[AngryMetalsmith]

is this already taken?

I read somewhere that Tony Ellsworth would request that male visitors to his home sit down to pee when in the bathroom. I think of someone said that to me I'd be inclined to say, "Uhh huhh...", and walk straight out the front door, take a leak in the bushes, then leave.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

RM doesn't disappoint.

Robo donkey covered in unicorn skin coming right up, 18" chainstays, fat tires, and falling rate suspension, delivered in two weeks with rootbeer paint.

too flexy

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

Anyone here ride at Vietnam?

 

[kidwoo]

 

[Udi]

So, now, we will have the SECOND case in 11 years, with a graph that is 70% wrong.

No, we actually don't.
In the DW case I mentioned, we have a verified measurement and analysis from at least one independent engineer (verifying the work of another engineer - DW - who designed the bike).

The case I explained was a minor error, and I know this because I saw both the original and corrected graphs, and the reason it was minor was that the direction of rate change was the same, just the magnitude that differed slightly.

You on the other hand are pulling numbers out of your ass to defend your work against a reputable person who actually did a basic analysis on your bike. You have provided no measurements or facts which substantiate your counter-claims. The basic analysis shows design errors that are not just of a far greater magnitude than simple measurement error, but also slopes of curves that are in the wrong direction to what is commonly accepted as engineering fact.

The magnitude of deviation from an ideal norm (examples given above by Sandwich) on your frame is roughly equal to the magnitude of bullshit you just tried to pull out of your ass.

 

[dump]

WHAT!!!!! DW DID NOT SHARE EXACT DETAILS AND WENT SO FAR AS TO ALTER PICTURES????

all so forum pundits chase their tails? Hmmmmmmmmm. I guess he's the only one allowed to do that.

People actually wanted to copy his design... and did. Feel free to do as you please. You seem to be missing the point stated above.

 

[norbar]

People actually wanted to copy his design... and did. Feel free to do as you please. You seem to be missing the point stated above.

And he was also quite open about a lot of his design while also truly explaining why it works instead pretending to be the Trump of Kinematics and claiming "I have the best design, the benefits are huge"

 

[norbar]

WOW, you ARE the smartest guy here. You know what IDEAL looks like!!! Would you please tell all the other bike designers too, so we can stop trying to figure out what that is and make all our bikes to your ideal?

It's funny since Udi actually talked with designers on this forum and to be honest I even remember him pointing out errors in one design so you don't have to ask him for that.

Also it's not his ideal. It's the consensus among the most competent people in the industry. No one claims there is one perfect solution but everyone agrees there are some preferable qualities a good suspension design in a same way people agree a car with 4 wheels is a good idea and that eating only pure butter is bad for your health. Also yes that's the level of statements you are arguing here.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

No, we actually don't.

Yes. Yes we do. I'm not worries, I have time and fact on my side.

You have a picture with 8 pivots measured, if you are lucky, to within +/- 2 mm. I have a design that if you change even 1 location by 2 mm, gives a drastic change in results.....If you were to present this as an engineer, to engineers, they would laugh you out of the room.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

N

You on the other hand are pulling numbers out of your ass to defend your work against a reputable person who actually did a basic analysis on your bike. You have provided no measurements or facts which substantiate your counter-claims. The basic analysis shows design errors that are not just of a far greater magnitude than simple measurement error, but also slopes of curves that are in the wrong direction to what is commonly accepted as engineering fact.

I am actually pulling numbers from the exact drawings from which the frame is built. Exact.

The person that did a basic analysis needs to turn in their engineering card. Bad engineering. Period.

I do not need to provide measurements and will not. that's just stupid. Nobody does that. You're not going to bully me into it by calling me names.

Commonly accepted engineering FACT!!!!!! This is the FUNNIEST part. Have you EVER engineered ANYTHING????? Engineers (and non-engineers) that go around spouting FACT from speculation are absolutely the worst kind. I've run into them throughout my life and generally will not hire or work with that arrogance. I know, engineers get a little slack, because they're taught in school that they know everything. What a terrible burden to have.

And why is it that commonly accepted engineering fact has 3 curves going digressive and 2 progressive? With wild swings in AS and LR?

You are saying 25% is the SAME!!!. C'mon UDI, you can come up with better arguments than that. Think a little before opening your mouth and removing all doubt.

 

[norbar]

Yes. Yes we do. I'm not worries, I have time and fact on my side.

You have a picture with 8 pivots measured, if you are lucky, to within +/- 2 mm. I have a design that if you change even 1 location by 2 mm, gives a drastic change in results.....If you were to present this as an engineer, to engineers, they would laugh you out of the room.

He does present it to engineers. On this forum. None of them is laughing. Maybe because instead of speaking about theory they talk about practice.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

People actually wanted to copy his design... and did. Feel free to do as you please. You seem to be missing the point stated above.

But WAIT, he had PATENTS. Why would he be concerned if he had PATENTS!!!! I've been told on this forum, not to worry, patents will protect me, tell us everything.

Maybe he was concerned, rightly so, that by giving accurate information, he would increase peoples learning curve about how he accomplished his goals...and didn't really want to do that. Time IS a competitive advantage. The longer you can throw pursuers off your trail, the better. And I have some of you chasing wild geese all OVER this forum.

Fun to watch and fun to participate. Be sure to keep wiping the spittle off your keyboard though.....

 

[norbar]

But WAIT, he had PATENTS. Why would he be concerned if he had PATENTS!!!! I've been told on this forum, not to worry, patents will protect me, tell us everything.

Maybe he was concerned, rightly so, that by giving accurate information, he would increase peoples learning curve about how he accomplished his goals...and didn't really want to do that. Time IS a competitive advantage. The longer you can throw pursuers off your trail, the better. And I have some of you chasing wild geese all OVER this forum.

Fun to watch and fun to participate. Be sure to keep wiping the spittle off your keyboard though.....

No you were not told here patents would protect you. I explicitly told you in this topic that if someone wants to copy your idea they will. They will just buy your bike, measure it, copy it and kill you with legal fees so stop posting statements that are untrue. Not posting your curves on RM will protect you from nothing unless you want to roll out your bike in 3+ years of time. Though that won't be true since the only bike engineers that would be hyped by your design are imaginary.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

He does present it to engineers. On this forum. None of them is laughing. Maybe because instead of speaking about theory they talk about practice.

I would like any of the degreed engineers to identify themselves so I can call their dynamics professors for a talk.

They are not laughing because they are making a ridiculous case based on really bad numbers. They've kinda painted themselves into a corner with no way out. It can't be a happy place to be.

Norbar, I kow you are not an engineer, but you have the "theory" and "practice" part a bit reversed. They talk "theory" on a linkage they do not have good numbers for, nor an understanding of its function.

I talk "practice", as in, I designed it with painstaking care and consideration of each effect and the results of changing each pivot location incrementally. I know its behaviour in its current configuration and I know how wonky things go when you start moving stuff around. How do I know this. Hundreds of iterations to get what I want.

Oh, and then, I know this is all just theory, I BUILT IT. Then I changed it and built another one. Then one more. I had people ride it. people I knew, people I didn't know. People that ride very fast. People that have accomplished a lot in this industry, not just "theory".

then I went into production. with fact. Practice. Real life. Some of you here might check that out. Real life. It's eye opening.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

No you were not told here patents would protect you. I explicitly told you in this topic that if someone wants to copy your idea they will. They will just buy your bike, measure it, copy it and kill you with legal fees so stop posting statements that are untrue. Not posting your curves on RM will protect you from nothing unless you want to roll out your bike in 3+ years of time. Though that won't be true since the only bike engineers that would be hyped by your design are imaginary.

Maybe you didn't, that argument has been presented here. about patents.

i'm glad you explicitly told me somebody will copy it. I bow to your knowledge, I never would've thought of that.

Not posting proprietary information does offer a competitive advantage. Feel free to patent an idea and tell everyone how you did it before you even hit the market. Good luck with that.

But I am only posting statements that are true. The fact that you don't believe them doesn't bother me a bit. It's a good thing.

 

[norbar]

I would like any of the degreed engineers to identify themselves so I can call their dynamics professors for a talk.

They are not laughing because they are making a ridiculous case based on really bad numbers. They've kinda painted themselves into a corner with no way out. It can't be a happy place to be.

Norbar, I kow you are not an engineer, but you have the "theory" and "practice" part a bit reversed. They talk "theory" on a linkage they do not have good numbers for, nor an understanding of its function.

I talk "practice", as in, I designed it with painstaking care and consideration of each effect and the results of changing each pivot location incrementally. I know its behaviour in its current configuration and I know how wonky things go when you start moving stuff around. How do I know this. Hundreds of iterations to get what I want.

Oh, and then, I know this is all just theory, I BUILT IT. Then I changed it and built another one. Then one more. I had people ride it. people I knew, people I didn't know. People that ride very fast. People that have accomplished a lot in this industry, not just "theory".

then I went into production. with fact. Practice. Real life. Some of you here might check that out. Real life. It's eye opening.

LOL at the bold part. Your sir are a master humorist.

PS.. I'm an engineer. Just not a mechanical one but that doesn't make your statements any more true. Stop claiming anyone who doesn't agree with you not an engineer as it really makes you look like you should just paint your bike spray tan orange and put a saddle on it that looks like blond roadkill.


btw. I'm pretty sure you are not the person who decides what's true and not true in the world. Though it's funny you do so. Though using your arguments you are not a philosophy major so you are not equipped to do so.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

He does present it to engineers. On this forum. None of them is laughing. Maybe because instead of speaking about theory they talk about practice.

Sorry norbar, nobody will ever accuse this forum as an engineering forum. It's a social forum about mountain bikes. While there are some technically minded people here, the vast majority are not.

 

[Udi]

In Tantrum Cycles' defence, at least he's staying true to the name of his company.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Y'know, I'm not sure I'd try this bike if somebody gave it to me for a week to hammer on it. Reading far too much of the design and performance rants, I would suspect that the company would be just as pissy about support and warranty as they have been in the above discussions.

Just sayin'.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

LOL at the bold part. Your sir are a master humorist.

PS.. I'm an engineer. Just not a mechanical one but that doesn't make your statements any more true. Stop claiming anyone who doesn't agree with you not an engineer as it really makes you look like you should just paint your bike spray tan orange and put a saddle on it that looks like blond roadkill.


btw. I'm pretty sure you are not the person who decides what's true and not true in the world. Though it's funny you do so. Though using your arguments you are not a philosophy major so you are not equipped to do so.

At least you like my humor.

Please don't say your a CE. As my dynamics professor was fond of saying, "solve the equations of motion for velocity, if it is zero, then it is a trivial case and we pass it on to CE's".

if there is an engineer basing their reputation on a photo, they might have a degree, but that is a pathetic representation of engineering.

I decide what's true about my design. At the moment, I am the only one qualified. Why? Extremely simple answer, I am the only one with accurate information. I am the only one with the actual bike. That kinda truth is hard to beat.

 

[norbar]

At least you like my humor.

Please don't say your a CE. As my dynamics professor was fond of saying, "solve the equations of motion for velocity, if it is zero, then it is a trivial case and we pass it on to CE's".

if there is an engineer basing their reputation on a photo, they might have a degree, but that is a pathetic representation of engineering.

I decide what's true about my design. At the moment, I am the only one qualified. Why? Extremely simple answer, I am the only one with accurate information. I am the only one with the actual bike. That kinda truth is hard to beat.

I don't own whatever you are claiming this CE is and since Im Polish I don't know the shortening but my profesors have also thought me that aproximations can be useful. Your apparently didn't. If you want my field of expertise let's just say my measurements have to be a bit more accurate than yours but I do still use aproximations when they don't have to be.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

I have a question. A challenge for all here who know all (you know who you are).

Since nobody accepted my challenge to move each pivot on their "analysis" by 2 mm in random directions. I know why. Somebody did and they were HORRIFIED by how much it changed the numbers and they don't want to admit it.

How about a friendly wager??? In a totally legal way of course. Maybe in Vegas, at Interbike, for a LOT of money.

Any takers? Who's confident? Bring it.

 

[Udi]

I'll put a tenner on zero participants of this thread buying your bike.

I decide what's true about my design.

and physics too, apparently.

 

[norbar]

In Tantrum Cycles' defence, at least he's staying true to the name of his company.

Good thing he doesn't own any weapons:

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

I don't own whatever you are claiming this CE is and since Im Polish I don't know the shortening but my profesors have also thought me that aproximations can be useful. Your apparently didn't. If you want my field of expertise let's just say my measurements have to be a bit more accurate than yours but I do still use aproximations when they don't have to be.

Sorry, CE =Civil Engineers. They design things that don't move, roads, buidings, bridges, etc. In the U.S., those things fail with alarming regularity, despite engineering FACT.

approximations are good. Trends are good. Theory is good. All useful. We all have to start somewhere. Presenting them as FACT, In the face of reality. Kind dumb.

 

[norbar]

I have a question. A challenge for all here who know all (you know who you are).

Since nobody accepted my challenge to move each pivot on their "analysis" by 2 mm in random directions. I know why. Somebody did and they were HORRIFIED by how much it changed the numbers and they don't want to admit it.

How about a friendly wager??? In a totally legal way of course. Maybe in Vegas, at Interbike, for a LOT of money.

Any takers? Who's confident? Bring it.

I'm on a mac. Linkage doesn't work on mac's. Buy me a pc.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

Good thing he doesn't own any weapons:

is that you norbar. I'm laughing the whole time, while you guys are the ones throwing a Tantrum, calling me names, telling me I'm stupid, full of shit, pulling numbers out of my ass, making physics up, not toeing the line of conventional thought (oh, wait, that one's true).

I'm having a blast watching your panties get in a twist.

 

[norbar]

Sorry, CE =Civil Engineers. They design things that don't move, roads, buidings, bridges, etc. In the U.S., those things fail with alarming regularity, despite engineering FACT.

approximations are good. Trends are good. Theory is good. All useful. We all have to start somewhere. Presenting them as FACT, In the face of reality. Kind dumb.

We claim they are reasonably accurate not fact. You have also aluded to some qualities of your suspension so we can extrapolate some of it from your posts (unless you are lying) and what you said often goes against the common knowledge of suspension design.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

I'm on a mac. Linkage doesn't work on mac's. Buy me a pc.

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

surely you have other, better analytical tools at your disposal. Just solve the equations of motion.

 

[norbar]

Sorry, CE =Civil Engineers. They design things that don't move, roads, buidings, bridges, etc. In the U.S., those things fail with alarming regularity, despite engineering FACT.

approximations are good. Trends are good. Theory is good. All useful. We all have to start somewhere. Presenting them as FACT, In the face of reality. Kind dumb.

You do know this largely unknown thing as wear? Things that get used a lot need repairs. Also maybe the US could spend more at it's infrastructure so then it won't suck. No probems with them in Yurp.

 

[norbar]

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

surely you have other, better analytical tools at your disposal. Just solve the equations of motion.

Given that I currently work as a non enginering analyst no. But you can buy me those too.

 

[Udi]

Since nobody accepted my challenge to move each pivot on their "analysis" by 2 mm in random directions. I know why. Somebody did and they were HORRIFIED by how much it changed the numbers and they don't want to admit it.

How about a friendly wager??? In a totally legal way of course. Maybe in Vegas, at Interbike, for a LOT of money

To be honest I was already HORRIFIED when I saw the hideous bike you designed, you already owe me a bunch of money for all the therapist visits I've had to book in.

You think hiring a good engineer is expensive, these psychiatrists are ridiculous!

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

We claim they are reasonably accurate not fact. You have also aluded to some qualities of your suspension so we can extrapolate some of it from your posts (unless you are lying) and what you said often goes against the common knowledge of suspension design.

I quote the great UDI "defend against a person that did a basic analysis of your bike". He doesn't say "approximation", he doesn't say "best guess based on a photo". If someone is "analysing" and presenting results as true. Well, true =fact in my language.

and your esteemed self "instead of speaking about theory, they're talking about practice". Practice, as in actual application. The actual application is about as factual as you can get, isn't it?

 

[norbar]

I quote the great UDI "defend against a person that did a basic analysis of your bike". He doesn't say "approximation", he doesn't say "best guess based on a photo". If someone is "analysing" and presenting results as true. Well, true =fact in my language.

and your esteemed self "instead of speaking about theory, they're talking about practice". Practice, as in actual application. The actual application is about as factual as you can get, isn't it?

"basic" which means reasonably accurate aproximation. This has been stated. As well as the level of accuracy. You seem to overuse the word fact more than anyone in this topic. Please stop. Rhetorically it makes me cringe.

As for practice again. Designing a bike no one rode (RC doesn't count ) doesn't mean you have practice in designing good bikes. Just bikes. Again. Anyone can design a bad bike. That doesn't prove knowledge, just that you had enough time and perseverence to do so.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

Given that I currently work as a non enginering analyst no. But you can buy me those too.

A non-engineering analyst. Nice. A pundit. A commentator.

Unfortunately, I can't "buy" you the ability to solve equations of motion, it's a math thing. If that's too much trouble, just get on a basic cad (I know they make them for free for macs, google it). And just throw some quick random numbers in there, you know, like the other guys did. If you actually did that, you would see what I mean..

 

[norbar]

A non-engineering analyst. Nice. A pundit. A commentator.

Unfortunately, I can't "buy" you the ability to solve equations of motion, it's a math thing. If that's too much trouble, just get on a basic cad (I know they make them for free for macs, google it). And just throw some quick random numbers in there, you know, like the other guys did. If you actually did that, you would see what I mean..

So the moment I stop working as an engineer my knowledge evaporates? Damn. I hope I will never be unemployed since then I will know nothing.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

"basic" which means reasonably accurate aproximation. This has been stated.

As for practice again. Designing a bike no one rode (RC doesn't count ) doesn't mean you have practice in designing good bikes. Just bikes. Again. Anyone can design a bad bike. That doesn't prove knowledge, just that you had enough time and perseverence to do so.

Again, you seem to think,I did this in a vacuum. I've been in the bike industry a LONG time. I know a lot of people, some very technical people, some very good riders. World champions. None of which are in the habit of bullshitting me. Just because you and a handful of monkeys have not ridden this bike is not really representative of all people.

How about that wager?

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

So the moment I stop working as an engineer my knowledge evaporates? Damn. I hope I will never be unemployed since then I will know nothing.

maybe your mindset is just not that well suited to engineering...I have no idea why you chose what you chose, but ya, use it or lose it. It's true of just about everything in life.

 

[kidwoo]

And he was also quite open about a lot of his design while also truly explaining why it works instead pretending to be the Trump of Kinematics and claiming "I have the best design, the benefits are huge"

You've got a short memory.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

To be honest I was already HORRIFIED when I saw the hideous bike you designed, you already owe me a bunch of money for all the therapist visits I've had to book in.

You think hiring a good engineer is expensive, these psychiatrists are ridiculous!

How 'bout that wager, uDI. Not scared are you? I'm sure not.