[jimmydean]

I started this thread here because I didn't think the lounge was the right place.

I was raised Catholic and confirmed, but soon after (when I started thinking for myself) realized a lot of what the church did and stood for didn't fit with me. Then there was the whole Father Ollie debacle (google if you don't know) and since I knew him well (not as well as others, thank god) I felt a lot of anger and turned away.

So my daughter started going with a friend to Awanas and has a lot of fun there. She is only 9 but is starting to come into her own with spirituality and faith and all that goodness. I support her going to Awanas and think it's cool to have an outlet, but I don't much care for the whole sin/hell crap they feed her.

So do you force your kids to go to church the way my folks did?

 

[4xBoy]

I went but never got brain washed. I would have a difficult time deciding if my kids should go, probably part of the reason I never had any.

 

[BadDNA]

No kids myself but when we have them I think that they should be allowed to seek their own best fit for spirituality if they choose. I was raised in an Episcopal church-going family but once I was old enough to make an informed decision for myself I was no longer required by my parents to go. I plan on doing the same with my children, not that my wife and I go to church, but like you, if they're curious and want to explore I will encourage them.

 

[jonKranked]

No kids myself but when we have them I think that they should be allowed to seek their own best fit for spirituality if they choose. I was raised in an Episcopal church-going family but once I was old enough to make an informed decision for myself I was no longer required by my parents to go. I plan on doing the same with my children, not that my wife and I go to church, but like you, if they're curious and want to explore I will encourage them.

What will you do when they join scientology?

 

[narlus]

when i was young, i went to church a lot. usually twice on sundays (morn and evening), and there was some sort of youth program too.

i gave up on organized religion about the time i got to college, and never looked back. i think that you can build strong moral codes of living w/o a church, and i hope to do the same w/ my kids.

 

[BadDNA]

What will you do when they join scientology?

I thought we were talking about religion, not nutjob cults.

 

[jimmydean]

My daughter had a friend at school whose parents used to encourage her to go with them on Sunday. We became casual friends with the parents and they were OK people. But it got weird when their daughter who was 2 years younger than ours started asking her why WE didn't go to church.

They used to babysit for us from time to time and one day I went to pick up my kid and started getting asked questions by their daughter about why I don't believe in God. So I sat down with the parents and let them know where I stood spiritually and asked them kindly not to force their beliefs on MY child.

I explained to the daughter that I didn't feel the need to go somewhere and be told how or when to talk to "god" since I had a mind of my very own. The parents didn't much like that answer and I wasn't invited to the Christmas party that year.

 

[jonKranked]

I thought we were talking about religion, not nutjob cults.

smartass remark: there's a difference?

real response: touche.

 

[jimmydean]

when i was young, i went to church a lot. usually twice on sundays (morn and evening), and there was some sort of youth program too.

i gave up on organized religion about the time i got to college, and never looked back. i think that you can build strong moral codes of living w/o a church, and i hope to do the same w/ my kids.

And this is the approach we have taken so far and it's worked pretty well. Maddie enjoys the interaction of the other kids and that's cool. But I'm not cool with some of what she is being taught.

I don't want to tell her she CAN'T go, but I still haven't figured out how to tell her she can't be a Baptist and go to Notre Dame, either.

 

[jimmydean]

smartass remark: there's a difference?

Tom Cruise doesn't have a beard.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I grew up Presbyterian, then in my mid 20's "found Jesus" and went to several Baptist churches for about a decade.

With out 3 kids we're pretty much letting them find their own path with some guidance of course. Our oldest (she's 15) has never been baptised or confirmed (we attend a Methodist church) but considers herself a devoted follower of Jesus, and we're cool with that. Our middle (she's 12) wanted to get confirmed and learn all the "in's and out's" of "big church" (she actually prefers the traditional worship service to the contemporary service)..........and we're cool with that too. Our youngest (he's 5)........well who know's what he'll do.............and we're cool with that too.

 

[jonKranked]

Tom Cruise doesn't have a beard.

or a clue

 

[BadDNA]

smartass remark: there's a difference?

real response: touche.

Reply to smartass remark: As I see it there's a big difference. Most major western religions, at their core, are a set of guidelines about how one should live a "good" and "moral" life. These guidelines are wrapped up in myth or stories to provide example. If you deconstruct the myth and see the lessons for what they are, you end up with a lot of the same themes throughout many faiths. I think a lot of these themes are seen in other religions as well from polytheistic earth-based religions to eastern theologies. The nutjobs are after your money, your mind and all the power they can grab.

 

[jonKranked]

If you deconstruct the myth and see the lessons for what they are, you end up with a lot of the same themes throughout many faiths.

Bingo. I wholeheartedly agree with this.

And this is one of the reasons I think organized religion is a sham. They're all teaching fundamentally the same thing, yet they think their flavor is the right one, and everyone else is going to hell, or is a sinner, or wrong, etc. It perpetuates the "us vs them" mentality (which can lead to violent conflict as history has taught us) by differentiating people into groups.


Am I saying that organized religions should merge into one mega religion? No. Instead of focusing on the differences, embrace the similarities.

 

[Silver]

Reply to smartass remark: As I see it there's a big difference. Most major western religions, at their core, are a set of guidelines about how one should live a "good" and "moral" life. These guidelines are wrapped up in myth or stories to provide example. If you deconstruct the myth and see the lessons for what they are, you end up with a lot of the same themes throughout many faiths. I think a lot of these themes are seen in other religions as well from polytheistic earth-based religions to eastern theologies. The nutjobs are after your money, your mind and all the power they can grab.

So does Scientology, actually. Sure, you might think their guidelines are stupid and irrational (and I'd agree with you) but you can't deny that there are true believers who probably are better off with their security blanket.

Explain to me how worshipping a zombie whose Dad tells you that you're a filthy damned wretch who would murder and rape at the drop of a hat if you didn't have him looking over your shoulder with the promise of eternally torturing you for disobeying him is conducive to living a "good" and "moral" life.

In my experience, most Christians give no thought to morals or ethics at all. They don't even follow what's in their book, hence the noted lack of Christians of all flavors living according to the precepts of Jesus.

They really do love them the parts about no faggotry though...

 

[Andyman_1970]

And this is one of the reasons I think organized religion is a sham. They're all teaching fundamentally the same thing, yet they think their flavor is the right one, and everyone else is going to hell, or is a sinner, or wrong, etc. It perpetuates the "us vs them" mentality (which can lead to violent conflict as history has taught us) by differentiating people into groups.

With me and respect to a "flavor" of 1st century Judaism and 1st century "Christianity" (understanding it wasn't known as that then), I would disagree. However both had and continue to have those tendencies ($, power, etc). The only places where Jesus really gets to the "us vs. them" deal is those who are corrupt and rich and in power vs. the "have nots".

 

[Andyman_1970]

They really do love them the parts about no faggotry though...

We do like to get some mileage out of that..........which escapes me as to the why there is so much emphasis..........

 

[jonKranked]

With me and respect to a "flavor" of 1st century Judaism and 1st century "Christianity" (understanding it wasn't known as that then), I would disagree. However both had and continue to have those tendencies ($, power, etc). The only places where Jesus really gets to the "us vs. them" deal is those who are corrupt and rich and in power vs. the "have nots".

I get your point, but I was speaking in regards to modern religion.

And just to clarify, my statement isn't meant as a blanket statement against all people who identify themselves as any certain religion. I certainly have met plenty of people who can sift through the BS and get the real message.

 

[jimmydean]

I certainly have met plenty of people who can sift through the BS and get the real message.

My folks are an interesting pair in that respect. They are mega Catholic, if there is such a thing. Yet they had a boarder stay in their house for many years who was gay. They didn't preach to him about it, he was a grown man who made his own choices in life. They didn't agree with his lifestyle, but they also didn't chose to condemn him for it, either.

While many of my core beliefs are rooted in Catholicism, I don't follow it to the letter. I try to be a good person and teach my children to do the same. But I'm with Silver on the security blanket, or worse yet the crutch people use religion for.

 

[ohio]

I'd force them to go to church in the hopes they develop the same seething hatred for religion I have.

 

[jonKranked]

My folks are an interesting pair in that respect. They are mega Catholic, if there is such a thing. Yet they had a boarder stay in their house for many years who was gay. They didn't preach to him about it, he was a grown man who made his own choices in life. They didn't agree with his lifestyle, but they also didn't chose to condemn him for it, either.

That was one of the things that drove me away from church/organized religion. For as much as they preach and promote tolerance and acceptance, they sure seem to forget it quickly when the queers show up.

One of the other things was how the seem to treat the Bible like a buffet.

While many of my core beliefs are rooted in Catholicism, I don't follow it to the letter. I try to be a good person and teach my children to do the same. But I'm with Silver on the security blanket, or worse yet the crutch people use religion for.

Same here (raised catholic, even confirmed). But these core beliefs I've noticed tend to be central to most religions.

 

[Dartman]

We took our daughter to baptist church when she was little. We also raised her to have a mind of her own and question everything. She no longer attends church as do I. After 9/11 and other religious whack jobs like Bush and Robinson I did some "soul" searching and I came to my senses...


Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.

 

[stevew]

i found i could get out of going to church if i had a job....so i found a job instead of jesus.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

No kids... Mom was a Catholic, apostate after age 13, dad was I don't know what - agnostic, I think. I got to look for myself, went to some Christian services and Sunday schools as a kid, decided it was bullsh1t, went through an atheist phase, settled as a comfortable agnostic.

Let them figure it out for themselves. Keep an eye out and guard reasonably against "religious" predators.

 

[Silver]

We do like to get some mileage out of that..........which escapes me as to the why there is so much emphasis..........

Easy, it's one of two things:

1-You're a Christian who isn't gay, and because you don't have homosexual desires, it's a very easy "sin" for you to avoid and it feeds your sense of moral superiority. This is why there is much less emphasis on adultery than there is homosexuality, for example.

2-Much less likely, you're a Christian who is homosexual, and you think that violently persecuting yourself and others is a great way to make yourself believe that you're not really gay.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Easy, it's one of two things:

1-You're a Christian who isn't gay, and because you don't have homosexual desires, it's a very easy "sin" for you to avoid and it feeds your sense of moral superiority. This is why there is much less emphasis on adultery than there is homosexuality, for example.

2-Much less likely, you're a Christian who is homosexual, and you think that violently persecuting yourself and others is a great way to make yourself believe that you're not really gay.

What you seem to be ignoring here is that people exist on a gray scale someplace between gay and straight. It's never been a binary state.

 

[Silver]

What you seem to be ignoring here is that people exist on a gray scale someplace between gay and straight. It's never been a binary state.

From the POV of a conservative Christian, it sure is...anyone who isn't a 1 is a 2 by default.

 

[jimmydean]

2-Much less likely, you're a Christian who is homosexual, and you think that violently persecuting yourself and others is a great way to make yourself believe that you're not really gay.

Or until you are caught in the airport bathroom, or with your meth dealing male hooker.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Meh. No kids, but you can get your "good life lessons" from watching GI Joe.

It's impossible for someone to know the truth about creation of time / the universe, or what happens when you die.

Why would I subject my child to some lunatic who claims to understand the unknowable?

 

[Andyman_1970]

That was one of the things that drove me away from church/organized religion. For as much as they preach and promote tolerance and acceptance, they sure seem to forget it quickly when the queers show up.

One of the other things was how the seem to treat the Bible like a buffet.

These two and a few other "incidents" are what ultimately drove me out of any sort of Baptist / Evangelical (conservative leaning) church.

 

[Andyman_1970]

It's impossible for someone to know the truth about creation of time / the universe, or what happens when you die.

I would absolutely agree, and I can't for the life of me figure out why the religous system I extracated myself from put such an emphasis on it when after some research Jesus: contextually didn't put much emphasis at all on the two subjects and neither did 1st century Judaism (the "system" that Jesus operated within).

My apologies for the long run on sentence.......I haven't had my first Mtn. Dew yet.........

 

[scrider]

Tom Cruise doesn't have a beard.

Katie Holmes???

 

[jonKranked]

I would absolutely agree, and I can't for the life of me figure out why the religous system I extracated myself from put such an emphasis on it when after some research Jesus: contextually didn't put much emphasis at all on the two subjects and neither did 1st century Judaism (the "system" that Jesus operated within).

My apologies for the long run on sentence.......I haven't had my first Mtn. Dew yet.........

One thing I've found interesting is how other cultures treat the after life. Particularly eastern cultures - Chinese, Buddhist, and Hindu. They don't believe in the concept of "heaven" as many do, however they still feel impelled to lead good, moral lives.

 

[BadDNA]

One thing I've found interesting is how other cultures treat the after life. Particularly eastern cultures - Chinese, Buddhist, and Hindu. They don't believe in the concept of "heaven" as many do, however they still feel impelled to lead good, moral lives.

That probably comes from their belief in karma and other similar concepts where the good or evil done by an individual in the course of their life will bring reward or punishment. The exact mechanism behind this varies from faith to faith but the concept is there.

 

[Da Peach]

Katie Holmes???

Heheh

 

[kidwoo]

Katie Holmes???

BooYah!!!!!!!!!

 

[Dartman]

Why does one need the myth of (any) religion to live a good moral life?

 

[BadDNA]

Why does one need the myth of (any) religion to live a good moral life?

Because centuries ago (even today) the people in power felt or knew that when left on their own to make choices of a moral nature most people would/will take the easy way out which may not always be the good/moral thing to do.

 

[Silver]

One thing I've found interesting is how other cultures treat the after life. Particularly eastern cultures - Chinese, Buddhist, and Hindu. They don't believe in the concept of "heaven" as many do, however they still feel impelled to lead good, moral lives.

The rape of Nanking people must have all been Shinto...

 

[jonKranked]

Why does one need the myth of (any) religion to live a good moral life?

Don't forget, there ARE people down here: