How have prices gone up?? Other than frames maybe, prices of almost everything have come down quite a bit. You can buy good quality hydraulic disc brakes from Avid or Shimano for like $100/end now! Look at the kind of bike you get with a complete Glory or whatever compared to what the same money got you say 8 years ago. There aren't "leaps and bounds" left to be made, same as with motorsports - everything is just refinement these days.
New Vivid AIR!?
- Thread starter SylentK
- Start date
Giant would be one of the few brands which has kept things relatively affordable but suspension in particular has shot up and many other parts are spiraling out of control on the high-end.
Years ago a top of the line single crown fork was around $500-600 - these days double that price and that is way beyond the increases in the various costs of doing business/inflation.
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Spesh's prices across the board dropped from 09-10. The complete demo went from an MSRP of 6300 - 5500 with arguably a better parts spec. My '10 Stumpjumper was 100 less than the 09 model and had far better parts on it. I think as a whole the industry is trying to make entry to mid level bikes and parts more attainable for Joe Average rider.
That's what you get when you want the best of the best. Since when does the High End of anything in any industry come down in price from year to year? (disregard the current housing market
)Gotta Pay to Play
Specialized would be one of the big offenders and I'm not talking about short term corrections like that due to economic times. Maybe you haven't followed them long enough but I've been following them the two decades I've been in the sport. In the early 90s I had the top of the line Sworks M2 HT - it was custom built piece by piece rather than the savings you get from a complete. Today the top of the line S-works XC HT goes for about double what I paid and its a complete bike, not custom build from a frameset.Spesh's prices across the board dropped from 09-10...
That's what you get when you want the best of the best. Since when does the High End of anything in any industry come down in price from year to year? (disregard the current housing market
Its not unreasonable to assume as the sport became more popular prices should have declined slightly or at least stayed around inflation with other goods.
It...will...be...awesome. I...want...one.
Did you really just compare an early 90's hardtail spec'd with what was considered high-end parts for the time with a high end race bike from 2010? Did that just happen, or am i imagining it?
top of the line at that time was pretty pedestrian by today's standards, unless you consider forged cantilever brakes to be cutting edge (there was no such thing as brakes with magnesium caliper bodies, carbon brake levers,and ti hardware in 1993). Top shelf components are high performance, strong, light, and entirely more complicated to design and produce (ultra light disc brake system v. cantilevers, double-butted spokes v. full rim systems weighing <1500g for a pair).
here's the bike you mention. have a look at that part spec, it's a lot more than umma-gumma tires, threadless headsets, hyperglide chainrings, kevlar beads, and a 'metal-matrix' aluminum frame that got everyone excited almost 20 years ago. http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?sid=10Stumpjumper&eid=4342&menuItemId=9247
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They had plenty of high-end high-tech components back then with carbon fiber, Ti, ceramic coating, double butted spokes w/alloy nipples etc. Metal matrix alloys are no joke either...
Here is spec from 1992 spec vintage:
double butted spoke with alloy nipples were once high tech and cutting edge, that's my point. And mountain bke magazines actually did shoot-outs comparing quick release skewers . . . those were the best!
The level of technology on a modern race bike far and above what was available back then. Your cr18 rims weighed 490g each and cost $25 today (about $50-60 back then), the entire wheelset on the '10 bike weighs under 1400g
the industry was barely scratching the surface in terms of materials and high-end manufacturing (cnc machined was still considered exotic) The ceiling is a whole lot higher now than it was in 1992 in terms of what is available. . . but hey, you're welcome to your own unique sense of logic if it makes sense to you.
now back to talking air shocks on dh bikes . . . .
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i think of this from the last few posts 
I like air shocks particullarly the roco wc air and on the jedi it sits mid stroke but absolutely sucks up everything in its way.
its great at high speed and nasty courses, for DJn add a bit of air or for pedalling. I run mine low pressure and love it.
Im pretty excited to see if it lives up to the claims. Cant see it wouldnt because at some point we will have enough input and we have the technology so it isnt if but when.
Roco WC air kicks @$$ imo I love it on my bike and I hope this thing works as claimed that would kick @rse....
its great at high speed and nasty courses, for DJn add a bit of air or for pedalling. I run mine low pressure and love it.
Im pretty excited to see if it lives up to the claims. Cant see it wouldnt because at some point we will have enough input and we have the technology so it isnt if but when.
Roco WC air kicks @$$ imo I love it on my bike and I hope this thing works as claimed that would kick @rse....
Dude, what a breath of fresh air!!! I have seen people absolutely tear it up on what would be laughed into oblivion here on RM.
On the flip side, there is something to be said for being stoked on your bike, but unfortunately, when we grow up, that usually means the latest/greatest/most expensive.
That example was just about Specialized pricing on the high-end. Beside that the bike from 1992/3 isn't significantly slower or less capable in XC.
Sure there were refinements in high-end MAINSTREAM offerings in frames (especially first gen FS design - many sucked major arse), brakes, wheel components, cranks, and other drivetrain components, but there were cutting edge companies at that time such as the top of the line magic motorcycle and sweetparts sweetwing cranks - the modern mainstream parts are just refinements of these less mainstream high-end parts from then and/or borrow existing materials, processes, and technology from other sports and fields (we are talking bicycles here, all the major R&D comes from elsewhere). Most of the suspension theory in use on MTBs today draws from knowledge and experience from motor sports the 70s and 80s. Silly wheel fads are also really old in MTB with Geoff Apps doing 29ers and 650B almost 30 years ago - hopefully those hybrid/700c bike wheel don't go much further in DH, back when I started everyone knew hybrid bikes sucked
Hell the latest and greatest SRAM Hammerschmidt system is nearly 100 years old:
Back to suspension if you compared the old (say 7-8 years ago like socket mentioned for brakes) top of the line single crown FR Marz Z1 QR20 HSCV cart fork which were $500-600 to the current ones, the gains are evolutionary refinements. We aren't seeing new technology but refinement/evolution and/or bringing existing technology to mtb, but the pricing is unreasonably about double from then. Fortunately though the consumer does have some say about these ridiculous prices because you can buy leftovers for about the same as back then especially for less popular brands/models. Hopefully that's what happens to this air shock until they price it realistically like Fox did with the DHX air.
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Was that the 5", 30mm stanchion Z1 with a rebound adjuster for a non-user-serviceable damper cartridge and three piece bonded lowers that you're comparing to a 180mm travel, 40mm stanchion Totem with adjustable rebound, low speed compression, high speed compression, lockout, and an air spring... that's lighter as well as significantly stronger than the Z1? If you want a 5" travel, relatively heavy fork that doesn't have any of the bells and whistles then you CAN still get something that's still lighter, stronger, more adjustable and better to ride than the 2002 Z1 but costs less - like a Pike, or a Domain.That example was just about Specialized pricing on the high-end. Beside that the bike from 1992/3 isn't significantly slower or less capable in XC.
Sure there were refinements in high-end MAINSTREAM offerings in frames (especially first gen FS design - many sucked major arse), brakes, wheel components, cranks, and other drivetrain components, but there were cutting edge companies at that time such as the top of the line magic motorcycle and sweetparts sweetwing cranks - the modern mainstream parts are just refinements of these less mainstream high-end parts from then and/or borrow existing materials, processes, and technology from other sports and fields (we are talking bicycles here, all the major R&D comes from elsewhere). Most of the suspension theory in use on MTBs today draws from knowledge and experience from motor sports the 70s and 80s. Silly wheel fads are also really old in MTB with Geoff Apps doing 29ers and 650B almost 30 years ago - hopefully those hybrid/700c bike wheel don't go much further in DH, back when I started everyone knew hybrid bikes sucked
Back to suspension if you compared the old (say 7-8 years ago like socket mentioned for brakes) top of the line single crown FR Marz Z1 QR20 HSCV cart fork which were $500-600 to the current ones, the gains are evolutionary refinements. We aren't seeing new technology but refinement/evolution and/or bringing existing technology to mtb, but the pricing is unreasonably about double from then. Fortunately though the consumer does have some say about these ridiculous prices because you can buy leftovers for about the same as back then especially for less popular brands/models. Hopefully that's what happens to this air shock until they price it realistically like Fox did with the DHX air.
Honestly mate I think you're just building a straw man because you find the very pointy end of bike equipment to be too expensive - and fair enough, I'm not going to buy a Vivid Air either, but we've never had it better and to pretend otherwise is IMO just silly. The budget options ARE there and they're still significantly better than what you got for the same money years ago.
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who pays $229 for 350g pedals?
http://superstar.tibolts.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=42&products_id=276
Don't think anyone mentioned it, but spring / damper rates aside, the biggest flaw on air shocks (or the hardest to correct) is the added stiction from the extra set of seals they require... and I can't see the Vivid Air doing anything about that in a hurry.
Compared to the top-end coil shocks (CCDB + BOS) with incredibly low stiction and buttery smooth direction changes, I can't really see the Vivid stacking up. The other thing is, RS seem to have issues with reliability (the Vivid coils are hit-and-miss enough as it is) so I'd have trouble putting faith in a DH air shock from them personally.
Compared to the top-end coil shocks (CCDB + BOS) with incredibly low stiction and buttery smooth direction changes, I can't really see the Vivid stacking up. The other thing is, RS seem to have issues with reliability (the Vivid coils are hit-and-miss enough as it is) so I'd have trouble putting faith in a DH air shock from them personally.
socket - vid works on chrome fine for me.
as for the speed sensitive nature of the shock, (just thinking out loud here) could the nature of it having two air chambers make it speed sensitive? the hole between the two chambers gets closed off from the main chamber by the main piston, could the holes/orifice connecting the two chambers have a reasonable amount restriction to the air flow hence keeping more air pressure in the main chamber once the holes are closed off, hence high spring rate for higher shaft speeds.
or is air just way too compressible to make a difference dynamically and those holes only come into play for setting the negative air spring.
as for the speed sensitive nature of the shock, (just thinking out loud here) could the nature of it having two air chambers make it speed sensitive? the hole between the two chambers gets closed off from the main chamber by the main piston, could the holes/orifice connecting the two chambers have a reasonable amount restriction to the air flow hence keeping more air pressure in the main chamber once the holes are closed off, hence high spring rate for higher shaft speeds.
or is air just way too compressible to make a difference dynamically and those holes only come into play for setting the negative air spring.
Was wondering why no one mentioned that though I think a lot of the weight wennies can live with a bit more stiction if the shock wont dive like dhx air. What I'm really waiting for is the bos air shock we've heard rumors about. Even if it has higher stiction than the coil bos with their build quality it may be really good in that dept.
It's possible, but it's been under development for a long time now. I 1st saw the shock last year, and it was being tested the year before too. The tester I talked to said it was better than the Vivid coil.
I think the price / performance ratio is acceptable, Most coil shocks with Ti springs are a lot more money, this is lighter and if it performs as well or better than it's worth the cash. I could ebay my shock for maybe $200, save $200 on not buying a Ti spring, that only leaves another $200 I need to come up with
...and realistically, most dh'ers won't be paying full retail anyway.
Point 1 podium pedals
Twenty 6 Prerunner Pedals
Someone should start a thread about the new Vivid Air.
Aren't they basically just using a Solo Air setup where it equalises at hard topout? If so, and I'm pretty sure they are, then there is no airflow between chambers during normal shock movement.
Except my pedals are 270g and cost half of what the twenty6s do...
Duh, it's business. "We have a great product that people will want, let's make it expensive and make some money". Simple economics, tis how the world works, and it's not going to be changing any time soon.
no idea, i was going by the cut away pics of it at around 52 sec on the vital vid. it looks like there are some holes between the main chamber and outer one which will be covered by the main piston around sag point.
looking at it again it seems like its just the grooves for the air springs to self equilibrate and the holes that connect the two chambers are right at the top of the inner sleeve.
Arent new twenty6 265 not 330g? Also mag or alu body? If mag than the argument is invalid for 3/4s of the populationExcept my pedals are 270g and cost half of what the twenty6s do...
$200+ pedals are invalid for more than 3/4s of the populationArent new twenty6 265 not 330g? Also mag or alu body? If mag than the argument is invalid for 3/4s of the population
You are right and I would have to be crazy or have a lot of loose cash to spend that much on a set of pedals. I just think mag pedals shouldn't really be compared to alu ones as in most cases it's like comparing am gear to dh gear. Some ppl get away with it but for the majority of us hacks mag pedals were a stupid fad$200+ pedals are invalid for more than 3/4s of the population
Still lets please some ppl and stop it here before the angry mob gets big enough to hurt us
I don't understand what's so bad about mag pedals? Are they slightly softer so the pins rip out more easily or something? I'd be interested to know how different it is. Certainly I do lose pins occasionally, but when I swapped from my alu dmr v12s to my mag dmr v12s "back in the day" I didn't notice them being noticeably worse in that regard.
Loosing pins and in many cases much easier to destroy on the rocks. For non rocky courses cool but I tend to drag my pedals on the ground quite often. I think you being a better rider do it a lot less
They are simply less hit resistand in my opinion.There just might be a slight difference in what comes in to making a full carbon frame compared to just welding pieces of butted tubes together...
Every size (17"-18"-19") has its own mold and has to be designed individually. The longer and shorter tubes across the sizes stress the frames differently.
Yea, where do some of these guys like Sacha White or Frank Wadelton get off? They're just slapping a couple pieces of tubing together.pyynö;3440313 said:
Carbon's way sicker!
Hot Rod
Can someone explain how this works? Boobar is talking about it compensating for heat/thinner oil... so does that mean that as it gets hotter the "hot rod" somehow gets longer and closes off more of the oil port? If so, how quickly could this happen, will it retract just as quick?
Maybe I'm missing something...
Can someone explain how this works? Boobar is talking about it compensating for heat/thinner oil... so does that mean that as it gets hotter the "hot rod" somehow gets longer and closes off more of the oil port? If so, how quickly could this happen, will it retract just as quick?
Maybe I'm missing something...
I don't think so.
The rod expands and contracts as fast as it can heat up or cool down, which only needs to be as fast as the oil heats and cools. Since the rod is submerged in oil, it probably changes temp as fast as the oil does.
Damn I am curious to see some real life reviews of this thing.... Pretty exciting.
What material are they using for the rod that would do this?
Also... so they've somehow managed to make the damping rod change length as the oil viscosity changes, but what about the oil passing by the shims? The shims obviously don't change as the rod does...
the measure of how much energy it takes for a piece of material to change temperature is given by the specific heat of that material, which is normally measured in J/kg.K (joules per kilogram Kelvin).
The thermophysical property which governs how a material expands or contracts based on temperature is the coefficient of expansion denoted by the greek symbol alpha. (there are two alphas for solids, one of volumetric expansion, the other for linear expansion)
What i'm alluding to is that the rate of expansion of the thermoplastic used in the hot rod, as well it's ability to change temperature (governed by it's specific heat) is not necessarily in proportion to the rate at which the oil changes temperature.
But we could easily stop any speculation about the exact nature of the interaction of the oil and the hotrod if we knew teh grade of the oil, and the tyep of thermoplastic used.
The air can insulates the damper, making the shock run hotter than a coil unit. It also contributes heat every time it's compressed. The heat causes the oil to get thinner (less rebound & compression damping) and the spring to get firmer (air pressure rises with temperature).
Rockshox addressed the rebound fade with the "hot rod" but ignored the compression fade and spring rate firming. How did everyone miss that? I love the adjustability and progression of air springs and use an air fork but unless you're talking a Foes-like 2:1 ratio I think heat is the problem with air shocks.
How have they not come up with more thermally stable suspension fluid yet? Then a thermally controlled, volume adjusting air can would solve the spring rate problem.
Rockshox addressed the rebound fade with the "hot rod" but ignored the compression fade and spring rate firming. How did everyone miss that? I love the adjustability and progression of air springs and use an air fork but unless you're talking a Foes-like 2:1 ratio I think heat is the problem with air shocks.
How have they not come up with more thermally stable suspension fluid yet? Then a thermally controlled, volume adjusting air can would solve the spring rate problem.
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That's a good point, and maybe peeps w/ air shocks on their DH bike can add more info. But my RP23 has not experienced the hot air fade that my 2006 DHX Air did (and that was horrible). But I don't exactly ride my trailbike as hard as my DH bike, so that's probably not a good comparison. Perhaps the larger volume air chamber(s) of newer air shocks aren't as affected?