Shimano Saints VS Avid Codes...your choice?
- Thread starter El Diablo
- Start date
After a few years with Shimano brakes, and a few months with Avid Juicy Carbons, I'm not going to be buying Avid again. The need for an entire bleed kit, rather than just a bottle of mineral oil, and the fact that every person I've ever talked to has said the Avids are pain in the ass to bleed, will have me buying some Saint or XT brakes in the near future.
Honestly, I can't control the power of the Juicy's, and if the Codes are more powerful, I'd never want to deal with them. The Shimanos have always been a great brake, cheap and easy to work on, with replacement parts available everywhere I've needed them, on two separate continents.
Honestly, I can't control the power of the Juicy's, and if the Codes are more powerful, I'd never want to deal with them. The Shimanos have always been a great brake, cheap and easy to work on, with replacement parts available everywhere I've needed them, on two separate continents.
Go with the avids, if you know how to do it a bleed takes literaly 5 minuts, with vurtualy no mess and it ALWAYS works. The bleed kit is realy nice. Avids are ganna have more power and better modulation, and they have the pad adjustment.
i have had shimanos, and now i got some avids, and now im deciding wether to go back to shimanos. im not sure yet though.
if i was in the place you are though where you have neither, i'd go with the shimanos. your welcome.
if i was in the place you are though where you have neither, i'd go with the shimanos. your welcome.
I've owned xt four pots (but not saints, although I have ridden them many times) and just got a set of codes. The shimano levers tend to get sloppy, something I do not expect with the beefy code levers. The codes have more power and good range - call it modulation if you want - and for me that translates to more control and confidence. I feel better staying off the brakes longer, knowing that I can shut it down VERY quickly without much fuss. I'm 200 lbs, lighter folks tend to think the saints have more than enough power and control. The avid bleed kit works if you actually read and follow it but I have less bleed issues with the shimano system is mineral oil is easier to work with.
i have juicy carbon levers on code calipers and couldnt be happier, ive ridden saint and avid, and i love the feelling of my avid more, both are great choices but i would have to sitck with avid for sure, i just like the feel of them better
either way you wont be dissapointed
either way you wont be dissapointed
anybody that has ever owned saints will tell you they rock, i love mine, have ran hayes mags and 9's, no comparison. just running mineral oil is almost enough, as long as you value your skin
And you get to practice straighten rotors with Avids. The QC is poor.
i've never owned the codes or the saints, but i do have a set of juicy 7's and a set of XT's. i've owned the XT's since '00 and i love them. that being said, the juicy's absolutely slay them in power and modulation. the pad adjust system is the tits to boot...
if the difference between the 2 you are looking at and the 2 i have (i have the little brother to the both sets you are looking at) are on a similar level, i'd definately go with the avids. i'm finding myself able to control myself better and brake later into turns (and general brake using conditions all across the board) and increacing my overall times and confidence...
if the difference between the 2 you are looking at and the 2 i have (i have the little brother to the both sets you are looking at) are on a similar level, i'd definately go with the avids. i'm finding myself able to control myself better and brake later into turns (and general brake using conditions all across the board) and increacing my overall times and confidence...
Saints, mineral oil and easy to bleed.
Don't know about the Saints at all...but my big red clickable dial on my Codes makes setting them up a piece of cake.
And WOW!!
How many of you can possibly respond to a guys question with "I've tried 2 completely different setups from the 2 manufacturers and that's my call" comments?
Yeah, I have Codes with lots of runs in on them and zero runs on the Saints...but at least i contributed.
And WOW!!
How many of you can possibly respond to a guys question with "I've tried 2 completely different setups from the 2 manufacturers and that's my call" comments?
Yeah, I have Codes with lots of runs in on them and zero runs on the Saints...but at least i contributed.
Buy Hopes instead!!!!
the codes are different from the juicys, they have a bit more modulations. just as long as you dont use 8in rotors in the rear.
saints for me, are brakes that work, have good power and dont give much trouble.
but i do prefer the avids juicys, when they work. like others said, bleeding is hit or miss sometimes. i have no idea why. alot of ppl in the asian region have trouble with the seal in the master cylinder dying. maybe its the heat. the dial in the avids is a nice touch, but its also a bitch coz the leaver position changes when it gets hot or cold. where as hopes/shimanos dont have that problem. its almost like the dial is a cover up for a flaw in the design.
saints for me, are brakes that work, have good power and dont give much trouble.
but i do prefer the avids juicys, when they work. like others said, bleeding is hit or miss sometimes. i have no idea why. alot of ppl in the asian region have trouble with the seal in the master cylinder dying. maybe its the heat. the dial in the avids is a nice touch, but its also a bitch coz the leaver position changes when it gets hot or cold. where as hopes/shimanos dont have that problem. its almost like the dial is a cover up for a flaw in the design.
I've owned two different sets of juicy 7's and currently run ultimates on one bike and codes on another, and I've never seen this problem. I don't ride in very cold conditions but it is often hot. What you're saying sounds like it could be air in the line but not sure. In any case, the reach adjustment is a great feature and I think it's silly to suggest it's some kind of cover-up.
I've owned both.
I have a set of XT755s on one bike, and Saints on another. Personally I prefer either to the Juicy 5s and 7s that I've owned.
If Shimano would re-release the 4-pots with a post mount caliper they'd be the ultimate.
The levers HAVE gotten sloppy on the 755s, but that is to be expected. I ordered new barrel bushings (the wear part) from Shimano at a whopping $1 or so and they were like new.
I really prefer the newer style lever on the Saints compared to the old style.
I have a set of XT755s on one bike, and Saints on another. Personally I prefer either to the Juicy 5s and 7s that I've owned.
If Shimano would re-release the 4-pots with a post mount caliper they'd be the ultimate.
The levers HAVE gotten sloppy on the 755s, but that is to be expected. I ordered new barrel bushings (the wear part) from Shimano at a whopping $1 or so and they were like new.
I really prefer the newer style lever on the Saints compared to the old style.
FYI...Codes have the reach adjuster screw on the OUTSIDE of the lever blade now, rather than the inside, so it's much easier to get to with a 2mm allen...rather than half ass wedging the allen between lever and handlebar. Thoughtful touch.
Yep exactly (and its a 2.5mm allen, same as the rebound adjuster
)
whoops about the size. I just always remember it's the tiny one.Yep exactly (and its a 2.5mm allen, same as the rebound adjuster
rebound adjuster?
Yea if you have a rock shox boxxer fork, you can take the rebound adjuster out and use it as a 2.5mm allen wrench for Juicy Ultimates / Code lever reach and a variety of other things.whoops about the size. I just always remember it's the tiny one.
rebound adjuster?
so is it just air in my lines that makes my juicy 7's pump up when halfway through a trail??
I have 2 sets of juicy's and shimano on the ht and enduro. The juicy's have much better modulation and power. The saint is a no nonsense brake though. Cheap and it does its job well. If it were up to me I'd take 7's over code's and saints. I had a love hate relationship with my M4's when I used them. So I dont buy hopes any more.
of course i didn't mean that avid have the reach adjuster to cover up a problem with their brakes. its a neat feature.
i live right next to the equator, so it get pretty hot there. mainly after you leave it in a car in the sun for a while. also on cold days, it works fine for a run, by the time you push up for the next the lever position changes after it cools down. it could be air, but it happens with all my friends who have juicys. even if the brakes are rock solid...
so seeing that you can 'adjust' your leaver position on any brakes, just take off the wheel and pump the brakes a few times till the pistons are where you want them, then what do you know.. it engages earlier. and with other brakes they would just stay that way regardless of temperature.
just giving my .02, i find that no one has the seals problem here in england so thats my reasoning for weather. they are great brakes, dont get me wrong. it just that when they give any sort of trouble they are harder to work with then hopes. hopes are just straight forward brakes that are easy to understand and work with.
back to the thread. i would also agree that go that what ever you think would be better for you, be it cheaper lighter or better looking. another thing i might add is that avids have the pivot for the lever closer to the bar then ather brakes, which give a nice feel. shimano have the 'knife edge' leavers that some ppl dont like.
could be air if your brakes are squishy, also could be old brake fluid. with water in it. bleed/flush out the system.
of course i didn't mean that avid have the reach adjuster to cover up a problem with their brakes. its a neat feature.
i live right next to the equator, so it get pretty hot there. mainly after you leave it in a car in the sun for a while. also on cold days, it works fine for a run, by the time you push up for the next the lever position changes after it cools down. it could be air, but it happens with all my friends who have juicys. even if the brakes are rock solid...
so seeing that you can 'adjust' your leaver position on any brakes, just take off the wheel and pump the brakes a few times till the pistons are where you want them, then what do you know.. it engages earlier. and with other brakes they would just stay that way regardless of temperature.
just giving my .02, i find that no one has the seals problem here in england so thats my reasoning for weather. they are great brakes, dont get me wrong. it just that when they give any sort of trouble they are harder to work with then hopes. hopes are just straight forward brakes that are easy to understand and work with.
back to the thread. i would also agree that go that what ever you think would be better for you, be it cheaper lighter or better looking. another thing i might add is that avids have the pivot for the lever closer to the bar then ather brakes, which give a nice feel. shimano have the 'knife edge' leavers that some ppl dont like.
I think you and I have the same issue with Avid brakes, assuming when you say "lever position", you mean pad contact point.
I like very instant pad contact, and I can't seem to get enough fluid into the system once the pads are 1/2 way worn down to facilitate this preference. New pads + fresh bleed = instant contact....no problem. The bleed instructions say to dial the pad contact knob all the way "out" before bleeding which means the pad contact point is all the way "out". This doesn't make sense, since you have no more adjustment left "outward" when the pad wears down to re-gain instant pad contact.
The pistons retract the same distance no matter how much your pads are worn. So, after a few rides the pads wear down, making the distance the pad has to travel to hit the rotor, farther. This leaves a space in the system, aka squishy lever feel.
I have gone as far as inventing my own faster "half bleed" to keep the system filled with fluid and the pads closer to the rotor.
1. take the wheel out
2. pump the brake until the pads are closer together.
3. attach syringe to caliper, add fluid.
4. wheel back in
This gives me instant pad contact for a few rides, but I'm really looking for a system that is TRULY self adjusting to pad wear. The new XT brakes are employing a feature called "servo wave" which is a different spin on pad contact adjustment. I will likely try these out to see if they work any better than Avid or Hayes.
Double post.
Now you talkin, tons of power, great modulation, ligh, reliable, easy to work on, and great service, the only negative is the price.
Go formula and don't look back
They both work well. I've got shimanos on 4 bikes and just got a pair of juicy 5s on another because they were cheap.
If it were a decision, I personally would go shimanos......which I did when I retired all my old hayes brakes. They're both good, strong brakes with a slightly different lever feel. None of my shimanos have ever developed lever slop and I've hit them hard enough to bend the levers (which never broke, I just bent them back).
I don't like the avid bleed system at all. It's not like it's torture but it's definitely more of a hassle than the shimanos. And a BIG reason I'm staying with the shimanos is I'm sick and tired of DOT fluid. It has a defined shelf life and regardless of how careful you are, some of that sh1t ends up on the floor or on you. With mineral oil.....meh....soap and water.
edit: I did get a short run on a buddy's bike with some codes........they felt like brakes. Then again I'm not as big as someone like OGripper who would be more likely to see the difference.
If it were a decision, I personally would go shimanos......which I did when I retired all my old hayes brakes. They're both good, strong brakes with a slightly different lever feel. None of my shimanos have ever developed lever slop and I've hit them hard enough to bend the levers (which never broke, I just bent them back).
I don't like the avid bleed system at all. It's not like it's torture but it's definitely more of a hassle than the shimanos. And a BIG reason I'm staying with the shimanos is I'm sick and tired of DOT fluid. It has a defined shelf life and regardless of how careful you are, some of that sh1t ends up on the floor or on you. With mineral oil.....meh....soap and water.
edit: I did get a short run on a buddy's bike with some codes........they felt like brakes. Then again I'm not as big as someone like OGripper who would be more likely to see the difference.
I hate to say it, but your preference is wrong - and that's why you'll find that NO brake works in the way you mention.
My suggestion is that you try to adapt to having some lever travel before engagement - as it means better clearance for expansion/warping/debris and also far more power; due to the amount of torque your finger/knuckle can generate as it gets closer to being clenched.
I was talking to a buddy the other day, he had just finished reading a UK MTB magazine article where they tested brakes for torque and boiling temps. They literally ran them until the rotors glowed red. This was his advice from the article;
In terms of torque output the best were Hayes 9, followed by Formula, followed by Avid, followed by Shimano followed by Hope. The difference in output was considerable. Interestingly the Avid Juicy Ultimates put out similar torque levels as the Codes (!!!) I was shocked to hear that. I was also shocked to hear the Hopes performed worst in this test.
In terms of boiling point for the fluids, my recollection was that the Formulas performed best, with Avids way down the list. Remembering these brakes were abused well beyond what normal riding would do.
I run Saint calipers with Deore levers on both my trail and DH bikes. I never have to bleed them. They are consistent beyond belief. My friend runs juicy 7s and I like how they feel except I dont like the lever shape/pivot.
If I was buying brakes now I would probably be looking hard at Avid Juicy Ultimates for my DH and Trail. Light and powerful.
Someone on here posted a while back that the only reason they make "DH brake" like the code is because the market (ie Us) wants to differentiate and doesnt want to put an 'xc' brake on a 'dh' bike. It would seem they were correct.
I'll try and find out where that article is and post.
In terms of torque output the best were Hayes 9, followed by Formula, followed by Avid, followed by Shimano followed by Hope. The difference in output was considerable. Interestingly the Avid Juicy Ultimates put out similar torque levels as the Codes (!!!) I was shocked to hear that. I was also shocked to hear the Hopes performed worst in this test.
In terms of boiling point for the fluids, my recollection was that the Formulas performed best, with Avids way down the list. Remembering these brakes were abused well beyond what normal riding would do.
I run Saint calipers with Deore levers on both my trail and DH bikes. I never have to bleed them. They are consistent beyond belief. My friend runs juicy 7s and I like how they feel except I dont like the lever shape/pivot.
If I was buying brakes now I would probably be looking hard at Avid Juicy Ultimates for my DH and Trail. Light and powerful.
Someone on here posted a while back that the only reason they make "DH brake" like the code is because the market (ie Us) wants to differentiate and doesnt want to put an 'xc' brake on a 'dh' bike. It would seem they were correct.
I'll try and find out where that article is and post.
That's like testing five cars and gauging their performance at red line,barely relevant for a test on how they drive and perform.
Interesting though.
Interesting though.
Personal issue.
Personally, avid juicy's for the money, weight and price.
I just scored a set of new 5 on ebay for $150. My set of 7s has worked flawlessly for 2 seasons of whistler beatings.
The saints are powerful, but a bit to mushy for me. They also seem to be higher maintenance.
Personally, avid juicy's for the money, weight and price.
I just scored a set of new 5 on ebay for $150. My set of 7s has worked flawlessly for 2 seasons of whistler beatings.
The saints are powerful, but a bit to mushy for me. They also seem to be higher maintenance.
Well, perhaps. Boiling point would more relevant to people spending a day in the alps so yes its not really relevant to most people. The amount of torque however is relevant to everyone.
The magazine is What MTB. A brief look at the their website didn't show anything up.
Like what?
I've got a pair of xts on one of my bikes I haven't touched in over a year and a half other than bending a lever back.
My xtrs on my xc bike which were the brakes that got me all gung ho on shimano have been bled once since 2003. And I only bled them because it seemed like I should bleed them after 2 years.
Saints are pretty much the same brake so what about them is high maintenance?
Don't worry Kidwoo I got more days on my pair of 2 yr old Saints this spring, then Buildyourown's got on his 2 yr old Juicys total, and yeah mine are clacked out compared to his.
interesting, i find this to be the exact opposite. my saints a most powerful. and every avid i've felt were too mushy. mostly just don't care for the lever feel of avids. and enjoy my straitline levers even more so.
i just sold 3 sets of my Hope brakes, DH4, Mini, and Mono 6pot Ti.
to buy 3 new sets of saints.
That was actually an honest question.
I'm curious as to what high maintenance means because I haven't had to do jack sh1t to any of my shimanos. That's a big reason I'm happy with them.