Should transgendered athletes be allowed to compete in women's races?
- Thread starter Ridemonkey
- Start date
Would about transgendered female-to-male competing in men's races? 
I think it depends on how much the hormones are affected.
Not being an expert on the meds taken for this, I can't say.
I think it depends on how much the hormones are affected.
Not being an expert on the meds taken for this, I can't say.
If you have a Y chromsome, you're a man for competition purposes, as far as I'm concerned.
No. I think the advantages of size, weight, agression and early childhood developement can never be eliminated. Ball or no balls... 
No. Men are born with a different muscular and skeletal makeup than women. No sex change operation can change that.
Yes, but hormones can affect your body completely.
Remember. "Bob had bitch tits."
Stolen from another thread.
Hormones can affect muscle mass and bone structure?
EDIT: I guess Mocha touched on that.
I still vote a resounding NO.
This is what it comes to... genetically what you are... male or female...
not no but hell no! when i was in college i had a single dorm room. i paid extra but did not have a room mate. i lived on a hall that was technically for people that had special needs oin a living situation for health problems or add. no one that lived on my hall had any problems except for me everyone just paid the extra amount for the single room. then one fall they tried to give my room away to a girl that had recently had a change to male operation and was on the whole hormone thing. they did not know where to house her, with the males, which she wanted to be or with the females which she really was. they were classifying her as having a special health need. an elective sex change aint special nothing. she still does not have a man peice so make her live with the girls. as for her, make her race with the men. its not like she has a woman peice. sex changes piss me off. just the idea of being able to have one annoys me.
Been thinking about it a lot lately, eh?
I agree wtih biggins on this one! you were born a certain way, and with all the allowances towards sexual preference these days, I see no reason why you should have a need to surgically alter what you were born with....eesh.
For now people are like storybooks, once the the inside is written and a cover is applied, that's it done. If you recover the book the story inside doesn't change, same story book it only looks different. Now if you go and change the story, that is a totally different storybook. We can now affect the human cover but still cannot change the genetic story. This is the story that tells mass, size, leverage...............physical addaptablity..............aggression...............and and on and on. You can influence/modify the apperance and the social traits of a human with drugs, hormones and surgery affectivly changing the cover but the genetic story cannot be alltered at that level. Seems if we could do that there would be a whole new person created and the original would cease to exist. No no no no, once your story is written that is what you are, done deal! If a sport has to be divided because there is a measurable performance difference or safety risk when mixing male and female atheletes then the story life gave you is the one life entended for you to compete with, period.
There is a huge difference between being transgendered and being transsexual. A person's SEX is whether or not they are male or female. Western society allows for only two sexes (eg. two chromosonal variants XX and XY) in actual fact, biologicaly, four chromosonal variants exist -XX, XY, XXY, XYY.
GENDER is attached to a persons sex...how masculine or feminine a person is. This is something that is culturally and socially ascribed. How masculine or feminine someone is considered to be has everything to do with time, place, society etc. This is how we are conditioned to believe things like 'men are strong', 'men don't cry', 'women are weak', 'women are nurturing' etc etc.
Gender and sex are two very different things and it bugs the **** out of me that even Michelle doesn't seem to understand the difference!
Having said that though, as a transSEXUAL, I think she has every right to race.
GENDER is attached to a persons sex...how masculine or feminine a person is. This is something that is culturally and socially ascribed. How masculine or feminine someone is considered to be has everything to do with time, place, society etc. This is how we are conditioned to believe things like 'men are strong', 'men don't cry', 'women are weak', 'women are nurturing' etc etc.
Gender and sex are two very different things and it bugs the **** out of me that even Michelle doesn't seem to understand the difference!
Having said that though, as a transSEXUAL, I think she has every right to race.
When a person is born, if they have the tools of a male, they're a boy, if they have the tools of a female, they're a girl. It's that simple. Don't give me no crap about some scientific discovery trying to justify anything otherwise. Just because someone decides to use medical technology to fulfill their warped sense of that reality, oh yes, and gets a new birth certificate too doesn't change anything.
I appreciate this statement, because it appears that pch is educated about the issues, particularly the science. My GF has a background in biology and genetic research, and she is also a competitive runner (and getting pretty damn good at mtb'ing, too!). We had a lengthy discussion about the issue, and she brought up several very important points as to why transsexuals should not be able to race. Yes, while they may loose muscle mass and gain fat, but they still have the basic musclo-skeletal (sp?) frame as a man.
While most of us mere mortals could routinely be beaten by the opposite sex in a competitive event, for elite athletes, men will typically be better than women; that's why we have categories for both sexes. Therefore, I believe that transsexual male-to-female competitors should not be allowed at the pro level.
To respond to whether transsexual female-to-male competitors should be allowed, my guess is they might be caught for doping, as the steroids they consume would probably be over the "natural" levels found in most men.
Last year's winner of one of the amateur women's races was a man. I guess (s)he changed a few years ago.
I don't think it's fair but on the other hand, if they want to compete where do they go? Someone told me they allow it in the amateur ranks but sex-changed pros aren't UCI legal.
I don't think it's fair but on the other hand, if they want to compete where do they go? Someone told me they allow it in the amateur ranks but sex-changed pros aren't UCI legal.
I don't think it's fair but on the other hand, if they want to compete where do they go? [/B][/QUOTE]They should have tought of that before they altered themselves.
LMAO!!!!!Originally posted by Silver
Been thinking about it a lot lately, eh?
Be nice to think that everyone fits into a perfect predetermined mold mentally/physically/emotionaly/idealogically but the real world isn't so cut and dry (no transgender pun intended!).
What do you do with folks born with mixed equiptment, It happens -crack a book Cleatus and Billy-ray if you've never heard of such a thing. It's certainly not their fault and a gender choice is usually made for them by a doctor on the spot alone or with parental concent.
With a resounding I don't know what should be done competion wise:
1) Everyone should have the choice to live life the way they want to if no else is getting hurt along the way, if the Transgender thing bothers anyone fundamentally it's their issue, not Michelles.
2) If it was a Female to male transgender winning I think it'd be pretty quiet - too embaassing for the men to make a big deal over.
3) I think no matter how much the hormone therapy changes the human body an athleate starting out as male at this time will have a competitive adavantage physcially/mentally/culturally over the majority of female athleates.
4) Everyone no matter who they are should be able to race and measure themselves against others competitively if they choose.
So I think she should be allowed to race and at the same time I don't think its a level field for the other women.
So what do you do? Change the female pro class to be defined by a cromosonal blood test? Then change the mens Pro to open class (gender unrestricted).
I dunno, glad it's not my call but I support her right to compeate.
What do you do with folks born with mixed equiptment, It happens -crack a book Cleatus and Billy-ray if you've never heard of such a thing. It's certainly not their fault and a gender choice is usually made for them by a doctor on the spot alone or with parental concent.
With a resounding I don't know what should be done competion wise:
1) Everyone should have the choice to live life the way they want to if no else is getting hurt along the way, if the Transgender thing bothers anyone fundamentally it's their issue, not Michelles.
2) If it was a Female to male transgender winning I think it'd be pretty quiet - too embaassing for the men to make a big deal over.
3) I think no matter how much the hormone therapy changes the human body an athleate starting out as male at this time will have a competitive adavantage physcially/mentally/culturally over the majority of female athleates.
4) Everyone no matter who they are should be able to race and measure themselves against others competitively if they choose.
So I think she should be allowed to race and at the same time I don't think its a level field for the other women.
So what do you do? Change the female pro class to be defined by a cromosonal blood test? Then change the mens Pro to open class (gender unrestricted).
I dunno, glad it's not my call but I support her right to compeate.
Can we first assess why we have the need to seperate the competition into groups? We as a society decided and allowed the seperation of men and female in athletics (among other things but we are talking about comptetion) We decided that generaly a female is not the same, competively, as a male. Why else would we seperate them?
I know women that can blow me away on a MTB so it would seem there are different levels that a male and female can compete at.
Transgendered or not. He is a he.....hormones and hackjob not withstanding. With the treatments he may more closely resemble a female in emotions, body fat, less facial stuble
but he is still male....from the get go. I fully support their life style outside of racing....go for it Mr/Mrs transgender. But race where you fit, and that my friend is not something hormones and surgery can completely alter.
If this were to be a big issue, I say do away with gender seperation all together. Why have it if one can switch? Make the racers compete by performance standards of everyone not just their given or selected gender.
I know women that can blow me away on a MTB so it would seem there are different levels that a male and female can compete at.
Transgendered or not. He is a he.....hormones and hackjob not withstanding. With the treatments he may more closely resemble a female in emotions, body fat, less facial stuble
but he is still male....from the get go. I fully support their life style outside of racing....go for it Mr/Mrs transgender. But race where you fit, and that my friend is not something hormones and surgery can completely alter.If this were to be a big issue, I say do away with gender seperation all together. Why have it if one can switch? Make the racers compete by performance standards of everyone not just their given or selected gender.
You can take massive hormones for 30 years....The INSTANT you decide to take only 1/2 your pills, the body will adjust accordingly; meaning go back to it's original strength, body hair, etc to the degree by which you cut the dose.
Therefore, Michelle very well may be on hormones but if her dose is 3 pills a day and she decides to cut it to 2, she is going to be more 'masculine' than anyone in the womens category.
Can that be regulated? If so, who is going to regulate it?
Therefore, Michelle very well may be on hormones but if her dose is 3 pills a day and she decides to cut it to 2, she is going to be more 'masculine' than anyone in the womens category.
Can that be regulated? If so, who is going to regulate it?
In my mind there is only one fair solution.....Have a transgender class.
I dont think there are that many transgenders to make up a class of their own. I might consider the lop myself if it meant only 2 people competing in a category. Atleast I could then say I came second
Actually no i think ill keep my penis
If your self-realized enough to accept that your a woman in a man's body, why can't you accept being a woman in a man's body with a penis.
sheesh what' the big deal.......... it's JUST mt. bike racing.......
to me this carry's onto more than just a question of fairness or lack therof. this wieghs into a question of tolerance. i think Michelle has been tolerated so far because let's face it Mt. Bike Racing is as popular as Curling to the mainstream. i suppose if there is money involved then of course all bets are off, but c'mon it seems to me that nobody can be set for life by just racing like real sports. So to me until Mt. Bike racing surpasses the popularity of let's say... the Bowling championships i say stop complaing and let's not get into peoples business. To the women who beat her/him good for you! you beat a former/current (whatever your position is) male. if you lose well suck it up, and practice harder.
Just a thought we all know that the Road Bike races have an established popular following, and it seems to me that road bikers are an intolerable stuck up bunch in the most general terms. (excluding any road biker's reading this are of course, you like Ridemonkey you obviously are a superior breed)
I just hate to see groups hinge on the border of intolerance, even in regard to this rare problem/ argument. I think EVERYONE should be able to have fun on a bike, because essestially that's the only thing that's important about our RECREATION.
to me this carry's onto more than just a question of fairness or lack therof. this wieghs into a question of tolerance. i think Michelle has been tolerated so far because let's face it Mt. Bike Racing is as popular as Curling to the mainstream. i suppose if there is money involved then of course all bets are off, but c'mon it seems to me that nobody can be set for life by just racing like real sports. So to me until Mt. Bike racing surpasses the popularity of let's say... the Bowling championships i say stop complaing and let's not get into peoples business. To the women who beat her/him good for you! you beat a former/current (whatever your position is) male. if you lose well suck it up, and practice harder.
Just a thought we all know that the Road Bike races have an established popular following, and it seems to me that road bikers are an intolerable stuck up bunch in the most general terms. (excluding any road biker's reading this are of course, you like Ridemonkey you obviously are a superior breed)
I just hate to see groups hinge on the border of intolerance, even in regard to this rare problem/ argument. I think EVERYONE should be able to have fun on a bike, because essestially that's the only thing that's important about our RECREATION.
Actually, there is money in bowling...much larger than moutain biking. Those nimrods even have a Senior Tour
Can you imagine the huge stinkin controversy if big sweaty fat ole Joe Platowznik came to the PBA tour as a WOMAN!Originally posted by Silver
Actually, there is money in bowling...much larger than moutain biking. Those nimrods even have a Senior Tour
AAAAHHH the worlds comin to an end!!!!!and don't no racer's argue with me here. or i'll just the Danny Wiseman argument.
here's Danny Wiseman.......
looks like a loser huh....
well his career winnings are over 960 grand. Looks like a loser that's winning more at something i find complety stupid than any mt. biker will win. And more than what i will earn from an honest living too.
<I>Wiseman just finished his most recent tattoo: a bowling pin with barbed wire and blood. He also has a tribal design tattoo on his left arm.</I>
You just don't fvck with a guy who has tattoos like that...
You just don't fvck with a guy who has tattoos like that...
AssociatedOriginally posted by Skookum
sheesh what' the big deal.......... it's JUST mt. bike racing.......
to me this carry's onto more than just a question of fairness or lack therof. this wieghs into a question of tolerance. i think Michelle has been tolerated so far because let's face it Mt. Bike Racing is as popular as Curling to the mainstream. i suppose if there is money involved then of course all bets are off, but c'mon it seems to me that nobody can be set for life by just racing like real sports. So to me until Mt. Bike racing surpasses the popularity of let's say... the Bowling championships i say stop complaing and let's not get into peoples business. To the women who beat her/him good for you! you beat a former/current (whatever your position is) male. if you lose well suck it up, and practice harder.
Just a thought we all know that the Road Bike races have an established popular following, and it seems to me that road bikers are an intolerable stuck up bunch in the most general terms. (excluding any road biker's reading this are of course, you like Ridemonkey you obviously are a superior breed)
I just hate to see groups hinge on the border of intolerance, even in regard to this rare problem/ argument. I think EVERYONE should be able to have fun on a bike, because essestially that's the only thing that's important about our RECREATION.
Press:And with that Skookum has announced he will be competeing in the female beginner XC class in the WIM series this year. For fear of being intolerant, WIM officials see "nothing wrong with it"
Later that year:
When Skookum was asked about his dominence so far this season....leaving all the beginner woman in his dust. His response was "Suck it up, and practice harder."
Yup and after i conquer the womens beginner class, you can watch for me on the women's PBA tour. I'm gonna rake in the dough!Originally posted by RhinofromWA
Associated
And with that Skookum has announced he will be competeing in the female beginner XC class in the WIM series this year. For fear of being intolerant, WIM officials see "nothing wrong with it"
Later that year:
When Skookum was asked about his dominence so far this season....leaving all the beginner woman in his dust. His response was "Suck it up, and practice harder."
LOL!Originally posted by Skookum
Yup and after i conquer the womens beginner class, you can watch for me on the women's PBA tour. I'm gonna rake in the dough!
I suck at golf.
no
why dont they just start a giant transgendered sports league for all aspects of competative sports, then they wouldnt have to worry about it!
they could just have the transgendered olympics, just like the have the special olympics.
-J
they could just have the transgendered olympics, just like the have the special olympics.
-J
I completley agree.
Yes, No, Maybe. Jeez, too many choices. I was sure it was ok for a moment. Then I wondered what it would be like to have some woman transgender, enter a race in my class and then beat my sorry butt. And I thought Hell no, she don't go. But upon further reflection, I realized that it did not matter. The women don't have to transgender to kick my butt, they do a fine job equipped with original equipment.
So I guess, I just don't care.
So I guess, I just don't care.
How many TG racers are there though? One? As i see it it would be unfair to kick he/she out as they wouldnt be able to race, and with all the equal right stuff is it fair? I bet that Michelle would much rather that she didnt have that transgender condition, life would have been far easier.
But then again it isnt fair to the girls that race.
So i voted maybe.
I'd like to hear a female racers point of view on this.
But then again it isnt fair to the girls that race.
So i voted maybe.
I'd like to hear a female racers point of view on this.
It's been difficult to read most of the responses from the community that I relate to/identify with - racers and riders. The majority of the responses have been full of ignorance and sexism (with the exception of a few.) One definitely needs a liberal view to understand the situation. There is nothing wrong with having a surgical change, you and I can never fathom the experience transgendered / transexual people have had to go through. Imagine having to act as the opposite sex that you feel you are, dress like a man/woman, have different mannersims, etc... It's something out of our realm of thinking. I guess that isn't the point...the question was whether transgendered folks should be able to race in women's races. Yes, they should. With the hormonal change there is no longer the testosterone that we equate with having guts to do more physcially and mentally. Bodies change, minds change...there is a blurring of the lines. I think we have to think of it as more of a fluid matter, there is more than biological man/woman. Remember that famous Virginia Slims woman from the ads back in the late 80's early 90's. Yeah, that was a biological man. Makes you think...sorry this strayed away from the question...but it seems like it went that way in most responses.
I think if this person is going to race their bike, then they need to find a group that puts on races for people of that gender. Until the UCI, Canada Cup, NCS, etc gets a he/she class its a no brainer. There is a rumor going around the circuit that this trans-whatever threatened a lawsuit if they were not allowed to race-so they caved in and allowed it...does anyone know if this is true?
Stikman
www.stiksandstones.com
www.dirtmag.co.uk
Stikman
www.stiksandstones.com
www.dirtmag.co.uk
Make them race in the men's class. Gimme a break. The current one couldn't even do well in a men's expert race, yet is top 10 women's pro.
Get a grip. Hormones etc do NOT chance bone structure, men have a huge kinetic advantage leverage wise etc.
90% of the female racers I have talked to were PISSED about this 'tard with her camera crew etc knocking them out of their rightful spots in the results list. I can't say that I blame them.
Get a grip. Hormones etc do NOT chance bone structure, men have a huge kinetic advantage leverage wise etc.
90% of the female racers I have talked to were PISSED about this 'tard with her camera crew etc knocking them out of their rightful spots in the results list. I can't say that I blame them.