[HarryCallahan]

I disagree. You look before you leap. You do not hit a bridge at high speed unless you have looked at it in advance. IE: even in yoru scenario, it was rider error in a dangerous sport. NEXT.

The bridge wasn't a naturally occuring terrain feature. It is a man made object. There are fundamental design principles and probably a building code at play here, and the resort is a commercial enterprise, encouraging bicycling.

 

[Transcend]

The bridge wasn't a naturally occuring terrain feature. It is a man made object. There are fundamental design principles and probably a building code at play here, and the resort is a commercial enterprise, encouraging bicycling.

hey if you wanna be an idiot and hit a feature you have never seen balls out, go right ahead. But don't expect the rest of the world to pay for your stupidity, buddy. Take a little responsibility for your actions.

 

[Transcend]

Are the jumps shady or are people being stupid? Look at the course at MSA that took out Johnny Wadell, and Bariel....everyone has said there was nothing wrong with the jump, but riders were not using there judgement and hitting it to fast, cause they saw the finish line in site.

April Lawyer broke her Collar bone on a jump on that same day that Haruko Fujinaka the Japanses girl was killed. Why did she crash? Not cause the jump was bad, but because by her own admitance she didn't notice that a rut had started to form as practice went on.

let ,e just be the first to say, that YES, there was MAJOR issues with that jump at ste anne. 80% of the pro field crashedon it during either practice or race day. It was near suicidal. Built badly (huge G out, huge lip) and built in such a way that you hit is completely spun out...as fast as you would be going on any Dh course (think near mammoth speeds).

Big Bear has had an issue building crappy, dangerous jumps.

Not that it has anything to do with the current situation, but their jumps have always sucked.

 

[PatBranch]

Im sure they had waivers. Were they not written very well? The chain of Vans Skateparks at shopping malls have waivors and I don't think they have ever had a major lawsuite.

 

[Transcend]

Waivers do not do anything. You cannot sign away a constitutional right.

 

[HarryCallahan]

hey if you wanna be an idiot and hit a feature you have never seen balls out, go right ahead. But don't expect the rest of the world to pay for your stupidity, buddy. Take a little responsibility for your actions.

Transcend, I guess I didn't put enough context in with that quote about the bridge, but on the other hand, I was quoting your comment on another post in this thread. The bridge in question wasn't a "feature" or a stunt, it was a regular bridge that the resort routed traffic over, only the bridge boards were so far apart and parallel to the direction of travel that bike tires could and did drop between them.

So let's see: The resort built the bridge, the resort took money from paying customers, then directed people to ride across the bridge on the trail in question, but the bridge wasn't safe to ride across. Who needs to take responsibility?

 

[meatboot]

Waivers do not do anything. You cannot sign away a constitutional right.

As people on this forum are very fond of reminding us in the 1st Amendment context, you do not have any constitutional rights vis a vis private actors. The Bill of Rights (and the rest of the Constituion) only operates to restrict the behavior of the government.

It is true that some states have deemed the right to sue for negligence so fundamental that you cannot contract it way absent truly extraordinary circumstances. It is also true that waivers are almost always subject to attack by a creative lawyer, though not always successfully.

However, that does not mean that waivers "do not do anything." Waivers are sometimes invalidated, but they are often upheld, too -- which often ends litigation at the summary judgment stage. More importantly, waivers serve to discourage unsophisticated victims from pursuing a claim. Even an invalid waiver introduces an additional element of chance into litigation and thus serves as an important negotiating point for defendants.

However, in a case such as this, were it appears the insurance company is directing the suit, the waiver's disincentive functions wilt in the face of the incredible legal resources the insurer can bring to bear.

 

[Jeremy R]

Transcend, I guess I didn't put enough context in with that quote about the bridge, but on the other hand, I was quoting your comment on another post in this thread. The bridge in question wasn't a "feature" or a stunt, it was a regular bridge that the resort routed traffic over, only the bridge boards were so far apart and parallel to the direction of travel that bike tires could and did drop between them.

So let's see: The resort built the bridge, the resort took money from paying customers, then directed people to ride across the bridge on the trail in question, but the bridge wasn't safe to ride across. Who needs to take responsibility?

I don't see how this is any different than all the trails in Pisgah National Forest. All the "bridges" are made specifically for hikers. They are little parrallel log bridges and most of them are not safe to ride, having gaps for tires etc...... And these trails are open to mountain bikes, and we often come up on these bridges rather fast. You have 2 options, you can get off your bike and walk across them, or you can try to ride them and if you fall off, you take responsibility for being a dip$hit. IMO, suing is not an option.
We feel lucky just having access to this awesome terrain, and ALL the riders I know would never do anything to jeopardize it. Its simply about taking responsibility for your own actions, and not punishing others because they did not take into account ones ultra high level of stupidity.

 

[narlus]

apples and oranges though...wasn't the bridge case at a ski resort (ie, you pay to access the park), as opposed to a national or state forest?

 

[c2001]

Team Big Bear over exaggerates too and blows everything out of proportion. It's their own fault they are getting Summit sued. They are always cutting costs at riders xpenses.They use rebar for course markers. They don't maintain trails .They supply no communication or education of the risk involved with their poor design, lack thereof or pole marker choice.

They don't put adequate staff on course. If there isn't enough money in it for them, then they shouldn't have been doing it. Hiring incapable teenagers who lack self esteem to be in charge of course design with no real experience is asinine.

So a few people won't be able to ride, but no-one will again be paralyzed or killed there. It isn't Summit's fault as much as Team Big Bears. I hope they don't continue with their evil ways everywhere else. I hope they are shut down. And they don't like DHer's anyway. They can't stand them.

I think we are all stupid for having anything to do with them. But they are practically the monopoly now. Until they do it right they shouldn't do it at all. But who knows what it will take to stop them. "

if all that's true, that's too bad, but at the same time, if you're taking your first run or walking inspection and see there's nothing but rebar and no marshals on course, it's YOUR responsibility to NOT ride or to ACCEPT the risk of the way they set it up.

go get your money back and say you're not racing because it's unsafe. TBB only became a monopoly because people went to their races regardless of course or condition.

races in the rockies are badass (i know from experience), everyone says races out east are run pretty well (i've heard)...there are plenty of places to race with good promoters and good tracks. so-cal people just might have to work harder at getting to races now and that's a good thing. if TBB was so bad, everyone should have told them to f- off and the racers should have gone where it was done right or just not race at all. that would have made TBB go away and better promoters step in (if all of what you're saying about TBBs attitude towards DHers is true).

 

[Jeremy R]

apples and oranges though...wasn't the bridge case at a ski resort (ie, you pay to access the park), as opposed to a national or state forest?

Yeah I agree, paying does make a difference, but still, the first time you ride down the hill, you check out jumps, rock gardens, stunts etc. , the same way that you would check out a some sketchy wooden bridge. As a mountain biker I just assume that all wooden bridges are crap, because most are.
If you hit that bridge full tilt on your first run, endo, lose a couple teeth etc..,
then you chalk that one up to knocking a little more stupidity out of yourself for the future. You don't get a place shut down, because you did not take precaution, even if the bridge was crap and should not have been there.

 

[Transcend]

Transcend, I guess I didn't put enough context in with that quote about the bridge, but on the other hand, I was quoting your comment on another post in this thread. The bridge in question wasn't a "feature" or a stunt, it was a regular bridge that the resort routed traffic over, only the bridge boards were so far apart and parallel to the direction of travel that bike tires could and did drop between them.

So let's see: The resort built the bridge, the resort took money from paying customers, then directed people to ride across the bridge on the trail in question, but the bridge wasn't safe to ride across. Who needs to take responsibility?

It doesn't matter. A bridge is a bridge. They directed you to ride over it, big deal. Take a look before you ride over it at mach 1. If they told you to jump off a cliff, would you just assume it was clear on the other side, or would you look first?

edit: I taipe gud

 

[Zutroy]

let ,e just be the first to say, that YES, there was MAJOR issues with that jump at ste anne. 80% of the pro field crashedon it during either practice or race day. It was near suicidal. Built badly (huge G out, huge lip) and built in such a way that you hit is completely spun out...as fast as you would be going on any Dh course (think near mammoth speeds).

Big Bear has had an issue building crappy, dangerous jumps.

Not that it has anything to do with the current situation, but their jumps have always sucked.

I'll have to take your word on it, i wasen't there. Just going by what i was told by guys i talked to, and from what some of the pros wrote on their websites about it. I know alot of them said it was ok as long as the checked up going into it, which alot of people look like they didn't do, although from the Vid i saw of it a couple guys had that thing nailed, and some didn't judging my the number of guys that had their asses aboce there heads in the air.

Now the question becomes should you have a jump that requires you to check up that close to the finish line?

 

[Damn True]

No, a jump should be built to be hit at racing speed in that particular section.

That has been one of BB's failings in this area. They have tried to use jumps as speed controls.

 

[spookydave]

No, a jump should be built to be hit at racing speed in that particular section.

That has been one of BB's failings in this area. They have tried to use jumps as speed controls.

Hey now, but at least you got to see me eat $hit real good that day!! lol

 

[Damn True]

I don't relish watching friends get carried away on backboards.

 

[Zutroy]

I don't relish watching friends get carried away on backboards.

Me either, nor do i like being on one myself.

To me though racing DH is all about control, and part of being in control is knowing when to slow down for a section, to me checking up for a jump is no differnet than slowing down to drop into a rock garden that you can't hit at full speed.

Yeah it ads more danger probably having to do that, since you can massive over jump it or get sent off a bad angle, but lots of courses have"dangerous" sections, i don't think i know anyone pro or am, that hasen't gone down on Yardsale in VT at one time or another.

 

[Damn True]

Well there isnt a 20' double in the middle of "yardsale" because the racing speed for that section would not allow it.

 

[Transcend]

I'll have to take your word on it, i wasen't there. Just going by what i was told by guys i talked to, and from what some of the pros wrote on their websites about it. I know alot of them said it was ok as long as the checked up going into it, which alot of people look like they didn't do, although from the Vid i saw of it a couple guys had that thing nailed, and some didn't judging my the number of guys that had their asses aboce there heads in the air.

Now the question becomes should you have a jump that requires you to check up that close to the finish line?

BINGO. The jump was horribly built, but at slow speeds or with Cedric like skill it was doable. Hell gracia got completely flat on it. During practice most people crashed after hitting it too fast. They slowed down for the rest of practice with some of the top guys crawling over it.

All bets are off in a race run tho, on what is possibly the most prestigious mountain in DH world cups. No way you should have to check 200 feet from the finish line, after having rolled about 2000 yards into it flat out in a tuck.

It was a race run, even if common sense says tap the brakes, how many top guys do you think are actually going to do it? Not many. It was just a bad idea start to finish.

Big bear on the other hand, builds DANGEROUS jumps. They suck, plain and simple, but it is the same idea. If you hit them slow, they are fine.

 

[MikeD]

I think we're all ignoring the shark pit obstacle, which is really what pushed the course into the dangerous category. Those things had frikking laser beams on their frikking heads...

 

[Zark]

I think we're all ignoring the shark pit obstacle, which is really what pushed the course into the dangerous category. Those things had frikking laser beams on their frikking heads...

I was pissed when they only had ill tempered sea bass for the AmCups

 

[heikkihall]

Well there isnt a 20' double in the middle of "yardsale" because the racing speed for that section would not allow it.

Well the same is true for most jumps in race courses. I have yet to see a jump that can be jumped by some expert going 20 miles an hour while still being safe for a pro to jump at 30 miles an hour. Building a jump that will be the proper size for everybodys speed is impossible. Everyone goes a different speed on the race course that is why there is racing to begin with. When there is a jump on a course you can only go one speed, maybe marginally faster if you have enough experience. You cant jump sea otters jumps going all out, you deffinately cant jump mammoths jumps all out, so I think people just need to learn their own basic skills about jumping a bike and realize that even though this is a race run you might actually be better off touching the brakes before you hit that lip.

 

[HarryCallahan]

Maybe the disagreement over the bridge and responsibility lies in what each of us is picturing. Words and phrases like "stunts", "features", "sketchy wooden bridge" keep coming up. Yet what I'm picturing is a permanent bridge over something else, like a stream or road cut. I've skied and hiked over dozens of these things at various ski resorts around the western US. They are safe whether you cross them at 5 mph or 40 mph. These aren't "stunts" you have to "check out", any more than you have to "check out" whether the stairs in the lodge are going to collapse.

The primitive bridges that Jeremy is describing in Pisgah were clearly designed for hikers and it would clearly be questionable and a personal judgement call as to whether you'd ride across them. For that matter, you'd want to be real thoughtful about walking across them too. Log bridges in the woods can be very slick and treacherous. We've got stuff like that on trails in the forests where I'm at, too, and even in remote areas of the less developed state parks. And, as narlus points out, they are all on trails built for hiking, on public land, in a primitive, backcountry setting. This is way different than the bridge I described in the first paragraph.

I believe in personal responsibility, and racing can certainly be dangerous. No one should undertake it without being willing to accept the risks. The reason I keep hammering on this issue is that responsibility cuts both ways. It strikes me there are a lot of folks rushing to judgement on this without knowing all the facts. A waiver isn't a magic shield that absolves a race venue from all liability. Every waiver I've ever signed starts something like this:
"Read this. This waiver limits our liability." Note that word "Limits".

What I'm saying here is that maybe the lawsuit or lawsuits against Snow summit are baseless. But maybe they screwed up . The courts will sort that out. Meanwhile SS made a business decision to drop DH. That suggest to me they weren't making that much money off it. If it is a viable business, one of the other resorts at Big Bear or over in the San Gabriels will pick it up.

 

[Zutroy]

It was a race run, even if common sense says tap the brakes, how many top guys do you think are actually going to do it? Not many. It was just a bad idea start to finish.

Big bear on the other hand, builds DANGEROUS jumps. They suck, plain and simple, but it is the same idea. If you hit them slow, they are fine.

Maybe that's part of the problem with things. Learning to know when to hit the brakes is part of being a successful racer, know matter what you race bicycle, car, boat, snowboard....what ever it is. At some point you have to use you brain and pinning it all the time isen't the answer, even in a big race with the finishline in site.

In a way it seem like DH racing is in denile a bit about what can happen to you in a big crash on something like that at speed. There should be a voice in your head telling you to back off, and you can listen too it. Could you see if guys racing the Indy 500 had that attitude? You'd have dead drivers all over the place.

 

[HarryCallahan]

I think we're all ignoring the shark pit obstacle, which is really what pushed the course into the dangerous category. Those things had frikking laser beams on their frikking heads...

I don't know about that being the worst obstacle. If you carried enough speed over it, you were good. It was the rabid grizzly bears that worried me. You know those things can hit 40mph!!

 

[Orvan]

Zutroy hit the spot. Control. As a racer, you have to adapt to situations provided by the course. That's how you gain a bit of an advantage in knowing how to clean sections.

Sort of off topic...(can't shut my trap anymore)
I was the third racer or so behind Brian when he crashed on that tabled jump on that fateful (for him) Gotta Thunder 4 race run format. Knowing the jump and where the rebar was, without a doubt, rider error!!!! Can I sue anybody for my ruined race run (delayed my start at the start gate for 25+ minutes only to be flagged down at the jump "to roll them" on my race run). Brian we wished you well then and we still wish you well now. There's wheelchair class in BB you know...or used to!

Orven (that dude you were talking to about that same jump with Chelsea on top before your fateful run).

 

[heikkihall]

Maybe that's part of the problem with things. Learning to know when to hit the brakes is part of being a successful racer, know matter what you race bicycle, car, boat, snowboard....what ever it is. At some point you have to use you brain and pinning it all the time isen't the answer, even in a big race with the finishline in site.

In a way it seem like DH racing is in denile a bit about what can happen to you in a big crash on something like that at speed. There should be a voice in your head telling you to back off, and you can listen too it. Could you see if guys racing the Indy 500 had that attitude? You'd have dead drivers all over the place.

I agree with you. Part of going fast is knowing when to slow down. I was standing with Transcend watching the finish line of St Anne that year and both of us noticed that Peaty was the only one that noticeably slowed down before he got to that jump. He won, and everyone who didnt touch their brakes seemed to crash. I think what happened to that jump was the run in to it got straightened out more and more every day of practice. They had to move a bunch of hay bails to swich over the course from mtnx to dh and back again and when it was switched over for the final day of racing and qualifying it had a straighter path into the jumps. This meant more speed and it seemed to send alot of people over the bars. Thats what was dangerous about that jump. There werent many if any crashes on that thing until the race run came around. Watching the last 15-20 guys in that race down there was scary.

 

[-BB-]

Zutroy hit the spot. Control. As a racer, you have to adapt to situations provided by the course. That's how you gain a bit of an advantage in knowing how to clean sections.

Sort of off topic...(can't shut my trap anymore)
I was the third racer or so behind Brian when he crashed on that tabled jump on that fateful (for him) Gotta Thunder 4 race run format. Knowing the jump and where the rebar was, without a doubt, rider error!!!! Can I sue anybody for my ruined race run (delayed my start at the start gate for 25+ minutes only to be flagged down at the jump "to roll them" on my race run). Brian we wished you well then and we still wish you well now. There's wheelchair class in BB you know...or used to!

Orven (that dude you were talking to about that same jump with Chelsea on top before your fateful run).

Is the dude that is suing BB Chelsa's old Boyfriend?
I know he was in the same situation.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Brian we wished you well then and we still wish you well now. There's wheelchair class in BB you know...or used to!

Orven, that was kinda a rough comment there.

 

[Transcend]

I agree with you. Part of going fast is knowing when to slow down. I was standing with Transcend watching the finish line of St Anne that year and both of us noticed that Peaty was the only one that noticeably slowed down before he got to that jump. He won, and everyone who didnt touch their brakes seemed to crash. I think what happened to that jump was the run in to it got straightened out more and more every day of practice. They had to move a bunch of hay bails to swich over the course from mtnx to dh and back again and when it was switched over for the final day of racing and qualifying it had a straighter path into the jumps. This meant more speed and it seemed to send alot of people over the bars. Thats what was dangerous about that jump. There werent many if any crashes on that thing until the race run came around. Watching the last 15-20 guys in that race down there was scary.

Well last year's jump was worse then this year's. This years was dangerous when you hit it fast, as heikki mentioned we both grinned when peaty hit the brakes, he won it plain and simple with that move. Look what happened at worlds, wrecked in the last corner to lose. He knows where to draw the line.

Last year's waddell knockout jump WAS dangerous. The lip, the runup and worst of all, the massive G out at the bottom that bucked you almost no matter what. They fired the guy who built it, he was NOT back, it was dangerous and everyone complained. You cannot have a HUGE showtime booter like that right before a finish when you are blown and hauling ass.

This year's was sweet, speed check and you were through it. Hell I hit it in my quali run and had to speed check. At that point, skill didn't allow you to go fast, the straighwaway, a big ring and a nice incline did. You just had to have enough common sense to hit the brakes.

FYI I missed qualifying by about 20 seconds. MUCH more then i lost by braking, and much less then some guys lost by crashing on their noodles.

 

[Orvan]

Orven, that was kinda a rough comment there.

If you look at the bigger picture, instead of being politically correct, I'm hinting at a more positive outlook.



hmmm, where's my post? did I delete it accidentally (I was deleting a post in SoCal forum)?

 

[MikeD]

If you look at the bigger picture, instead of being politically correct, I'm hinting at a more positive outlook.



hmmm, where's my post? did I delete it accidentally (I was deleting a post in SoCal forum)?

Did you delete your own first (quite lengthy) post, or were you moderated? (2 days or so ago? I read it on my email notification...)

 

[heikkihall]

If you look at the bigger picture, instead of being politically correct, I'm hinting at a more positive outlook.



hmmm, where's my post? did I delete it accidentally (I was deleting a post in SoCal forum)?

Orven I think the kid is now a quadriplegic so there really isnt much to a positive outlook on it. Theres no riding in wheelchairs down a mountain when you cant control your arms. Its a terrible situation all around. I cant immagine being in the situation that he and his family are in right now.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

If you look at the bigger picture, instead of being politically correct, I'm hinting at a more positive outlook.



hmmm, where's my post? did I delete it accidentally (I was deleting a post in SoCal forum)?

I restored your comment for you here. It's not a matter of being politically correct, the poor guy got jacked up bad, which is the bottom line. I'm sure that's the last thing he'd want to be seen written about him, that's all.

The best thing to do about this BB DH closure is let it go for now, and let all the smoke clear from the lawsuits and the pissed off forestry committee for the illegal built trails. Give it a few years and wait to see how much revenue has been lost from the sport. At that point you should start the research process to get them to reinstate DH riding. I know I'd be very disappointed to see the something happen to N*.

It's time for everyone not involved in the closure to let it go for now. Bottom line, it is what it is and all this crying and whining wont change anything for now.

 

[ssabmud]

Zutroy hit the spot. Control. As a racer, you have to adapt to situations provided by the course. That's how you gain a bit of an advantage in knowing how to clean sections.

Sort of off topic...(can't shut my trap anymore)
I was the third racer or so behind Brian when he crashed on that tabled jump on that fateful (for him) Gotta Thunder 4 race run format. Knowing the jump and where the rebar was, without a doubt, rider error!!!!

I'm curious, where was the Rebar? Haven't heard anything about that yet.

 

[soliderbike]

Hey everybody

this post is about the ban on downhilling at Snow Summit. YES they have ban downhilling during the summer time, and YES that does mean there will be no NORBA nationals this year. Hopefully Snow Summit will realize this mistake when their usual summer income is less then normal because we all know that downhillers are like 90% of the summer income. This is all due to a lawsuit that Snow Summit settled(I think) This info is reliable as my contacts work in TBB and Snow Summit's adminstration. I will see if I can find out anymore on this and use what influence I have there to bring back Downhilling to Snow Summit.

 

[Ciaran]

Hey everybody

this post is about the ban on downhilling at Snow Summit. YES they have ban downhilling during the summer time, and YES that does mean there will be no NORBA nationals this year. Hopefully Snow Summit will realize this mistake when their usual summer income is less then normal because we all know that downhillers are like 90% of the summer income. This is all due to a lawsuit that Snow Summit settled(I think) This info is reliable as my contacts work in TBB and Snow Summit's adminstration. I will see if I can find out anymore on this and use what influence I have there to bring back Downhilling to Snow Summit.

Dude. Did you even bother to read the other 29 pages in this thread? We know that DH is dead at BB. And as for them bringing it back... ain't gonna happen.

 

[Toshi]

Dude. Did you even bother to read the other 29 pages in this thread? We know that DH is dead at BB. And as for them bringing it back... ain't gonna happen.

he did add the new bit of (unverified) info that the suit has been settled. i'm not sure how this changes my perception of BB, given that their no-DH policy may have come into being post-settlement.

 

[-BB-]

Dude. Did you even bother to read the other 29 pages in this thread? We know that DH is dead at BB. And as for them bringing it back... ain't gonna happen.

Pipe down there dude... This guy seems to be on OUR side.

Sorry Soliderbike.

 

[soliderbike]

hey everybody

soliderbike here. as to my last post, there was some info wrong on the lawsuit thing so just forget that post for now. later