[no skid marks]

transcendentalist what technical input would you like to add to support your conviction of the merrits of thier design and possibly help me further my knowledge of a design that i've had experience to be flawed,I'll add that I've not experienced this design with a modern shock but still cannot see that this would solve the problem much.Honda+Showa no matter how good are still coming from a wealth of knowledge that works on a heavier vehicle. My comments were made to induce conversation rather than glorify myself.I care not what others think of me let alone let alone those on the other side of the world. I speek my mind not some regurgitetated marketting dribble.
I don't think all bikes with vertical shocks suffer as bad as those where the shock sits closer to the back or behind the rider.
I obviously don't work for Showa for those that needed it spelt out.
I'm just opening a can of worms to learn not to start slagging match.
I'm getting a Brooklyn that comes with a shock I've never seen and a spring weight I know not of so yes I will go with Brooklyns recomendations as it covers a large range. You have to ask questions sometimes to get information.

 

[Rip]

I obviously don't work for Showa for those that needed it spelt out.

You said almost arrogantly that you worked for showa. Fraser just called BS on you and provided proof.

 

[S.K.C.]

... this one time - in band camp....

I worked for Showa.



I forgot to mention this pic of Minaar's 4X bike was taken at Ft. Bill last year...

...and yeah, the giant billboard sized logo on the swingarm reading "Big Air" is a bit much....

 

[Tame Ape]

Eh? Haven't had one of those in what...5 years? I also never said that the Honda bike was ugly. Please read the entire thread next time, thanks.

Sigh...

Downhiller said that the Honda was ugly, you bagged on him because he has a Karpiel. I called you out for once having an ever UGLIER bike... Read your own thread.

Besides, the Honda might be a Foes Weasel that achieved 88mph and ended up in the future somehow.

 

[LukeD]

Sigh...

Downhiller said that the Honda was ugly, you bagged on him because he has a Karpiel. I called you out for once having an ever UGLIER bike... Read your own thread.

Besides, the Honda might be a Foes Weasel that achieved 88mph and ended up in the future somehow.

great scott!

 

[-dustin]

i agree with those that think the frame is ugly. i didn't dig their full-on DH frame, either, though. i'm sure it rides like a dream, but that doesn't mean much to me, as i doubt i'll ever ride one.

 

[lovebunny]

wow. you guys are pathetic. its pretty entertaining to watch. id like to see what dw or one of the gurus has to say about what skid marks is saying

 

[Rip]

wow. you guys are pathetic. its pretty entertaining to watch. id like to see what dw or one of the gurus has to say about what skid marks is saying

I could actually care less with the suspension design. I was just pointing out that someone was making a claim then tried to cover it up when it got prooved to be false.

 

[no skid marks]

If you're talking about me,then you're wrong.I stand by my claim,I think it's a bad design and don't believe shock technoligy is a good enough reason to use bad designs.I'd say it probably does eject the rider a bit still and in the hands of someone less skilled or a less capable shock tuner it would wish to eject even more. I made a harsh statement and was just refining it a bit so you internet argumen\t magnets only had more tangable reasons to debate me,now go jack off on the porn site.

 

[lovebunny]

If you're talking about me,then you're wrong.I stand by my claim,I think it's a bad design and don't believe shock technoligy is a good enough reason to use bad designs.I'd say it probably does eject the rider a bit still and in the hands of someone less skilled or a less capable shock tuner it would wish to eject even more. I made a harsh statement and was just refining it a bit so you internet argumen\t magnets only had more tangable reasons to debate me,now go jack off on the porn site.

well, you said yourself that the bikes you rode were old. so could it be that the shock tech back in those days wasnt adequate?

 

[Bicyclist]

What the hell does a vertically aligned shock have to do with rebound?

 

[Rip]

If you're talking about me,then you're wrong.I stand by my claim,I think it's a bad design and don't believe shock technoligy is a good enough reason to use bad designs.I'd say it probably does eject the rider a bit still and in the hands of someone less skilled or a less capable shock tuner it would wish to eject even more. I made a harsh statement and was just refining it a bit so you internet argumen\t magnets only had more tangable reasons to debate me,now go jack off on the porn site.

Your mother was starring in it.

Usually that is all a single pivot design needs is a stable platform shock. Why make something that can potentially be a nightmare to do anywork on? The less moving parts, the chance of something breaking decreases. That is also why there is something called rebound adjustment there slugger.

 

[no skid marks]

Ye

well, you said yourself that the bikes you rode were old. so could it be that the shock tech back in those days wasnt adequate?

ah thats correct and I think I've said something to that affect here. You probably tune out most of the rebound effects that I mentioned but to do so you'd sacrafice something else,thats probably not really a big deal on this bikes purpose.Admitadelly this would apear that I'm explaining myself into being wrong however I don't believe so. I also don't believe a shock should solve a bikes design problems as some sacrafice must be made,this may not be a problem with a smooth track surface hero rider four cross bike but to me thats a cop out and makes the bike way to specific. Honda will be winning because of a very accurately built design that will not suit the publics needs ever and may stimulate other very specific and therfore genrally useless designs.By making the shock solve problems you are narrowing the suspensions window of oportunitty. Can you guys lighten up a bit so I don't have to choose my words so carefully,I feel like I'm in court or something.Think about what I say before just trying to look cool shooting me down with cheap shots.
Usually that is all a single pivot design needs is a stable platform shock.

Usually that is all a single pivot design needs is a stable platform shock. Why make something that can potentially be a nightmare to do anywork on? The less moving parts, the chance of something breaking decreases. That is also why there is something called rebound adjustment there slugger.

Personally I don't like shocks pointing forward or upward that much,I do think the energy gets transfered,I don't think this is quite enough reson not to do it but I do think it has an effect,Oranges lurch forward after a drop etc,but the rider of any design will learn to ignore or even use a problem to thier advantage. For single pivot I like the BB7/Real concept but like I said other factors may be more inportant in the design goals to outweigh this small issue.I'm getting a racelink with an upward facing shock and although like I said it's not my favourite design the other things I like about the bike outweigh this issue.

 

[bomberboy11]

It looks cheap and ugly as sin, but I'm sure it isn't by any means.

The basic suspension layout on the Honda DH rig isn't sophisticated at all, and it seems to be doing quite alright wouldn't you say? Just remember, it's the rider, not the bike - to a point.

If the rebounding shock motion after a hit affects the speed of your ride that much, that only means one thing. You aren't going fast enough haha.

In all seriousness though, I really have wondered what effect the actuation direction of the rear shock has on a ride (upwards vs. downwards primarily - think BigHit vs. Stinky for lack of a better comparison). Maybe we could get the all-knowing DW to comment on it?

 

[dropmachine]

I guess you know more then honda and showa combined huh?

Dumbass.

Critiques the guy riding the Orange 224/ Rolling filing cabinet.

 

[Mike Buell]

So did any of you ever think of this. The whole Honda Showa program is a platform based on developing technology for motocross right? So maybe the design of this bike (and the DH bike) are not the "best designes" because they are trying, to a point, to mimic dirtbikes. With the way the swing arm and suspension and everything works together. If you look at every dirt bike ever made in the last decade by Honda, it has a vertical shock, placed just like this 4x bike allitle more then half way back. Dirtbikes are designed like this because of other limitations, like engins etc.
Just an idea I had.

 

[Transcend]

Critiques the guy riding the Orange 224/ Rolling filing cabinet.

The new ones are hydroformed and curvy...no more creases!

 

[luelling]

Check it out:

... so he's running a PIKE up front and a beer can in the back???

Why is the picture photoshopped? The crank is missing in the lower frame and there appears to be a pedal forming from no where.

 

[no skid marks]

There's a lot of variables I believe. Shock angle,location,set up,pivot location,shock ramping,dampening,and so on. I don't think the horse link design suffers as much due to shock angle amount of pivots(that absorb and transfer energy in ?dirrection)and possibly rear axle path in relation to every thing including wheel contact and bike movement(no I've not put my mind to this much as it has so many variables and they can all go to **** depending on rider and track).There's also whatever area the designer wants to put the compromise they've had to make etc to get whatever goal they've set out to achieve.The shock has to release the energy to the frame/swing arm and whatever has the least resistance at the time would move the most(not conscidering pivot energy or gyroscopic forces etc).

 

[Mike Buell]

Why is the picture photoshopped? The crank is missing in the lower frame and there appears to be a pedal forming from no where.

That stand or whatever it is has a shinny silver trangle brace that is covering up most of the crank and some of the peadle, and reflects the ground, you can see it if you look close.

 

[bomberboy11]

I don't think the horse link design suffers as much due to shock angle amount of pivots

I always thought horse links were used to mount carriages to the poor animals.

 

[bomberboy11]

Not really. If you must know, cartoons are the furthest thing from what I'm getting ready to go do. See ya!

 

[S.K.C.]

luelling:

Why is the picture photoshopped? The crank is missing in the lower frame and there appears to be a pedal forming from no where.

Actually the ENTIRE bike has been photoshopped using the latest in imagination fabrication technology.... I cut and pasted a Mountian Cycles San Andreas... you all have been arguing over a non-existant bike.

OR

You could right click the image and find your way here:

http://www.bikemagic.com/news/article/mps/UAN/4426/V/5/SP/332714698670328330332

...BikeMagic, indeed.

 

[CreeP]

to be honest, you're really seeing something that isn't there 'skidmarks'
Rebound damping was invented a long time ago to combat exactly the behavior you mention, and it doesn't matter what suspension design you have it remains a necessity, any bike set up with insufficient rebound damping will throw the rider.
and transcend, get off the poor guy's back.

 

[no skid marks]

Thanks for your support but I understand rebound and it's effect,The shock has to eject no matter how much rebound,and I was just saying that I believe that shock will push the frame upwards(a bit forward).With enough rebound to control that the bike would pack up on repeditive small hits but on a 4X bike that wouldn't matter,thats why I said it had a small window of purpose as a bike.4X only and if they decide to ad small stutters Honda will have to develop low and high speed rebound if they've not got it already.

 

[luelling]

There's a lot of variables I believe. Shock angle,location,set up,pivot location,shock ramping,dampening,and so on. I don't think the horse link design suffers as much due to shock angle amount of pivots(that absorb and transfer energy in ?dirrection)and possibly rear axle path in relation to every thing including wheel contact and bike movement(no I've not put my mind to this much as it has so many variables and they can all go to **** depending on rider and track).There's also whatever area the designer wants to put the compromise they've had to make etc to get whatever goal they've set out to achieve.The shock has to release the energy to the frame/swing arm and whatever has the least resistance at the time would move the most(not conscidering pivot energy or gyroscopic forces etc).

I know this argument is harder to make on a mountain cross bike (I race an M3...so I don't ride a single pivot) but maybe part of the reason for the simplistic design is reliability or maintenance. I know people who argue for single pivots sing this song up and down. Just a thought. I do agree that it is the rider more than the bike. It could even be that the Honda bikes have some super secret geometry and that’s the key

 

[surfinguru]

Sigh...

Downhiller said that the Honda was ugly, you bagged on him because he has a Karpiel. I called you out for once having an ever UGLIER bike... Read your own thread.

Besides, the Honda might be a Foes Weasel that achieved 88mph and ended up in the future somehow.

Damn, now where did I put those dilithium crystals?!?!


skid, you are right, it does have a small window of purpose: 4x racing!!!

I'll agree on this one point though, it is an ugly bike for sure. The thing I find interesting though is how thin the downtube *appears* at the pivot. Obviously it's been addressed, and we've only got one camera angle to work on, but it just looks like a weak spot.

Oh and I think Mike Buell got it right:

So did any of you ever think of this. The whole Honda Showa program is a platform based on developing technology for motocross right? So maybe the design of this bike (and the DH bike) are not the "best designes" because they are trying, to a point, to mimic dirtbikes. With the way the swing arm and suspension and everything works together. If you look at every dirt bike ever made in the last decade by Honda, it has a vertical shock, placed just like this 4x bike allitle more then half way back. Dirtbikes are designed like this because of other limitations, like engins etc.

 

[Jorgen]

The Honda...

And the BMW...

To me it looks like the BMW is a bad bike, since the shock is even more vertical than on the Honda.

Weird, I always thought BMW made good bikes.

Ah, ****, I have to sell my Turner RFX too...crap.

 

[no skid marks]

Can't you think for yourself. I made the Brooklyn point myself ya fuktard. Read all of my posts I'm not going to rewrite it all for a twit like you to understand. I may be wrong(I don't think so)but not one of you obvious smart arses has made any statement to prove me wrong.
If the rider for any reason gets his/her weight of the top of that bike(above shock)normally when unsetled(worse time)it will buck the back up on rebound or push the back wheel out(helping to break traction)when leaned over. With such a dirrect approach no energy is transfered to pivots or anywhere else.
Oh **** I'm over this,go find another bit of bread to squable over you pigions you.

 

[Downhiller]

Says the guy riding a Karpiel...

i didnt say that karpiel is beuy biut that honda is most horrible bike i saw in few months...

 

[Rik]

I'm on the "damn that's an ugly bike" bandwagon, aesthetically it's horrid. And really, that's about all we can judge with only a picture.

 

[thaflyinfatman]

Can't you think for yourself. I made the Brooklyn point myself ya fuktard. Read all of my posts I'm not going to rewrite it all for a twit like you to understand. I may be wrong(I don't think so)but not one of you obvious smart arses has made any statement to prove me wrong.
If the rider for any reason gets his/her weight of the top of that bike(above shock)normally when unsetled(worse time)it will buck the back up on rebound or push the back wheel out(helping to break traction)when leaned over. With such a dirrect approach no energy is transfered to pivots or anywhere else.
Oh **** I'm over this,go find another bit of bread to squable over you pigions you.

Sorry but you don't understand how swingarms work. The shock is not the ONLY thing providing any reaction force to the front triangle, there is the pivot as well. The net force upwards on the front triangle is in fact a function of the placement of the centre of mass relative to the axles. It does not matter where the shock is mounted, or what linkages are used, or where pivots are, or whatever. All those forces are internal to the bike and NOT directly/specifically related to the force on the axle. A vertically mounted shock won't "eject" a rider upwards in the same sense that a horizontally mounted shock won't fire you forwards (or backwards if you mount the reservoir at the wrong end OMG!) along the trail every time you compress it.

 

[no skid marks]

I stated all that(accept the backward ejection),I said the pivots take and transfer energy. Picture that bike if you pushed down on the seat (compressed the shock)and then let go. Yes every bike will have a similar effect but I believe this bike more so.I've felt the effects I speek of not just thought them up.
Okay I'm going until somebody satisfies my curriosity and explains it better than I have.
Please read all my posts before having a crack at my theory.
I do not believe this is that big a deal of a design flaw but it is old tachnoligy and the things I'm saying do exist. I'm only arguing so strongly in defence to my statement to justify it, not because I think Honda have made the biggest mistake in the world. For 4x it's probably fine,I just think it's primitive but I guess after nutting it out to prove my point that simple is all they need for the aplication it's for.

 

[verticult]

because the bike has no linkage you can look at the main pivot and both the shock mounts and see that they form a triangle. In essence the swing arm side shock bolt travels toward the frame shock bolt. Basically it's a "linear" configuration. Because the shock is tilted upward a bit, you might say it's slightly regressive which is said to be pretty good for air shocks. By way of linkage you can position the shock anywhere on the bike and unless you can visualize (or with computer software) how levers work pretty clearly it's difficult to know how shock angle effects suspension action.

 

[Akula_7]

Here is Minnaar about to have his ass handed to him by Prokop!

 

[no skid marks]

I still stand by what I've said but have concluded that due to the small amount of shock stroke/wheel travell that it really would have very little amount of space to gain momentum and the stored energy in the shock would have little effect, and be relativelly small anyway. I think on a larger scale it would have more noticable effects. I do remember however that the Crack'n'fails of very similar design did have the pogo effect.
From my own conclusion it would work well as it's designed purpose but that's it and on a rough track setting up the rebound would be difficult. Goodnight from Oz and I hope I've not made to many enemies on this site from being forced to defend myself. I blame whoever called me dumbarse and kill yourself at the start.All just good natured banta I suppose.

 

[Tame Ape]

Swing-arms are different...

 

[MOTODH]

What does Honda have against cutting seatposts

 

[JRB]

how can you tell me a big decal on the swingarm saying big air does not make a bike look like a walmart bike

It killed it for me immediately. He can still kick my ass though.

 

[JRB]

I love this thread just because someone tried to show how much he knows about suspension, and then called them a "horse link". hahahahahahaha - best thread ever.