - hence making them “pro”.

 

[Leafy]

If they are not being paid to compete and train, no they're not. Bicycle sports use pro as a speed category.

 

[jonKranked]

If they are not being paid to compete and train, no they're not. Bicycle sports use pro as a speed category.

payment as in salary or payment as in other forms of compensation? as was pointed out, many of the UCI riders don't have a salary, but have other forms of compensation

 

[Leafy]

Salary, sponsorship/endorsement, prize money any combination of the above that is your primary income makes you pro.

 

[jonKranked]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the licensure is tied to insurance underwriting required and carried by race promoters so “pro” races can have cash prizes - hence making them “pro”.

i think part of it depends on whether or not a race event is affiliated with a national federation. i think there are some non-federation race series that have cash prizes in non-pro categories.

 

[marshalolson]

Maybe the UCI will step in and advocate for the betterment of rider and sport.

 

[canadmos]

If they aren't full time employees of the company, why would they require a salary?

What do majority of racers doing during the off season? Talking the people ranked below the top 30. Most of them I'm guessing bring little value to their sponsors when they aren't racing or taking mad shreddits for instagram.

 

[jonKranked]

Maybe the UCI will step in and advocate for the betterment of rider and sport.

 

[marshalolson]

i'll see your arbitrary interpretation and counter that most, if not all, of them have a Pro license (or equivalent) from their national federation.

Should everyone who passes the bar be paid as a full time lawyer? Even if they are not hired, only do pro bono work for fun, or only take cases on contingency and don’t win?

 

[djjohnr]

Why should anyone get paid just for racing mountain bikes when there's barely an audience? There's no significant amount of people paying to watch in-person and there's not enough viewership to warrant TV deals that advertisers would sign up for.

 

[jonKranked]

Why should anyone get paid just for racing mountain bikes when there's barely an audience? There's no significant amount of people paying to watch in-person and there's not enough viewership to warrant TV deals that advertisers would sign up for.

And definitely don't tell RBM they're broadcasting amateur racing

 

[jonKranked]

Should everyone who passes the bar be paid as a full time lawyer? Even if they are not hired, only do pro bono work for fun, or only take cases on contingency and don’t win?

 

[jonKranked]

Should everyone who passes the bar be paid as a full time lawyer? Even if they are not hired, only do pro bono work for fun, or only take cases on contingency and don’t win?

Majority of states won't let you take the bar exam if you haven't gone to law school. Where's mountain biking school?

 

[jonKranked]

Plus, if you pass the bar but don't have a law degree, good luck getting a job.

 

[jonKranked]

Why should anyone get paid just for racing mountain bikes when there's barely an audience? There's no significant amount of people paying to watch in-person and there's not enough viewership to warrant TV deals that advertisers would sign up for.

Oh oh remember when rocky roads sponsored the WC?

 

[Jm_]

payment as in salary or payment as in other forms of compensation? as was pointed out, many of the UCI riders don't have a salary, but have other forms of compensation

Like free socks.

 

[jonKranked]

Like free socks.

Or orange stripe maxxis tires?

 

[djjohnr]

And definitely don't tell RBM they're broadcasting amateur racing

Looking on the RB youtube channel -

- Last MTB video listed on their Uploads page - Craziest DH Runs from Leogang - posted 6 months ago, 1.5M views
- All Time Fav Soapbox Cars - posted 3 months ago, 2M views

Sounds like being a Flutag pro is a better bet

 

[maxyedor]

meanwhile, bike companies are recording record growth. look at every single one of these headlines. every. single. one.

Earnings/Financial Reports

www.bicycleretailer.com

Nothing preventing racers from forming some form of union. Otherwise, racer salary data merely illustrates potential hypocrisy between a brands marketed values vs. their true values.

Just a random thought these two things brought up, while I was searching the thread for a post about about injuries.

What does record breaking sales in, arguably, the worst year for racing ever mean in relation to professional rider's value? Sure bike companies made a metric shitload of money, but how much can be attributed to their paid pro racers?

Who's to say the newly unionized riders don't get exactly what they're worth and what they're worth turns out to be much less than they get now? Their efforts in competition do seem largely irrelevant to sales, so what are they worth?


Couldn't find the quote about injuries and how many riders felt covered in case of one, and connecting it to the US medical insurance industry, but with 54% of downhill riders say they're not adequately supported, and only 19.5% of respondents were from North America, so I'd go out on a limb and say simply having Universal healthcare doesn't solve the problem here. Sounds like, for most riders, being unable to race means being unable to earn a paycheck, and medical care is just a fraction of what paychecks are good for.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/more-than-50-percent-of-pro-riders-feel-they-wouldnt-be-adequately-supported-after-an-injury-pinkbike-state-of-the-sport-survey.html

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/5-key-stats-from-downhill-racers-in-pinkbikes-state-of-the-sport-survey.html

Going to reiterate what I said earlier about soft goods and pro model gear. You can make a royalty off a hat while laid up in the hospital, not getting a win bonus while wearing a body cast.

 

[jonKranked]

What does record breaking sales in, arguably, the worst year for racing ever mean in relation to professional rider's value? Sure bike companies made a metric shitload of money, but how much can be attributed to their unpaid sorta-pro racers?

Fixed

 

[jstuhlman]

so when is GG gonna sign miranda?

 

[Jm_]

And does signing riders generate more revenue for the company?

 

[canadmos]

And does signing riders generate more revenue for the company?

Only if they first sign a letter of intent and have a pro license.