[big-ted]

So, at a small local race this weekend one corner had been taped by wrapping the tape around a small rock, then simply placing said rock in the midle of the trail. The result being that the tape sat ~ 6" off the ground and was quite easily hoppable. I was one of two people to hop the tape in my race, for which I incurred a great deal of heckling (and damn right too. I'd have done the same to my buddy). It seems people were split on whether the line was fair game. At no point did I contact the tape. At no point did I touch the ground outside of the tape.

Obviously, at a more significant race one would hope the course would be taped better so as to prevent this, but basically I want bragging rights over my buddies, so I'm posing this to the monkey community...

 

[epic]

No bueno.

 

[IH8Rice]

did you cut the corner of the tape at all? if you did, i do believe that it is illegal to do that.
i dont think that it matters that you didnt touch the tape and or ground. you cut a corner.

 

[Ithnu]

There was an issue at Crankworx CO last year where someone cut a SD corner really bad saying it was fair game because it wasn't taped off. However it was clearly NOT the course. But the rider maintained he didn't cut any tape.

So I'd say no, you can't hop the rock. But you technically are not cutting the tape.

 

[spornographer]

like slalom or gated racing (where gates could be easy to hop), tires must remain inside the tape/gate/marker. if you hopped and went over or on the tape/gate/marker, you deserve DQ.

 

[yuroshek]

not sure if I understand you correctly but if you jump over the inside corner of the tape by hitting a jump and land back inside the tape I think that's fine.

the one fontana race was set up like that. you could jump a rock up over the tape so you didn't have to zig zag the corner. everyone did it pretty much.

 

[stoney]

Think of the tape as an invisible vertical wall. If you were outside of the tape - in the air or not - you cut the course.
The fact that your posting this likely means you are trying to justify it. You cut the tape.

 

[jonKranked]

There was an issue at Crankworx CO last year where someone cut a SD corner really bad saying it was fair game because it wasn't taped off. However it was clearly NOT the course. But the rider maintained he didn't cut any tape.

So I'd say no, you can't hop the rock. But you technically are not cutting the tape.

In UCI, weren't the rules changed to something along the lines of "within the tape, or 10' (maybe 15') of the intended course"?

 

[big-ted]

Hmm. So where does one draw the line? I mean, often one's handlebars will pass outside the tape whilst the tyres remain inside, which is definitely fair game. I only JUST cut the corner. Had I laid a tabletop in the air my tyres would have remained within the tape.

 

[spornographer]

Hmm. So where does one draw the line? I mean, often one's handlebars will pass outside the tape whilst the tyres remain inside, which is definitely fair game. I only JUST cut the corner. Had I laid a tabletop in the air my tyres would have remained within the tape.

only tires matter. in gated racing (bikes or skis), the body can go outside or through the gate/marker, but the tires must remain inside. if you go OVER or ON, you're not inside.

 

[IH8Rice]

Think of the tape as an invisible vertical wall. If you were outside of the tape - in the air or not - you cut the course.
The fact that your posting this likely means you are trying to justify it. You cut the tape.

DQ

 

[big-ted]

Ithnu, yeah, it was mentioned to me that the entire course need not necessarily be taped to be defined. I don't think that's the issue here though. Yuroshrek, that's exctly what happened. Hopping the rock meant I could straightline one section that otherwise required a small amount of turning. Sounds like, by Fontana rules I can walk away with a clean conscience.

Joker, by your definition, I need my wrists slapped. I stress though that this was a small local race and is all in the name of fun. If I'm in the right I just want to be able to throw the rule book at my buddies. I actually made a small mistake further up the course so pretty much decided to hang it out and go for it for the rest of my run. I'm not losing any sleep over this!

 

[Ithnu]

In UCI, weren't the rules changed to something along the lines of "within the tape, or 10' (maybe 15') of the intended course"?

I don't remember exactly. I thought it said something about the obvious course if tape isn't present. Apparently this rider cut a big enough corner in SD to pass 4 people.

 

[jonKranked]

I don't remember exactly. I thought it said something about the obvious course if tape isn't present. Apparently this rider cut a big enough corner in SD to pass 4 people.

Yea, I was talking to Geoff Ulmer about it a few weeks ago in regards to this.

 

[stoney]

If there was an obvious course marking forcing a corner and you ignored the course marking (blatantly jumping it), you cut course. There is no other argument to it.
While we have all seen courses where you get right up to the edge of the tape, most courses are setup to clearly demarcate the boundaries. If you jumped the tape to skip a corner (which you are admitting to), you cut course.

 

[IH8Rice]

Officially Official:

Big-Ted is a course cutter




irate2:

 

[jonKranked]

Officially Official:

Big-Ted is a course cutter




irate2:

I think somebody has a new custom title

 

[Jeremy R]

Where is that awesome footage of Rennie jumping over that big bush in one of the Austrailia races a few years back. He cut out an entire switchback.
I can't remember if it was taped or not, but it was sick line for sure.

 

[thom9719]

He doesn't care what anyone THINKS, he wants to know what the UCI rule actually says.

I thought there was something about this and a world cup a few years ago? I thought their ruling was as long as you don't touch the ground outside the tape, you are fine( but I could be wrong)

Kyle,

 

[IH8Rice]

He doesn't care what anyone THINKS, he wants to know what the UCI rule actually says.

Kyle,

did i read the wrong OP then? cause i dont remember him saying anything about UCI rules.

 

[stoney]

Where is that awesome footage of Rennie jumping over that big bush in one of the Austrailia races a few years back. He cut out an entire switchback.
I can't remember if it was taped or not, but it was sick line for sure.

There was no tape there. I remember that shot. Apparently he and a few of the other WC guys were straight lining that switchback, but because there was no tape...

 

[stoney]

He doesn't care what anyone THINKS, he wants to know what the UCI rule actually says.

I thought there was something about this and a world cup a few years ago? I thought their ruling was as long as you don't touch the ground outside the tape, you are fine( but I could be wrong)

Kyle,

UCI rules mean nothing at local races. Norba rules generally apply for local events. If it is not a Norba race, it is the spirit of the rule. If a course is marked, it's marked for a reason. Jumping tape is cutting course. He cheated, there is no argument. He intentionally cut the course.

 

[MinorThreat]

FWIW, the UCI rulebook states:

4.1.035 If a rider exits the course for any reason, he/she must return to the course at the same point from which he/she exited.
(text modified on 25.09.07).
and

4.2.024 . . . The tape should be positioned on the ski gates/piping at a height which
does not interfere with television shots (usually at 50 cm from the ground).

This tells me that tape height (besides the purely practical aspect) was set for visibility reasons and that it could actually be any height; so 'jumping' the tape is still breaking the plane of the course boundaries.

And from the USA Cycling rulebook:

6B7. Short-cutting and/or cutting trail switchbacks or course is not permitted and may result in disqualification. A rider is required to stay on the designated trail that is marked and or specified as the race course. It is the rider's responsibility to know the designated race course. Lack of tape or barriers on the course, or misplaced signs will not constitute an excuse for cutting the course.

 

[jonKranked]

How would rule 6B7 apply if the shortcut line on the switch back is within the taped boundary?

 

[ChrisKring]

I would say if your tires didn't hit the ground outside of the tape then you did not cut the course. Slalom is different although I think that the newer style low gates promote greyness. The problem with saying that if the tire crosses the tape that you are off course is that then there is too much room for interpetation. Does that mean that the tire can not lean over the tape.

At the end of the day, it's a poorly marked course. A large part of the skill of DH is picking lines so I do not agree with any agrument about staying on the intended line. That is an argument often made by the lazy course builder.

I would have told the promoter to fix it since it's too easy to cut and impossible to enforce. When they didn't do anything about it, I would cut it in practice with as many people standing around to make a point.

The line at Massanutten in the upper rock garden is an example of a line that was never intended to be a line. They didn't tape it so myself and a few others took that line at the 2006 race. I rode behind spectators. It wasn't taped though.

At Pkill back in 2004 or so I watched a guy go 50 foot off the course to straightline a section. It wasn't taped good enough.

You guys need to go to a MX Harescramble to witness some creative interpetations on where the course is.

 

[jonKranked]

I would say if your tires didn't hit the ground outside of the tape then you did not cut the course. Slalom is different although I think that the newer style low gates promote greyness. The problem with saying that if the tire crosses the tape that you are off course is that then there is too much room for interpetation. Does that mean that the tire can not lean over the tape.

At the end of the day, it's a poorly marked course. A large part of the skill of DH is picking lines so I do not agree with any agrument about staying on the intended line. That is an argument often made by the lazy course builder.

I would have told the promoter to fix it since it's too easy to cut and impossible to enforce. When they didn't do anything about it, I would cut it in practice with as many people standing around to make a point.

The line at Massanutten in the upper rock garden is an example of a line that was never intended to be a line. They didn't tape it so myself and a few others took that line at the 2006 race. I rode behind spectators. It wasn't taped though.

At Pkill back in 2004 or so I watched a guy go 50 foot off the course to straightline a section. It wasn't taped good enough.

You guys need to go to a MX Harescramble to witness some creative interpetations on where the course is.

The UCI does not agree with you.

 

[MinorThreat]

How would rule 6B7 apply if the shortcut line on the switch back is within the taped boundary?

I would say that it means that any line within the taped boundaries is fair game. A rider that finds a new line within the boundaries of the tape has done nothing wrong.

All of the discussion points to a simple rule in marking courses: If you don't want it to be ridden, you better tape it off. Good, unambiguous marking is paramount to running a good race.

 

[Transcend]

There was an issue at Crankworx CO last year where someone cut a SD corner really bad saying it was fair game because it wasn't taped off. However it was clearly NOT the course. But the rider maintained he didn't cut any tape.

The rider would have been correct. Inside the tape is inside the tape. Tires outside the tape is no good. tires anywhere inside the tap = good to go.

 

[spornographer]

The rider would have been correct. Inside the tape is inside the tape. Tires outside the tape is no good. tires anywhere inside the tap = good to go.

rules are rules, and i agree that it is the organizer's responsibility to tape the course thoroughly, BUT...

isn't there some sort of honor/sportsmanship in knowing that the outside taped boundary in the crankworx CO case (and yes, i know the situation being discussed) indicates that the course is the marked/existing trail, not some bushwacking, off-trail excursion to cut a switchback and earn a couple more dollars? all the riders knew this and clearly the offender does too.

same with the original rock jumper post. you know the intention of the course, you should race within it, ESPECIALLY if it's just a "local race." you know they lack resources, so respect the track definitions even more.

 

[CRoss]

I always looked at tape the why I learned to view course marking riding trials. If your tire was in contact with the ground inside the tape any other part of the bike could lean over outside the tape as long as it did not contact the ground. If your tire is in the air your axle is not allowed to pass over the vertical plane of the tape.

What you did was straight up cut the course. You can justify it anyway you want to help you sleep at night but there is no arguing you cut the course.

 

[ska todd]

Part of me says the rider is being resourceful cutting the course. Hell, we've all seen it done at one time or another. Ninja lines are ninja lines but they should be like the first rule of "Fight Club". But the other part of me says, dude it's a local race and not a WC. If you have to hop tape to win a singleply Kenda tire is it really worth the life time of shame and agony you will feel over CHEATING?!

Ultimately it should fall on a promoter to tape something off if they do not intend for it to be in bounds. However, lets put this into a degree of context, practicality, and sportsmanship. Would you rather have your local promoter taping some corner you want to cut or making the timing more accurate or a berm sweeter or explaining his race to a parent who is calling to bring junior out to their first race? Time = money.

To relate a story from BITD. Killington c. 2002. There was a rock garden you could straightline and skip two turns and a wet rock slab if you bushwacked thru ferns and over a log. It wasn't until the end of Saturday practice that Jody Stoddard and a couple guys spotted it and started running it. The promoter came up and taped it off later that night and it was closed for practice and the race the next morning. That is kosher. That is proper management. Leaving a line open and then taping it without giving anyone practice on it ain't kosher IMHO.

-ska todd

 

[CRoss]

I think it is the MSC that says anything inside the tape is fair game if there is tape on both sides. If the course is only taped on one or no sides the course is the worn path. So cutting a switchback with only tape on one side is cutting the course since you leave the worn path.

 

[altix]

iv seen this so many time in american racing. since i was 15 iv seen people cutting corners and LARGE portions of the track. Brain Head, UT (06 and 08) seems to be the biggest offenders. I agree it all starts with the course designers to make sure the track is solid and taped properly, But when does the racers responsibility come into play? I'd like to see more trust between riders and the course and realize just because the line is there and may shave 5 seconds off your time, doesnt mean its the right thing to do.

 

[epic]

IMHO if the line is there and it's not taped off, it is the right thing to do.

 

[IH8Rice]

IMO people who move the tape are just as bad, if not worse

 

[Ithnu]

Do you guys remember the movie Rad? I was watching it a year ago with some friends and there's a part where the local hero kid cuts the tape and ducks through the trees to pass people.

What kind of example was the 80s setting for racing professionalism?

try this...

I found it, go to about 4 minutes. He actually goes off the course and then jumps the tape to get back to the finish line. What a jerk.

 

[IH8Rice]

Do you guys remember the movie Rad? I was watching it a year ago with some friends and there's a part where the local hero kid cuts the tape and ducks through the trees to pass people.

What kind of example wast he 80s setting for racing professionalism?

sounds like theyre all following Rosie Ruiz

 

[demo 9]

Personally if its small and stupid i dont see a huge deal. (if u dont touch outside) although id love to see opinions on this, There are switchback berms (and asuming tape on both sides) what do u guys think.

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[stoney]

Try this:

And for this scenario, during a race weekend, if the officials had not already taped that off, it should be taped off immediately if it was not intended as a line on the course.

 

[dw]

To relate a story from BITD. Killington c. 2002. There was a rock garden you could straightline and skip two turns and a wet rock slab if you bushwacked thru ferns and over a log. It wasn't until the end of Saturday practice that Jody Stoddard and a couple guys spotted it and started running it. The promoter came up and taped it off later that night and it was closed for practice and the race the next morning. That is kosher. That is proper management. Leaving a line open and then taping it without giving anyone practice on it ain't kosher IMHO.

-ska todd

I totally remember that line, that was awesome. I owe that course a good beating someday..