[kidwoo]

2. I've been mostly using the RC4 (not normally my favorite shock) on my DHR and it has been excellent. I do agree with Weagle that it requires very little compression damping and you should run the boost volume at max with low pressure. The bike itself has such a good progression rate that it just doesn't need much help from the shock.

That's really what it boils down to.......the frame works really well without bandaids.

Were there changes to weagle's setup recs though? They were way heavier on the compression damping settings than what made sense to me. (this is based on what he was suggesting last summer). I pretty much have zero high speed damping and only about 4-5 clicks in on the low speed.

Sandwhich.....don't think of the boost valve as 'maxed'. More like 'open' Maxed would be turned all the way in and inflicting a much greater influence over the performance beyond the characteristics of the frame itself.

 

[kidwoo]

why is a "dual progressive leverage curve" better than a standard progressive leverage rate?

It's just more specifically tuned for what you're typically engaged in for any given range of travel.....sag....nailing things.....REALLY nailing things.

 

[Sandwich]

Sandwhich.....don't think of the boost valve as 'maxed'. More like 'open' Maxed would be turned all the way in and inflicting a much greater influence over the performance beyond the characteristics of the frame itself.

ahhh...there it is. my pea sized brain didn't wrap around it before.

It's just more specifically tuned for what you're typically engaged in for any given range of travel.....sag....nailing things.....REALLY nailing things.

i suppose. I'm honestly not trying to poke the bear here. I'm just wondering why a linear "middle" rate is better than consistently progressive ratio. Just seems to me the deeper you go, the more resistance and damping effect you want.

 

[kidwoo]

Well think about one of the situations when you're likely to be riding relatively the fastest...kind of a smooth section without a whole lot of big bumps. You'd be right in that linear range, or at least at the beginning of it. This is also the kind of situation where you'd be more likely to just let yourself hit smaller things without putting too much effort into avoiding or hopping them. The easier that wheel moves out of the way, the more speed you maintain (kind of the behavior of the sunday's entire travel range). The 'minor' features are just that....something not worth prioritizing over a general line choice or tucking/pedaling/pumping/whatever. You know all this just based on what people refer to as a 'linearly' behaving bike anyway. But with this, you get a linear ride in the middle without blowing through the travel (like a sunday). In doing this you achieve a lot of the pump efficiency of the old dhrs (pretty consistently progressive IMO) but gain some small bump sensitivity.

The ending progressiveness should be self evident.

Now I'm just guessing here but I'd think the progressiveness at the top of the travel is for better negative travel behavior 'above' sag like when you roll over a small ledge and you extend beyond sag. Might be wrong on the thinking with that one though because I really don't know where weagle designed these changes to actually take place accross the travel range.

 

[kidwoo]

I just read through that nsmb thread linked from the review. I can't help but wonder when he says 'maxed out volume' on the shock, if he turned it clockwise all the way

 

[kootenaytallboy]

I'll chime in on this DHR review from nsmb.

First, in full disclosure, I've got a DW DHR and I love it. I haven't had a lot of DH bikes, nor have a compared the DHR to many of my friends rides. However, its easily the best bike I've had, and my 08 Sunday was pretty damn good...

Re Noise - show me a bike that is quiet without any protection whatsoever and I'll be impressed. However, I don't think this is common (or perhaps possible) without some work. Like many, I've got velcro on my DHR (10 minutes of work), and its absolutely, positively, dead quiet. Stealth quiet. The velcro closest to the upper chainguide is wearing through tho after a couple months, so perhaps there is a heavy hitter in there somewhere. Easy solution to just add more velcro tho. Hardly too much to ask after many days of use.

Re Mud in the shock - ya, this is an oversight. But Turner is by no means unique in this regard - see the likes of the Transition, Commencal, new Demo, Morewood, etc all of whom are making some of the best bikes in the world yet don't have mud guards.

Re compatability with other shocks - yes, this is lame, and can only be seen as an oversight by Turner. That said, just run the fox, as it certainly works.

Re rear end feel - I've heard this from one or two others, and all I can say is that in my experience this thing freaking hauls. I haven't ridden an M9 or new V10, which may handle the rough better. Who knows, there may also be other bikes that do so as well. But something seems amiss, as there are lots of folks that heap nothing but praise on the rear end of this bike.

 

[kidwoo]

Re compatability with other shocks - yes, this is lame, and can only be seen as an oversight by Turner. That said, just run the fox, as it certainly works.

There's only one shock that touches the linkage.


A vivid air.....which didn't exist when that linkage was designed.

 

[kootenaytallboy]

one more thing... while the North Shore has many trails that are old school, with lots of tech stuff (even wood), there are also many other trails that are plenty fast, rough and steep for a proper review of a DH bike... you just gotta know where to look

 

[kootenaytallboy]

There's only one shock that touches the linkage.


A vivid air.....which didn't exist when that linkage was designed.

Are you sure? I thought I'd read that Vivids with high rated springs would have clearance issues, particularly if Ti.

 

[Acadian]

Are you sure? I thought I'd read that Vivids with high rated springs would have clearance issues, particularly if Ti.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7716721&postcount=60

 

[kidwoo]

http://www.sicklines.com/projects/project-2011-turner-dhr/

These guys must have a smaller spring?

 

[IH8Rice]

I can't help but wonder when he says 'maxed out volume' on the shock, if he turned it clockwise all the way

when i think "maxed out" i dont think the smallest possible chamber

 

[kidwoo]

when i think "maxed out" i dont think the smallest possible chamber

Right but maxed out boost valve........I could see the confusion.

I just looked at the close up pic he had of his shock and it doesn't look like it's maxed up.

 

[Timmigrant]

Thanks again for a presumptuous comment Kidwoo. The Boost Volume was maximized, ie, the blue volume adjust knob was wound all the way counter clockwise. You can see that clearly in the photos in the review. If the Boost Volume is minimized I don't think you would be able to see the black anodized hex wrench flats under the Boost Volume knob.

 

[Sandwich]

 

[Jeremy R]

Thanks again for a presumptuous comment Kidwoo. The Boost Volume was maximized, ie, the blue volume adjust knob was wound all the way counter clockwise. You can see that clearly in the photos in the review. If the Boost Volume is minimized I don't think you would be able to see the black anodized hex wrench flats under the Boost Volume knob.

In da face, Woo, IN DA FACE!!
Tim the Migrant just put you in your place!

 

[kidwoo]

Thanks again for a presumptuous comment Kidwoo. The Boost Volume was maximized, ie, the blue volume adjust knob was wound all the way counter clockwise. You can see that clearly in the photos in the review. If the Boost Volume is minimized I don't think you would be able to see the black anodized hex wrench flats under the Boost Volume knob.

Relax tiger that's what I just said. I only brought it up because of sandwhich's earlier comments about the setting being 'maxed'. Using that terminology, I could see it causing confusion. And it's something in the shock setup that would have accounted for your impressions of the bike that are so wildly different from my own and most people's. Obviously that's not it, which is why I pointed it out.

 

[Timmigrant]

Relax tiger that's what I just said. I only brought it up because of sandwhich's earlier comments about the setting being 'maxed'. Using that terminology, I could see it causing confusion. And it's something in the shock setup that would have accounted for your impressions of the bike that are so wildly different from my own and most people's. Obviously that's not it, which is why I pointed it out.

No worries Kidwoo, just bustin' yer chops, which you likely deserve after suggesting that I'm an idiot who regularly rides a Karpiel Armageddon sprung for a kitten.

For the record you pointed out quite the opposite, did you not?

"I can't help but wonder when he says 'maxed out volume' on the shock, if he turned it clockwise all the way "

"I just looked at the close up pic he had of his shock and it doesn't look like it's maxed up."​

Also it doesn't seem like my impressions of the bike were wildly different to the vast majority. There have been a number of folks on a number of forums comment that their impressions were similar to mine. Luckily for us however I'll be retesting the bike with a confirmed operational shock and posting an update after another go on the DHR. I'm really looking forward to it, and hoping it sheds some light on the wide variety of experiences.

 

[kidwoo]

For the record you pointed out quite the opposite, did you not?

"I just looked at the close up pic he had of his shock and it doesn't look like it's maxed up."​

No. I was surmising in the first sentence and after looking at my own bike realized your boost valve top cap was in a similar position. Which is what I meant in that second sentence you quoted.


Anyway...curious to see what you think about a bike with fresh dampers. It's hard to believe the ones you rode were THAT messed up but who knows.

Go fast. Take chances.

 

[dw]

No worries Kidwoo, just bustin' yer chops, which you likely deserve after suggesting that I'm an idiot who regularly rides a Karpiel Armageddon sprung for a kitten.

For the record you pointed out quite the opposite, did you not?

"I can't help but wonder when he says 'maxed out volume' on the shock, if he turned it clockwise all the way "

"I just looked at the close up pic he had of his shock and it doesn't look like it's maxed up."​

Also it doesn't seem like my impressions of the bike were wildly different to the vast majority. There have been a number of folks on a number of forums comment that their impressions were similar to mine. Luckily for us however I'll be retesting the bike with a confirmed operational shock and posting an update after another go on the DHR. I'm really looking forward to it, and hoping it sheds some light on the wide variety of experiences.

I'll be honest in saying that I haven't had any time to read your "review" of the dwDHR. I'll probably get to it at some point. At any rate, can you let me know the exact shock settings that you were using?

I've had the opportunity to test with the bike alongside 5 other DH chassis, with data acquisition and some of the best test riders I've ever worked with. I can't overlook that rider comments have been off the chart good on this bike. Being as this is the first peep of negativity I've heard about the dwDHR, I'm inclined to think that: 1) something is amiss with the equipment or setup, but more importantly 2) that it can be fixed.

Don't forget to note fork settings, tire pressures, trail conditions as well.

Help me help you.

Dave

 

[kidwoo]

Jesus christ, it's about time you showed up.

 

[IH8Rice]

why is it so hard to believe someone didnt like one of DW's bikes.

 

[slyfink]

this is when I would post the "I like where this thread is going" picture... carry on.

 

[dw]

why is it so hard to believe someone didnt like one of DW's bikes.

He obviously didn't like it. Is that indicative of an incompatibility between rider style and bike design intent, a design problem, an equipment failure, or a setup issue?

Seeing as the review (which I've now skimmed) talks about and I quote, "The Fox 40, which I’m sure needed a rebuild" I am pretty sure that we can make this particular bike perform better.

Add to that the glowing reviews elsewhere, if that doesn't make you scratch your head, well.. At any rate the review is clearly anomalous and the causes behind that bear further research.

Bottom line is that if I can help use science to make one rider happier on a bike then mission accomplished.

 

[dw]

Jesus christ, it's about time you showed up.

Yeah unfortunately I've actually been busy working on riding, actual suspension testing and tuning as opposed to posting about and speculation about it on the internet.. hah

 

[xy9ine]

 

[dw]

Now that is a good internet thread picture emoticon thing!

 

[kidwoo]

Yeah unfortunately I've actually been busy working on riding, actual suspension testing and tuning as opposed to posting about and speculation about it on the internet.. hah

I can only imagine how nice that must be. It's still freaking snowing here every other day.

So how's that pivot 4x bike?

I've been playing around at a new venue that would loooove a go on one of those things.

http://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/member/Untitled,7449/kidwoo,316

http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/Woodward-West-Mega-Session,2361/Hardtails-Stay-in-the-Car,20448/sspomer,2

 

[IH8Rice]

Seeing as the review (which I've now skimmed) talks about and I quote, "The Fox 40, which I’m sure needed a rebuild" I am pretty sure that we can make this particular bike perform better.

Add to that the glowing reviews elsewhere, if that doesn't make you scratch your head, well.. At any rate the review is clearly anomalous and the causes behind that bear further research.

Bottom line is that if I can help use science to make one rider happier on a bike then mission accomplished.

even with his "beloved" 888 on there, he didnt still seem to like it.

i for one am glad someone actually said what they really feel about the bike (or any bike.) its nice to have a objectionable review on something once in a while.

i understand though, your concern on getting his test bike right...your name is etched onto the bike afterall.

 

[dw]

Quoted because i think an answer would be OK too.

Before I go and type a few paragraphs, can you do me a favor and give the search function a try and post up what you find? It sure would save me a lot of time.

 

[Sandwich]

all I could find was this: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214213 when I searched for "dual progressive curve"

edit:
hoopie doo! http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3120157&postcount=13

 

[djjohnr]

Before I go and type a few paragraphs, can you do me a favor and give the search function a try and post up what you find? It sure would save me a lot of time.

DW, in the post Sandwich linked to you state that the last 40% of travel is rising rate, is that what made it into production? Also, how far into the travel is the sag point?

 

[Sandwich]

 

[djjohnr]

Thanks, but that doesn't tell you where the sag point is.

 

[Sandwich]

sorry, I stole it from the feller on NSMB. I don't know if it's accurate or what. If you play the 33% sag game, you get 2.6565" of travel at sag, so right about where the linear portion comes into play.

 

[djjohnr]

That's only if 33% of wheel travel = 33% shock stroke, which is rarely the case.

 

[p-spec]

Never ridden a dw link,would love to compare it to my hearttaken VPP.

 

[Timmigrant]

I'll be honest in saying that I haven't had any time to read your "review" of the dwDHR. I'll probably get to it at some point. At any rate, can you let me know the exact shock settings that you were using?

I've had the opportunity to test with the bike alongside 5 other DH chassis, with data acquisition and some of the best test riders I've ever worked with. I can't overlook that rider comments have been off the chart good on this bike. Being as this is the first peep of negativity I've heard about the dwDHR, I'm inclined to think that: 1) something is amiss with the equipment or setup, but more importantly 2) that it can be fixed.

Don't forget to note fork settings, tire pressures, trail conditions as well.

Help me help you.

Dave

Hey Dave, great to see you chime in here. I started off with your suggested shock setting. Boost Volume maximized, Boost pressure at 140 psig. I used your suggested compression settings but when the bike still felt harsh at high speed I backed the HSC out completely , ie -12. I tried a variety of LSC settings but settled in at 4 clicks from fully open, which works out to -14 clicks. Rear spring was a 400 lb / in steel and a well used 400 lb / in Ti that I suspect due to lots of mileage is softer than 400 lb / in. Preload on the spring was essentially zero. Rebound was set to my taste, which is fairly quick, but don't recall the position. Fork was a 888 RC3 Evo Ti, 2 turns on VA, no preload, 4 clicks from open on compression, 7 clicks from open on rebound. Tires were Maxxis Minion DHF, run at 27 psig front, 29 psig rear. I rode the bike on a wide variety of trails. Steep trails, rough trails, smooth trails, slow trails, fast trails.

What were the 5 other DH chassis that you tested in comparison to the DHR? Did they all use the same shock, same fork, same suspension settings and similar mass wheels? Care to shed some light on your experiences of how the 5 DH chassis performed in comparison to each other?

In riding the DHR and writing my "review" I've read quite a lot of your posts and articles. However like you openly admit, you aren't the best at making your thoughts and ideas easy to understand. Since I'm a wee peon I found most of your technical posts difficult to follow, which is why I asked the question; why is anti-squat and a dual-progressive leverage curve beneficial in a DH bike.

I've read your article on anti-squat on the DW-Link website, and can clearly see the benefits in an XC and all-mountain machine where pedaling efficiency is paramount. However in a DH bike, it seems to me that pedaling efficiency is secondary to maximizing traction through bump adsorption and chassis stability. Does the anti-squat characteristic negatively affect bump adsorption? Can you have a bike with great anti-squat characteristics and great bump adsorption? From what I understand you pretty much invented the term and measure of anti-squat, do you have a similar measure of a bike's ability to adsorb high speed bumps?

The dual-progressive rate leverage curve is even more confusing for me than anti-squat. Surely tuning a shock to work with rapidly changing leverage ratios is very difficult. Is this possibly why the RC4 that came in the DHR was harsh in the DHR yet felt fantastic in another bike with very similar shock stroke and wheel travel? Is something like the DHR more sensitive to shock tuning than other designs? Suspension design is always a compromise, and I'm interested to hear your thoughts on what the benefits and drawbacks are of the leverage curve you chose for the DHR. What are your thoughts on the influence of wheel path to suspension performance?

I'm prepared to be schooled!

 

[ekimox]

why is it so hard to believe someone didnt like one of DW's bikes.

THIS!

I fully trust Tim's review. He's a well respected racer in the lower mainland (Greater Vancouver area) and tests numerous products for NSMB. To question his knowledge and assume that he must not know what he's doing is comical. And get this: He's probably faster than 99% of the people on this forum.

Hey look Ride Monkey, SOMEONE DOESN'T LIKE A DW PRODUCT!!! Let's all pile on!

I'm sick and tired of this whole MTB community not having an opinion that is different from the masses. I come from a MX background and guess what... If a product doesn't deliver it doesn't get a favorable review unlike every review in MTBing in which every product is great.

One day I'd love to see 5-6 of the top bikes be put into a "Shootout" type review with different riders time test different bikes and have actual rider opinion given for each bike. There would be a winner and a loser with the other bikes finishing somewhere in between.

I say one day because this will likely never happen because some hyped up suspension design or designer's ego would get crushed. And that apparently would be too much for some people, especially some people on this board, to handle.

And if Turner is handing out demo bikes that are totally punted than they deserve the negative reviews that they got.

End rant

 

[Udi]

I'm prepared to be schooled!

Tim, I think you'll find the answers to all your questions in the threads that were already linked in post #71 of this thread.

To be more specific, both Socket and DW cover it in detail here (read below third quote by TrueScotsman) and here. Double progressive curve post here.

DW-Link, from what is discussed in those posts, achieves gains in terms of increasing traction, and pedaling characteristics are definitely not the only benefit.

Like already suggested, I would be inclined to think there was something wrong with the shock (or something else on the bike). I've experienced a situation identical to what you described personally, and the difference when I swapped the shock out was night and day.

For the problem to be as drastic as you described, I'd say the cause is beyond a simple difference in opinion.