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Reviving XC Racing - Your Input Needed

Clark Kent

Monkey
Oct 1, 2001
325
0
Mpls
I think the big hairy guy is right...XC has changed over the years...into a spectator sport, which it wasnt in its beginning. A XC race is a spectator sport kind of, in as much as some people like to watch it...talk about it but ride very little. What the xc world needs is to become less concerned with sponsors and such. It does not take a large collection of corporate sponsorships televised or national competitions or the like for a pastime to continue having equipment design advance. Just look at flat track dirt racing ( cars). If ya have a slack jawed yodel for a friend you might see this kinda thing every once in a while but the reality is that it is a core of people and companies that keep it going/advancing etc. Do you think that if the racing scene ( as week as it is now) disappeared companies would stop selling bikes to people with money? I think not...and true, racing programs are where new technologies are created/worked on IN THIS INSTANCE. There are a myriad of technologies/companies who are constantly involved in R&D that have no "racing outlet" for testing.... Does a bike that spends more time in a team van or on a plane than it does under a rider yield more info than a bike that is ridden constantly every day for months? I don't think so. Sure some say that the bikes aren't going to get worked as much under a non professional but those folks have stars in their eyes. There is no way that Marla or Greene or whomever is harder on bikes than the REAL RIDER who is out on the same bike day after day after day without a pro wrench and 60 days of traveling time every season! There are no electric shaving teams or Kitchen aid blending teams or microwave cooking teams, yet they still manage to constantly come up with product advancements. Racing is great ( or would be if it wasn't for the totally childish shows of competitiveness ) but lets NOT act like it is the life line for the sport! The main thing the xc racing scene needs is less rock star and less whining and screaming and crying cus of a flat tyre or someone cut some else off and cost john dork his third place finish in sport class!


there is my rant...................:monkey:


can ya tell I'm kida grass rooty?
 

Hardtail

Chimp
Aug 6, 2002
1
0
SO CAL
Personally I think as for watching goes something along the lines of 4X or some kind of BMX style thing is pretty cool BUT it can not replace XC racing it's like comparing apples and oranges in my book. I was watching speed channel the other day and some kind of Enduro/XC motorcycle race was on, it was pretty cool and made me think about this very subject. I mean really how many average Joe types even know this exists? Not many I think but how many know about Super Cross? Most everybody I would say.
My point is in order to make mtn biking more popular overall I agree it would be cool to have some spectator friendly stuff but XC is what it needs to be, "cross country" not a bunch of laps that add up to the same amount of miles as a loop out in the woods. I think as with motorcycles both types of racing need to exist.
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
12,735
1,426
Fort of Rio Grande
I say leave XC to be what it is - a competition where speed, power and strategy are the keys. Altering a sport for mass spectator appeal seems like something FOX would do ala XFL… Circuit XC seems bizarre.

Are XC events held for the participants or the spectators? I personally find spectator driven sports a big yawn, I don’t like to watch – but I do enjoy participating in my chosen sports and athletic activities.
 

Woggle Bear

Chimp
May 8, 2002
57
0
Northcentral Louisiana
I really did not have spectators in mind when I was day dreaming about the new format we are discussing. I was thinking more about the racers and the courses. I do not wish to replace XC, just add a alternate event. I thought it would be a bit more exciting for the racer. One that could be held in more areas around the country, and could be enjoyed regardless of your specific MTB discipline. There would be things in the course that would challenge everyone regardless of their dicipline. There should be climbs and DH, if the venue allows, some jumps, technical sections (natural & manmade), sprint sections, and what ever else the course designer feels like throwing in. The jumps and tech areas would have lines around them for riders that could not clear them, but they would not be impossable to ride for the average joe. The starts could be done in mass like XC now or BMX 10 man motos. Which ever works best for the number of racers and course.

It's just a thought. I really do not think XC will be replaced, there are too many people that enjoy it. But there are others out here that would like to see something different come along.

WB
 

El Jefe

Dr. Phil Jefe
Nov 26, 2001
793
0
OC in SoCal
I say that more choices is better, but that classic XC doesn't need to disappear. So what if the ride isn't very technical? So what if it is more a test of fitness than bike handling skill? I ride road, XC and DH, and I can say for sure that each is very different from the other. Believe it or not, there are a lot of riders who don't like racing road but don't like serious technical riding. These are the ones racing today's XC and short track. What's wrong with that? Nothing.
 
G

gravity

Guest
just make it 10X more technical.... i watched the XC at the Commonwealth and Olympic games, and boy was it boring. at the C'wealth games, some parts WERE actually on paved road.... how lame. i can't stand stuff that is too easy.
 
R

rstrange1

Guest
I have been tellin people this for years.
XC is NOT Cyclocross.


SEE EPIC XC For details. 4"x4" is the new norm.

:love:
 

nite rider

Chimp
Feb 20, 2002
32
0
Medford, MA
Originally posted by RideMonkey
I posted this earlier in the racing forum but though it would make a good front page discussion

Over the years XC racing has become more and more a non-technical sport that caters to fitness almost exclusively while neglecting handling skills and bicycle technology. XC racing is a poor sport for spectators. Its hard to watch because the courses are so long. Rigid frames and 63-80 mm forks are still the norm because the courses are generally non-demanding from a technical standpoint. Bike companies are not getting much exposure for the latest and greatest in suspension technology and other technical advances on the newest bikes.

Short track racing was created as a more spectator friendly form of racing. This is the worst thing that has ever happened to professional racing. Short track is glorified road racing. Its not technical at all! I wouldn't be surprised to see people showing up on Cyclocross bikes to race short track!

XC racing is on the decline. The best pro racers are turning to road racing or even triathalon so that they have a chance to make some money. I feel that 2 things need to be done to save professional XC racing: make it an exciting spectator sport and make racing more valuable to bicycle industry sponsors by making it a showcase for new technology.

Here is an idea for a new venue that is spectator friendly, exciting, and will showcase technology:

First of all put the mountain back in the biking. Those short track races are glorified road courses. Not technical at all. XC racing needs to be a showcase for new technology like downhill is. Downhill has become a much more interesting sport because its spectator friendly, fun to watch, and is driven by the latest technology.



whoa! slow down there buddy. Perhaps you should reconsider your judgments since you live out west where there really isn't a race that offers and real technical course as they do here in New England. Did you happen to catch the Norba Nationals this past weekend at Mt. Snow? The crowd was huge (over 25K) and they went to ALL events (XC, downhill, mountain cross, short track, dual s). They were line up all along the 5 mile XC course that would leave any western rider aching in pain. The riding here in the East is much different that out west which is why most of the top mountain bikers come from this area. The roots, mud, rocks.. it's all insane compared to the dry rock slabs and dusty trails of the west. People come here to watch the crashes and carnage all over the place. Yeah, short track may be more geared to road but it's fun as hell to watch. Sprinting for 20 minutes + 3 laps on a mountain bike is definitely not an easy task. Oh one more thing.. they also held the annual Naked Crit where about 1000 people show up in a parking lot when it gets dark and guys and girls strip down to race a few laps butt naked for money. Check it[url="http://www.mtbmind.com]here[/url] for pictures. XC mountain bike racing is pure endurance and all about technical riding.. at least here in New England.
 

Woggle Bear

Chimp
May 8, 2002
57
0
Northcentral Louisiana
XC is NOT Cyclocross
Funny you should mention that... I was in Keystone Col. last summer for the X-Terra race there(I was a group mechanic, not a racer) . The X-Terra course had a long climb but then the descent consisted of sections of their DH runs! But everyone dismounted CX style and walked those sections.

I prerode it with my group and thought it was a kickass course. But it did take 4 trys to clear some of the DH sections on my Fuel(whick broke as soon as I got home:rolleyes: ) but was doable. Lots of fun, even with the 9 mile climb.

I think adding technical stuff like that into XC would be great! But to do that for 30 miles...I would crash and die:D
Maybe a ten mile sprint race over a very technical course + a normal XC race the next day. Total points takes the over all win. Or you could compete in one or the other?
That way there is something there for everyone.

WB
 
R

RideMonkey

Guest
Originally posted by nite rider


whoa! slow down there buddy. Perhaps you should reconsider your judgments since you live out west where there really isn't a race that offers and real technical course as they do here in New England. Did you happen to catch the Norba Nationals this past weekend at Mt. Snow? The crowd was huge (over 25K) and they went to ALL events (XC, downhill, mountain cross, short track, dual s). They were line up all along the 5 mile XC course that would leave any western rider aching in pain. The riding here in the East is much different that out west which is why most of the top mountain bikers come from this area. The roots, mud, rocks.. it's all insane compared to the dry rock slabs and dusty trails of the west. People come here to watch the crashes and carnage all over the place. Yeah, short track may be more geared to road but it's fun as hell to watch. Sprinting for 20 minutes + 3 laps on a mountain bike is definitely not an easy task. Oh one more thing.. they also held the annual Naked Crit where about 1000 people show up in a parking lot when it gets dark and guys and girls strip down to race a few laps butt naked for money. Check it[url="http://www.mtbmind.com]here[/url] for pictures. XC mountain bike racing is pure endurance and all about technical riding.. at least here in New England.
The points of this thread were obviously lost on you:
1. Do not replace XC
2. Create an event that is more accessible to people of different regions
3. Create a fresh event that will appeal to those that are tired or uninterested in the current format.
4. Create an event that has more potential as a viable professional sport.

You may like to watch short track but most people think its boring.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
10,060
62
chez moi
Originally posted by nite rider


The riding here in the East is much different that out west which is why most of the top mountain bikers come from this area. The roots, mud, rocks.. it's all insane compared to the dry rock slabs and dusty trails of the west.
Ahem.

No. The West has plenty of technical riding, and I'm sick of hearing East Coasters bash it. (I'm a transplanted East Coaster myself.) It's just that the XC RACE COURSES tend not to take advantage of it; it's a cultural trend, not a topological one, IMHO.

Dry and dusty or sandy, yes...extremely rocky and technical in places-not just flat 'slabs' to ride on. Buffed and smooth in places, just like the East. (Say...Tsali.) Trails get rutted up beyond belief out here, too.

Head north and you're in Vancouver.

Hell, up in Big Bear there's a fairly technical XC course at Rim Nordic that I love. If all races were like that one, I don't think we'd even be HAVING this discussion.

I do think you're right about one thing...most East Coast xc racers aren't complaining about their courses. But if you don't think it can be technical out here, meet me in Vegas and we'll ride Bootleg Canyon together, or I'll take you to Anderson Truck Trail or Aliso here in CA.

-Mike
 

nite rider

Chimp
Feb 20, 2002
32
0
Medford, MA
Originally posted by MikeD


Ahem.

No. The West has plenty of technical riding, and I'm sick of hearing East Coasters bash it. (I'm a transplanted East Coaster myself.) It's just that the XC RACE COURSES tend not to take advantage of it; it's a cultural trend, not a topological one, IMHO.

Dry and dusty or sandy, yes...extremely rocky and technical in places-not just flat 'slabs' to ride on. Buffed and smooth in places, just like the East. (Say...Tsali.) Trails get rutted up beyond belief out here, too.

Head north and you're in Vancouver.

Hell, up in Big Bear there's a fairly technical XC course at Rim Nordic that I love. If all races were like that one, I don't think we'd even be HAVING this discussion.

I do think you're right about one thing...most East Coast xc racers aren't complaining about their courses. But if you don't think it can be technical out here, meet me in Vegas and we'll ride Bootleg Canyon together, or I'll take you to Anderson Truck Trail or Aliso here in CA.

-Mike
Yeah I hear yeah. I'm not saying there is no technical stuff at all aout there but everyone that I know that rides there never sees roots or mud like out here (unless you head to BC). I just did a 24 hour race with a guy from New Mexico and he was complaining on how humid it was and how slick the roots were. It was a dry day compared to what we usually ride. I guess I'm saying that most of the big races out west aren't as technical as they are in the east. I've heard a lot of people that say they think New England has the best riding XC riding in the US.
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
12,735
1,426
Fort of Rio Grande
Originally posted by nite rider


Yeah I hear yeah. I'm not saying there is no technical stuff at all aout there but everyone that I know that rides there never sees roots or mud like out here (unless you head to BC). I just did a 24 hour race with a guy from New Mexico and he was complaining on how humid it was and how slick the roots were. It was a dry day compared to what we usually ride. I guess I'm saying that most of the big races out west aren't as technical as they are in the east. I've heard a lot of people that say they think New England has the best riding XC riding in the US.
DUDE - you do not speak from experience in the PNW. You cannot ride XC anywhere without root wads, mud, loose rocks and I ain't never seen a rock slab round here! This aint the mohab baby - we're rideing in the woods for our XC. Oh... there ain't no parking lots either and horses don't care where they ****!
 

Roasted

Turbo Monkey
Jul 4, 2002
1,491
0
Whistler, BC
Whoa. I was worried there for a minute. Refering to out west as non technical. I thought someone smoked too much. Then I saw the reference to BC. My heart settled back down.

The question is simple. Revive XC racing.

1 - make is more exciting. Distance is boring and really distances the crowd. This only applys if it is distance only. With technical it makes it difficult and interesting.

2 - for me pack racing sucks. I was watching a race on TV and everyone ended up walking the best technical section. Why cause one guy at the front couldn't navigate the chut and wham everyone ended up walking through a section that sure looked eay to me. Make smaller time trial packs of something to fix this definate problem

For me it is simple. But I am not a pure person at heart. I like thrill and speed. I am not an endurance based person,
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
10,060
62
chez moi
I'm sorry for inciting an east vs west riot...!:eek:

Let's all flash our signs and go away peacefully...this thread was going somewhere before I opened my big :monkey: mouth.

-MD
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
12,735
1,426
Fort of Rio Grande
Originally posted by MikeD
I'm sorry for inciting an east vs west riot...!:eek:

Let's all flash our signs and go away peacefully...this thread was going somewhere before I opened my big :monkey: mouth.

-MD
I'll be good after a few beers. Here is what I call XC and what I ride the most. Peace.
 

nite rider

Chimp
Feb 20, 2002
32
0
Medford, MA
Originally posted by Serial Midget


DUDE - you do not speak from experience in the PNW. You cannot ride XC anywhere without root wads, mud, loose rocks and I ain't never seen a rock slab round here! This aint the mohab baby - we're rideing in the woods for our XC.

Hence my reference to BC.... which IS in the PNW.
 

Rotifer

Chimp
Aug 13, 2002
18
0
Walla Walla, WA
here is what we typically race on:
That's technical? Am I missing something? I think one thing people don't realize about the west is the phenomenal variety of terrain and conditions (thanks to our mountains and the Gulf of Alaska). As for the racing, I agree that most of the courses are boring (WHIM), Schweitzer is usually fun.
 

SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
3,944
35
Roanoke, VA
So,
I'm new to this whole ridemonkey scene, but i literally grew up at mountainbike races and on the mountainbike circuit, so i feel like i have some perspective.
Basically all of the proposals to create a new types of hybrid XC racing with jumps and forced "technical" challenges are kind of lame. Sorry but it's how i feel. back in the good old days courses were no harder than they were now, it's just technology has improved so much that it is no longer challenging to ride a "normal trail" with a "normal" bike.

As for short track, it is a real bike race, and it is really really really hard. Period. I don't know about it being a National Championship event, but the phyiological and tactical attributes required for succes in that event make it legit in my book.

Personally i stopped riding all my fancy scandium disc braked FS bikes and went back to a rigid Team Fat. I still race, and it's still fun. I get callouses i haven't had since '94 and i have a great excuse for not slaying fields like i once did.
The main thing that has driven me (and i suspect many other lifers) away from xc racing and more toward road racing, Real Life, or Honda tuning these last few years is the absolutely contrived nature of the the "ski area" races and the the obligatory entryfees, grim faces and general wannabee-ism that go along with them.

I say leave the ski areas to the skiers, the jumps and technology to the fat recreational riders and DHers, and bring xc back to small farms, town parks and epic state forest loops where it once belonged.


RECLAIM YOUR SPORT SAY NO TO SKI AREAS!
 

SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
3,944
35
Roanoke, VA
Originally posted by Gutty
Excuse me if this has been covered already,
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\.
This kind of event would/could also see many different bike types in one race. You could have some guys/girls with the full on XC climber setup of HT with long stem who would excel at the uphill part but may have to do all the roll-arounds for the jumps. Then you might have some people useing a more DS setup so as to clear all the jumps on the MX course but maybe struggle a bit on the up hill. Take the bike that is going to help the most with what skills you have.

I hope all that made sense.
Thats my dribble on it.
You probally don't know it but you just described the Roostmaster series. In the heydays of MTB racing Rick Sutton (the galeforce moron) decided to do this. He got BudLite as a sponsor and the idea eventually petered out after 4 years or so.
because the event was longer than 5 minutes everone eventually chose XC bikes and the perenial mid nineties powerhouses Tomac and Tinker dominated. and yes they did clear the doubles.
 

Roasted

Turbo Monkey
Jul 4, 2002
1,491
0
Whistler, BC
Originally posted by Capt. Burntout
So,
I'm new to this whole ridemonkey scene, but i literally grew up at mountainbike races and on the mountainbike circuit, so i feel like i have some perspective.
Basically all of the proposals to create a new types of hybrid XC racing with jumps and forced "technical" challenges are kind of lame. Sorry but it's how i feel. back in the good old days courses were no harder than they were now, it's just technology has improved so much that it is no longer challenging to ride a "normal trail" with a "normal" bike.

As for short track, it is a real bike race, and it is really really really hard. Period. I don't know about it being a National Championship event, but the phyiological and tactical attributes required for succes in that event make it legit in my book.

Personally i stopped riding all my fancy scandium disc braked FS bikes and went back to a rigid Team Fat. I still race, and it's still fun. I get callouses i haven't had since '94 and i have a great excuse for not slaying fields like i once did.
The main thing that has driven me (and i suspect many other lifers) away from xc racing and more toward road racing, Real Life, or Honda tuning these last few years is the absolutely contrived nature of the the "ski area" races and the the obligatory entryfees, grim faces and general wannabee-ism that go along with them.

I say leave the ski areas to the skiers, the jumps and technology to the fat recreational riders and DHers, and bring xc back to small farms, town parks and epic state forest loops where it once belonged.


RECLAIM YOUR SPORT SAY NO TO SKI AREAS!
I am sorry but to say a sport shouldn't progress is deadly. No sport has lacked progression. Ski areas are perfect for biking just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't so. Regular mountain biking is about as exciting to watch as road racing. Most people (average non bikers and even some bikers) will not watch mountain biking. In order for this sport to be considered legit and a watched sport something does have to be done to make it more exciting.

However fine leave the old xc class. But make a freeride section. Not like red bull but technically advanced xc. Make them with varrying terrains and different lines. Also ensure areas for people to watch 'good' sections.

Fat recreational bikers and dhers eh? Well I won't even justify that statement with a comment. Progression is a part of life, and of sport. Take a look at skiers and snowboarders (a progression in and of itself)

You can have your off-road roads that are 100k loops.

Cheers.
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
12,735
1,426
Fort of Rio Grande
Originally posted by Capt. Burntout
I say leave the ski areas to the skiers, the jumps and technology to the fat recreational riders and DHers, and bring xc back to small farms, town parks and epic state forest loops where it once belonged.

RECLAIM YOUR SPORT SAY NO TO SKI AREAS!
:eek: I keep my mouth shut on this one :D

What do you think of the 96/97 Giant ATX 990 Team frames? I just picked up an NOS unbuilt frame cheap so I could have a 4-Bar. I posted an image in the tech-talk forum.
 

nite rider

Chimp
Feb 20, 2002
32
0
Medford, MA
Originally posted by maelstrom


I am sorry but to say a sport shouldn't progress is deadly. No sport has lacked progression. Ski areas are perfect for biking just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't so. Regular mountain biking is about as exciting to watch as road racing. Most people (average non bikers and even some bikers) will not watch mountain biking. In order for this sport to be considered legit and a watched sport something does have to be done to make it more exciting.

However fine leave the old xc class. But make a freeride section. Not like red bull but technically advanced xc. Make them with varrying terrains and different lines. Also ensure areas for people to watch 'good' sections.

Fat recreational bikers and dhers eh? Well I won't even justify that statement with a comment. Progression is a part of life, and of sport. Take a look at skiers and snowboarders (a progression in and of itself)

You can have your off-road roads that are 100k loops.

Cheers.
you're talking like there s no such thing as "real" cross country racing anymore. You're being very sterotypical which is probably due to the fact you experience riding in the PNW. XC mountain biking is NOT about freeriding. It's about training your ass off like all of the roadies do to build your stamina and endurance as well as dominate the technical.

Here in New England, XC racing is very popular. People love to watch it so I don't know how you can say they don't. You should
head to the World 24 hour solo championships in BC at the end of the month. Racing here is technical and hosted all over ski areas (Nationals were at Mt. Snow). If you are telling me that people do not want to watch XC racing after I saw roughly 20K spectators last weekend lined through the woods and cheering for everyone that came through.... then this discussion is over.
 

nite rider

Chimp
Feb 20, 2002
32
0
Medford, MA
Originally posted by maelstrom

However fine leave the old xc class. But make a freeride section. Not like red bull but technically advanced xc. Make them with varrying terrains and different lines. Also ensure areas for people to watch 'good' sections.


Cheers.
Is mountain cross enough of a freeride event for you? Dude there is DH, XC, mountain cross, trials, dual slalom, ant short track!! What else could you possibly want? Oh I got it.. how about you invent a race where 2 guys/girls start on the top of the mountain, give them modified DH bikes with 5" tires, 25" of suspension with no brakes and no pads. We can call it extreme DH. Would that excite you?

Oh look... NORBA invented Mountain Cross 2 years ago!
 

SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
3,944
35
Roanoke, VA
Originally posted by maelstrom


I am sorry but to say a sport shouldn't progress is deadly. No sport has lacked progression. Ski areas are perfect for biking just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't so. Regular mountain biking is about as exciting to watch as road racing. Most people (average non bikers and even some bikers) will not watch mountain biking. In order for this sport to be considered legit and a watched sport something does have to be done to make it more exciting.
>>>>>>>>>> This sport is Legit, Commonwealth games Olympics, and even once there was Big Money. Belive it or not people actually DO watch XC racing, but their numbers pale in comparison to the amount of people who show up on the sides of a road to watch people (gasp) climb mountains in the grand tours.
Why does racing have to be exciting to watch anyway?
I always thought that racing was supposed to be for racers?
I was talking to a friend of mine who happens to be a retired old XC pro, and we both agreed Racers make the race, not the course. you could hold worlds on a golf course and the same people would still win.
If you live at a world famous ski mountain i belive you probally lack a good bit of objectivity about the state of mtb riding and racing world wide. most people still ride on trails like xc courses, with a hardtail or FSR type bike. And most places in the world XC courses are still very difficult. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Cheers.
 

Roasted

Turbo Monkey
Jul 4, 2002
1,491
0
Whistler, BC
I actually didn't mean to make my statement sound that extreme I just believe there is room for everyone. I don't do any extreme freeriding. But I did take offence to a couple of statements by capt burnout. Obviously xc is and will always be around but to try and keep mountain biking that way is wrong. I did not actually mean for my statement to come across as a blanket statement against xc racing. I am sorry about that but to say that xc is the only way.

"dh or fat recreational riders". That is the statement that more concerned me. There is xc in the mountain on short and long track with some freeriding in there for technique. Not everyone is fat in fact most arent' generally speaking most of the freeriders I know are not only strong aerobically but strong anaerobically as well.

And nite rider I don't think you actually read my statement. I am not a dhiller. Not my thing. I don't think you have to be brought to the top of the mountain and let gravity do its work. I enjoy pedaling to the top and then screaming down the mountain. I just think being more technical might make things more difficult anaerobically. But this is my preference as I prefer more power based sports than I do pure aerobic. (btw I find watching mountain cross boring. There are a lot of events happening here and it is pretty dull watching 4 guys screaming down the mountain and doing tricks over table tops)

Why does racing have to be exciting to watch anyway?
Personal opinion I suppose. I enjoy excitement. I enjoy things being difficult and challenging on many levels.
 
R

RideMonkey

Guest
Originally posted by nite rider


Is mountain cross enough of a freeride event for you? Dude there is DH, XC, mountain cross, trials, dual slalom, ant short track!! What else could you possibly want? Oh I got it.. how about you invent a race where 2 guys/girls start on the top of the mountain, give them modified DH bikes with 5" tires, 25" of suspension with no brakes and no pads. We can call it extreme DH. Would that excite you?
Once again you have ignored every point of the thread. MTNX is a downhill event.
 
R

RideMonkey

Guest
Originally posted by Capt. Burntout
So,
I'm new to this whole ridemonkey scene, but i literally grew up at mountainbike races and on the mountainbike circuit, so i feel like i have some perspective.
Basically all of the proposals to create a new types of hybrid XC racing with jumps and forced "technical" challenges are kind of lame. Sorry but it's how i feel. back in the good old days courses were no harder than they were now, it's just technology has improved so much that it is no longer challenging to ride a "normal trail" with a "normal" bike.

As for short track, it is a real bike race, and it is really really really hard. Period. I don't know about it being a National Championship event, but the phyiological and tactical attributes required for succes in that event make it legit in my book.

Personally i stopped riding all my fancy scandium disc braked FS bikes and went back to a rigid Team Fat. I still race, and it's still fun. I get callouses i haven't had since '94 and i have a great excuse for not slaying fields like i once did.
The main thing that has driven me (and i suspect many other lifers) away from xc racing and more toward road racing, Real Life, or Honda tuning these last few years is the absolutely contrived nature of the the "ski area" races and the the obligatory entryfees, grim faces and general wannabee-ism that go along with them.

I say leave the ski areas to the skiers, the jumps and technology to the fat recreational riders and DHers, and bring xc back to small farms, town parks and epic state forest loops where it once belonged.


RECLAIM YOUR SPORT SAY NO TO SKI AREAS!

There are some valid points here but I really wish you guys would read through the thread so that we didn't have to cover the same points over and over.

1. It was plainly stated that obstacles were not "forced", that they were optional.
2. What part of "This is not to replace XC" do you not understand? If I had a dollar for every time I said this in this thread I'd have like 5 bucks.
3. You may think short track is exciting but you are the minority. I started racing before suspension, before anything was high tech and the courses were long and tough and the people racing those events were were a bunch of tough mofos. Short track is the worst progression of competetive cycling that I have seen in my 15 years of racing.
4. Before you go calling DHers fat, maybe you should remember guys like Tomac. He did it all. And I still run into these guys at races - guys that race pro XC AND pro DH. These guys are worthy of much respect!!!
5. Whether you like it or not technology is changing. And it is better. Current formats (especially short track) do very little to showcase all the great new technology out there. My last bike was a team Fat and I loved it. I crashed it out last fall and got a dually and I'm not going back!

XC racing just isnt fun anymore to a lot of people. The only real interesting new format that has emerged is 24hr. The rest just doesnt hold the interest of racing veterens like me or the newer generation of riders. So lets look at some options.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
10,060
62
chez moi
Originally posted by nite rider


Is mountain cross enough of a freeride event for you?

back in the good old days courses were no harder than they were now, it's just technology has improved so much that it is no longer challenging to ride a "normal trail" with a "normal" bike.

MtnX is not a freeride event at all. It's more of a BMX/DH hybrid. It involves big jumps, but the course is groomed and bermed. There aren't any rock/root sections or obstacles of any kind, which are what define technical riding.

I think one of the big distinctions between DH and freeride is that freeride tends to take place on more natural-style trails (albeit with those stunts in the PNW and other places) while DH racing takes place on a purpose-built groomed course.

The idea of it being technology being the impetus for change just isn't true. Technical XC-style riding isn't F-S exclusive. That said, why should anyone be against improvements in technology?

It's a given today that motorcycles, except for a certain type geared towards a certain individual with a certain purpose (who also doesn't ride his moto for long distances), are full-suspension...yet this once wasn't the case. Is anyone worse-off for this? I LOVE hardtail bicycles...they can be fun and teach a lot about better technique. However, they offer little advantage when it comes to absolute performance, all other things being equal.

Whatever the reasons, a lot of people are dissatisfied with race courses. If riders today are looking for more challenge, whether it be technical or fitness-oriented (not many people complaining the courses are too easy on the legs, though), I think we should try to accomodate them with a race event that satisfies their wants. Technical riding, on any sort of bike, is the name of the game these days.

-MD


-MD
 

mom

Chimp
Aug 24, 2002
7
0
Originally posted by RideMonkey

XC racing just isnt fun anymore to a lot of people. The only real interesting new format that has emerged is 24hr. The rest just doesnt hold the interest of racing veterens like me or the newer generation of riders. So lets look at some options.
First I'd like to thank you for not allowing me to post on my other screen name. That your way of controlling the argument?

Secondly, it sounds like you are the one that is not having fun with XC racing anymore. XC racing is the same as it always was. The only things that change are the people doing it. Seems to me like you are bored with it and hopped on your freeride banwaggon. XC racing is there and as intense as you or anyone wants to make it. Like someone said before, the racers make the race, not the people watching.
 
R

RideMonkey

Guest
Originally posted by mom


First I'd like to thank you for not allowing me to post on my other screen name. That your way of controlling the argument?
What in the world are you talking about? You are the only one arguing (I'm guessing you are that Nite Rider character?).

Theres a lot of people in this thread that are ready for a change. Like I have said over 1 million times in this thread we are not talking about replacing XC racing just creating an option that will appeal to those not happy with the current options. Why does that piss you off so much?
 

mom

Chimp
Aug 24, 2002
7
0
Originally posted by RideMonkey

Why does that piss you off so much?

Because it's those little comments that make the "newer" generation of riders shy away from XC racing when I'm trying to promote it. You think starting a thread which talks about the idea of "progressing" XC into something else is going to make the next generation of riders to race old school XC? It's like when snowboarding started. Snowboarding is so popular now because the newer generation is attracted to it which is due to the fact of all the talk and hype. The newer generation will not go into skiing right off unless he/she is born into it from a generation of skiers. Kids are attracted to what is cool and in style at the moment and if XC racing is converted into some yuppy alternative, then myself or any other XC racer will be viewed by the next generation as old news.. that is until 50 years passes and it all starts over again.

If you want to start a new trend in XC racing just for the sake of "popularity" then all the power to you but I hate to tell you but XC is alive, strong and growing large here in the North East.
 
R

RideMonkey

Guest
Originally posted by mom



Because it's those little comments that make the "newer" generation of riders shy away from XC racing when I'm trying to promote it. You think starting a thread which talks about the idea of "progressing" XC into something else is going to make the next generation of riders to race old school XC? It's like when snowboarding started. Snowboarding is so popular now because the newer generation is attracted to it which is due to the fact of all the talk and hype. The newer generation will not go into skiing right off unless he/she is born into it from a generation of skiers. Kids are attracted to what is cool and in style at the moment and if XC racing is converted into some yuppy alternative, then myself or any other XC racer will be viewed by the next generation as old news.. that is until 50 years passes and it all starts over again.

If you want to start a new trend in XC racing just for the sake of "popularity" then all the power to you but I hate to tell you but XC is alive, strong and growing large here in the North East.
Do you know that you are a very unpleasant person? Do you know that nobody touched your original account so your paranoia is unfounded? Do you know that there are other parts of the US besides the Northeast?

Have you read the entire thread? Have you seen that there are people that live in flat states that would love to see this kind of format locally? Do you understand that this format would benefit certain people and certain regions? Do you have any perspective outside of your own?

And most importantly, which part of I AM NOT SUGGESTING REPLACING XC RACING do you not understand?

Do you know that I still race XC? Do you know that I have raced XC much much longer than you so I know a thing or two about it? Do you know that if this new format were available I would still race XC because I like variety?

Do you know?
 

Roasted

Turbo Monkey
Jul 4, 2002
1,491
0
Whistler, BC
Thats pretty funny I was actually going to bring up the whole snowboarding evolution. But I figured I would leave it to you. Snowboarding is popular because of several reason. The least of which it is fun and easier to get to a ridable level. But that is not what this discussion is about.

I am not sure how old you are but in the future (younger than me) they will be the riders. Of the 50 some kinds (18 to 25) that I sometimes I ride with most don't like 'pure' xc. Of those most don't like extreme freeriding. They like it somewhere in between. Its these kids that will be riding in the future.

One other thing about the east. Most companies that are born and bread in the eat are dead or dying. Bike companies are becoming a thing of the past. Guess what the companies focussing on the technology and 'advancing' mountain biking to new levels are thriving. Yes right now it is a west coast thing (not really but thats where its popularity stems) but if I went back home to my good old trails and threw in some technical manmade stuff and moved the trail onto some of the hills that were avoided and dragged some of my old buds up there they would love it. It is fun to push your body and skills into the next level.

You kind of remind me of my grandad when he talks about how computer are not an advancement but really the downfall. Take it as you will but no matter how old I get I hope I can always embrace and except change.
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
12,735
1,426
Fort of Rio Grande
Ummm. I wonder if I got my wires crossed? To me XC is going up as well as down and it can be technical as well as twisty. It takes a long hard effort, lot's of strength and strategy to compete (stuff I don't have) effectively. I've never had the urge to actually watch XC racing.

DH is very fun to watch but not from an athletic standpoint; I like to watch DH solely for the stunts and skills the kids represent - stuff I would never do myself. I don't confuse technical skill events with athletic endurance events. I simply like the spectacle and... some of those fat boys can MOVE! I'm after sweet jumps, great crashes and lotsa blood.

I can see taking the best of both worlds and making a new sport but the XC crowd would not be happy because the DH'rs have to stop for a bowl every now and again.:D