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R- 9 compared to Sunday

big-ted

big-ted

Danced with A, attacked by C, fired by D.
Sep 27, 2005
1,400
47
Vancouver, BC
Guys, let bballe express his opinion. It's an opinion. He's entitled to it, and in no way are opinions bounded by physical possibilities.

FWIW, when I demo'd a Sunday I thought it pedalled well, but lacked suppleness over roots etc. Granted, this could be setup, but the build quality was very poor. Flame away....
 
ElTORO

ElTORO

Monkey
Jun 27, 2006
369
0
With all the other Tards!!
jvnixon said:
What's the point of posting that first snipet, and not finishing the rest? Why would you post on a board where you can't say what you think if you believe what you're saying?

If you believe in your opinions, and they're not contrary to facts maybe you'll help someone make an educated decision.
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Yah I want to hear what you have to say to. No Flamming!! I hear so much GRAND stuff about the Sunday. I want to here the negatives to. Don't mind DW he should be able to take it.
 
bballe336

bballe336

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2005
1,757
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jvnixon said:
What's the point of posting that first snipet, and not finishing the rest? Why would you post on a board where you can't say what you think if you believe what you're saying?

If you believe in your opinions, and they're not contrary to facts maybe you'll help someone make an educated decision.
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I really can't say what I want to. If I do I would not be at all surprised if this thread turned into a 20 page backlash. If you like the sunday that's awesome. I'm not fond of it and you're gonna need to ride the bike to make up your own mind.
 
ElTORO

ElTORO

Monkey
Jun 27, 2006
369
0
With all the other Tards!!
bballe336 said:
I really can't say what I want to. If I do I would not be at all surprised if this thread turned into a 20 page backlash. If you like the sunday that's awesome. I'm not fond of it and you're gonna need to ride the bike to make up your own mind.
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I know what you mean. This place seems like a DW/IH fan club sometimes.:monkey:
 
B

Banshee Rider

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2003
1,452
10
Man, these sunday threads turn as vicious as avy threads don't they? :rofl:

I'm riding a short R9 right now and am really enjoying it. I always felt comfortable on the V10 I was riding before, so the similar geometry on the short R9 felt spot on when switching bikes. It feels as supple and stable as my V10 did, but with alittle extra "kick in its step" in short acceleration bursts. I instantly noticed a pretty significant difference in cornering and quick direction changes as well. I'm pretty stoked on how it rides. Very simple bike, uses almost all the same size hardware and bearings. Machine work and welds are very impressive. And since I do race in new england, it's nice to know I'll have the man who welds the bike there to support me at most races, or at the very least, have a bunch of fellow riders on the same bike that I can get parts from. I'm really looking forward to pushing this bike hard next season, as it has an agressive feel opposed to a finess feel.

Most of the people who have sundays seem to like them. I personally have never ridden one long enough to form an opinion. I'm sure its one of those bikes you need sufficent time on to understand how it rides, so I wont bother tackling that animal after a parking lot test :rofl:

 
kidwoo

kidwoo

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Aug 25, 2003
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bballe336 said:
I really can't say what I want to. If I do I would not be at all surprised if this thread turned into a 20 page backlash. If you like the sunday that's awesome. I'm not fond of it and you're gonna need to ride the bike to make up your own mind.
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Meh......go for it.


Iron horse is a company who needs to sell bikes to consumers to exist. You're a potential consumer with on opinion. Spout it. You may be suprised at the responses.

I mentioned I'd seen a bunch of broken SGS swingarms and got gang raped by virtually the entire cheerleading squad (boy that was a freudian expression if there ever was one). And that was even before the Sunday existed. Anyway....... doesn't change anything and anyone who geniunely hates you for an opinion over something as trivial as a bicycle you may or may not like isn't worth knowing anyway. I argue about this stuff with my best riding friends all the time.
 
D

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
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ElTORO said:
I know what you mean. This place seems like a DW/IH fan club sometimes.:monkey:
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It does sometimes, doesn't it. Surprises me too. I think that a lot of people just appreciate my honesty. Since this site started in 2001 I have been a member on this board (and for a couple years before on MTBR) giving real advice on different bikes and primarily suspension systems. I try not to let people be fooled by false marketing, which seems to be rampant and willful in the bike industry. I try to help people see things through an objective eye, to see the whole picture, and to understand the physics behind these fun little machines that we call bikes. I try to share the physics behind bikes as opposed to my interpretations of my neighbor's bike. Bikes are tough to buy. They are expensive, and have poor resale value. Misinformation can make it even tougher, and some times discourage riders from participating further in this great sport.

For example, a hypothetial and extremely common situation: one guy may say about X suspension bike that the suspension is not compliant. You see, he rode his buddies bike in the parking lot of the local bike shop, and it didn't jive with him. What you don't hear is that his buddy just took the bike out of the box, swapped the spring out for his 250 lb weight and didnt touch or even know what to do with the shock settings. Our 160 lb friend rides the bike and has a problem. Big surpize!!! The bike is oversprong by 100 lbs and the damper was never set up for him, let alone the cockpit!

How many guys do you know that you would change every setting on your bike for to take a test ride? Stem, bars, sweep, gearing, spring rates, damper settings, tires and pressures, everything. A 2 hour job for an experienced mechanic. Probably not many. The problem is that without doing these things, you can't truly feel or understand how a full suspension bike will feel for YOU. The internet is a double edged sword.

The best possibility for you to really learn about which bike is right for you is to go and ride the bikes. Set them up for YOU. Ride them and see what you like. Any bike can go fast with the right rider as pilot. Spend less time thinking about what frame you are on and more time doing crunches, riding the balance board, XC bike, and dirtjumping. These are the things that will make you a winner.

Good luck with your decision. I will see you on the trails.

Dave
 
D

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
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kidwoo said:
You mean FSR suspension doesn't completely cancel out braking and pedaling forces because of the vertical axle path?:shocked:
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Vertical axle paths are something else indeed! I don't know which is better, vertical axle paths or instant center pivots. Both so sweet. :twitch:
 
kidwoo

kidwoo

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Aug 25, 2003
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dw said:
Vertical axle paths are something else indeed! I don't know which is better, vertical axle paths or instant center pivots. Both so sweet. :twitch:
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I'm designing a new temporary, instantaneous, theoretical spiraling pivot that exists in the 9th dimension. It's going to be so efficient it rolls by itself whenever it gets hit by dark matter.

There's a buddy of mine that works for specialized with whom I was riding at downieville not too long ago. I've always like the bikes because their bottom brackets drag on the ground but in talking to him about the new enduros coming out, I had to gently place my hand on his shoulder and say "please.....just stop" when he started talking about the suspension.
 
sanjuro

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
dw said:
It does sometimes, doesn't it. Surprises me too. I think that a lot of people just appreciate my honesty. Since this site started in 2001 I have been a member on this board (and for a couple years before on MTBR) giving real advice on different bikes and primarily suspension systems. I try not to let people be fooled by false marketing, which seems to be rampant and willful in the bike industry. I try to help people see things through an objective eye, to see the whole picture, and to understand the physics behind these fun little machines that we call bikes. I try to share the physics behind bikes as opposed to my interpretations of my neighbor's bike. Bikes are tough to buy. They are expensive, and have poor resale value. Misinformation can make it even tougher, and some times discourage riders from participating further in this great sport.
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People take for granted that an actual bike designer posts his opinion on an internet board. And yeah, that earns him lots of fans here.

Dave Weagle is not some internet personality who pontificates about bike design. He has the education, did the calculations, got the patents, convinced a major bike company to use his designs, and the proof is 2 World Champions.

Even in my own shop, the only thing my industry contacts want to hear is how many bikes I am going to order. I advised one custom framebuilder that a 72.5 head tube angle is too steep for a customer's trail bike, and now he has to suffer for their mistake.
 
S

skinny mike

Turbo Monkey
Jan 24, 2005
6,415
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dw said:
Vertical axle paths are something else indeed! I don't know which is better, vertical axle paths or instant center pivots. Both so sweet. :twitch:
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i was thinking the other day, and isn't a vertical axle path physically impossible? i was just thinking about it in my head, but it doesn't make sense how it could work.
 
offtheedge

offtheedge

Monkey
Aug 26, 2005
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LB
really, how many on this board have ever hated the bike they purchased? I doubt very many. Aside from the MTBer who buys the same model year after year and puts the exact same component spec on it no frame/suspension design can be judged by a first ride or (king of the idiotic criteria) a parking lot test. Lets face it, all bikes are better. Any company that has the slightest interest in surviving has and will make changes as technologies accomodate realworld feedback, but the bottom line is getting use to YOUR bike is the only way to judge what works for you. Buy what you like or you can afford and dial it in.
 
F

FastTimes

Monkey
Jul 2, 2002
155
1
Toronto
kidwoo said:
I'm designing a new temporary, instantaneous, theoretical spiraling pivot that exists in the 9th dimension. It's going to be so efficient it rolls by itself whenever it gets hit by dark matter.
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I just laughed out loud. That was pure gold! I agree with you and have to say I am happy with many of the designs out there these days, new and old. I have an FSR DH bike, an NRS XC bike, 2 VPP bikes and a Sunday(DW). All have their own little pluses and minuses. It really, honestly comes down to preference and application. People need to offer up better points than it does or doesn't suck.

As to the point. I love my Sunday. I get to ride pretty much every bike out there and this one is special. Is has its quirks like any other but the overall feel and ride quality is truly unique and a joy to ride. Bike suspension is a difficult thing to dial in 100% at both ends of the spectrum, pedaling and bump absorption. There always has to be a compromise IMO.

Pce,
 
T

thaflyinfatman

Turbo Monkey
Jul 20, 2002
1,577
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Victoria
dw said:
There is NO possibility that you have ridden a dw-link bike with any sort of correct setup for you. Zero. You can say a lot of things about a lot of bikes, but your two comments above about dw-link are physical impossibilities.

I respect your personal opinion.

The laws of physics do not allow your statements to be true, end of discussion.
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Between axle path relative to bump force direction (which on the Sunday is not particularly rearwards, certainly not unusually so compared to mid-pivot bikes) and the very linear shock rate - the only thing I can think of that should allow the Sunday to absorb bumps better than other bikes is the very low amount of compression damping. What is the common range of compression damping forces on a normal shock (obviously starting at zero, or close to if we're accounting for propedal/spv and ranging up to the maximum shaft speeds shocks see), and what is the typical range on a DW-link tuned shock? Honestly I can't imagine that alone is THAT big a factor (a lot of shocks seem to have SFA compression damping anyway, DHXs and Rocos especially), but I am open to being proven wrong.
 
rigidhack

rigidhack

Turbo Monkey
Aug 16, 2004
1,206
1
In a Van(couver) down by the river
offtheedge said:
really, how many on this board have ever hated the bike they purchased? I doubt very many. Aside from the MTBer who buys the same model year after year and puts the exact same component spec on it no frame/suspension design can be judged by a first ride or (king of the idiotic criteria) a parking lot test. Lets face it, all bikes are better. Any company that has the slightest interest in surviving has and will make changes as technologies accomodate realworld feedback, but the bottom line is getting use to YOUR bike is the only way to judge what works for you. Buy what you like or you can afford and dial it in.
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At the risk of adding more fuel to this fire, what you say is true, BUT people have to go on something in order to decide which bike is going to be theirs in the first place. Hence the parking lot test, right? Any collection of opinions found on forums like this is going to include a range of stuff from sheer lunacy to extremely detailed and informed treatises on the physics of the matter. What you should take out of it is an overall feel for what people think about a given bike /product whatever.

What I get so far is that both the Sunday and the R9 are excelent choices that have earned passionate support from the people who ride them (slight edge to the Sinister fans here).
 
D

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
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thaflyinfatman said:
Between axle path relative to bump force direction (which on the Sunday is not particularly rearwards, certainly not unusually so compared to mid-pivot bikes) and the very linear shock rate - the only thing I can think of that should allow the Sunday to absorb bumps better than other bikes is the very low amount of compression damping. What is the common range of compression damping forces on a normal shock (obviously starting at zero, or close to if we're accounting for propedal/spv and ranging up to the maximum shaft speeds shocks see), and what is the typical range on a DW-link tuned shock? Honestly I can't imagine that alone is THAT big a factor (a lot of shocks seem to have SFA compression damping anyway, DHXs and Rocos especially), but I am open to being proven wrong.
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The Sunday has a rearward axle path through mid travel. The big gain as you alluded to is the lessening of compression damping that the dw-link allows. This is a HUGE advantage. Try a shock from another non dw-link bike on the Sunday (or the 5th elements that came with the first batch of 05 bikes) and you will see the difference pretty quickly. The Sunday's dw-link uses/ can use 1/3 the low speed compression damping of a normal bike, and still accelerate without wild and uncontrolled suspension movement. This allows the suspension tuner to use the low speed to tune chassis response to corner entry and exit as opposed to trying to contol acceleration reaction.

Of course, if the rider has no will to understand how to set up the bike, or doesn't have the money or time to do what it takes to get the correct spring rates under him then its all for naught. The advantage goes away. In the hands of an enthusiastic rider who understands how to set up his or her equipment the bike can be a true weapon and a real advantage at the edge of traction. If a rider doesn't know or care to try to tune the suspension, or isn't riding at the linits of traction, the advantages become more blurry.

Dave
 
Tame Ape

Tame Ape

BUY HOPE!!!!!!!
Mar 4, 2003
2,284
1
NYC
kidwoo said:
I'm designing a new temporary, instantaneous, theoretical spiraling pivot that exists in the 9th dimension. It's going to be so efficient it rolls by itself whenever it gets hit by dark matter.
Click to expand...
I've designed a bike with a horizontal axle path. No pedal feedback or chain-growth either. It's like giving a big FVCK YOU to square edged bumps everywhere. Look for it in 2008.
 
A

auntesther

Monkey
Oct 15, 2001
293
0
Boston, MA
offtheedge said:
really, how many on this board have ever hated the bike they purchased? I doubt very many. .
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I have. And I tried everything to make the bike work to my liking and couldnt so I moved on. I have also heard many people sing the praises of that particular bike from the mountain tops and says is the sweetest rig they have every rode. I also know some people who agreed with my feelings about the bike. To each their own. Everyone likes different things for a variety of reasons.
 
D

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
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sriracha said:
how much extra travel do you get out of your shockster? i was thinking about bolting one onto my v10 and converting it into a v12.
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Add a 24 inch rear wheel and a Hannebrink 12" travel fork and you will be totally dialed. :D
 
sriracha

sriracha

Monkey
Jun 9, 2006
496
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805
kidwoo said:
It depends on which model. The normal one gets about 2 inches and the dh version gets a trail gobbling 3 I think.

Once you get the cantilever brake bosses mounted on your v10, you'll be good to go.
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you mean, the shockster doesn't have brake bosses allready?!? i might just run a coaster brake cuz i'm pretty much known 'round these parts for destroying bike parts that hang off the frame cuz i'm superduper badazz. plus, coaster brakes are better for skidding.
 
kidwoo

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Aug 25, 2003
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sriracha said:
you mean, the shockster doesn't have brake bosses allready?!? i might just run a coaster brake cuz i'm pretty much known 'round these parts for destroying bike parts that hang off the frame cuz i'm superduper badazz. plus, coaster brakes are better for skidding.
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The shockster™ mounts on the frame using existing brake bosses on the frameand then has it's own super duper shockster™ quality bosses to run the rim brake of your choice.
 
sriracha

sriracha

Monkey
Jun 9, 2006
496
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kidwoo said:
The shockster™ mounts on the frame using existing brake bosses on the frameand then has it's own super duper shockster™ quality bosses to run the rim brake of your choice.
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oh, gotcha. i'll just drill some holes and thru-bolt that shockster on. nothing a solid batch of JB WELD can't fix.
 
sriracha

sriracha

Monkey
Jun 9, 2006
496
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kidwoo said:
Exactly.

How you feeling? You riding yet? I just comitted to a bootleg trip the weekend of the 20th.
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i'm feeling allright. i'm not riding yet. actually, today is my first day on one crutch, down from two over the last 3 months. working on range of motion. i can get full revolutions on the stationary bike, but not a normal bike. i've got 6 weeks to get that knee/quad back in shape, then i go in and get a bionic ACL. so, i'll be hittin up my road bike (1982 holdsworth special, reynolds tubing) in a week or two.
i picked up a stray 6point6 frame to lift my spirits, as a project bike. i stare at that thing as i'm mashing down scare tissue, like a scene out of "pumping iron".
a little bootleg rehab trip in the spring would be fun, but i'd most likely be riding the XC trails.
 
sriracha

sriracha

Monkey
Jun 9, 2006
496
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kidwoo said:
Damn son. Take care of that thing. There will be other trips this winter.
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yah, i messed my knee up pretty good. i can sense my priorities shifting from athlete to paparazzi. keep me informed of any future bootleg trips, i'm looking for subject matter. i won't bail out at the last second, again.:)
 
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