sinister 'passion'
- Thread starter xy9ine
- Start date
the 2-step was edited out of existance when i realized the suspension was completely different. the front triangle IS surprisingly simmilar, though.
inclag - i think the red blob above the link is the bumper you refer to...
inclag - i think the red blob above the link is the bumper you refer to...
Well you've got to consider that the more rearward the wheelpath becomes, the more necessary it will be to reroute the chain to reduce pedal feedback. And if the design is intended to be used with a front derailleur, that's not going to be possible... Based upon what I see, I'd say the path is rearward enough considering the bike's intended application.
you must not have read the rest of the thread
yes...
you must not have get that what I wanted to say was that it looked A LOT like a 2step dh (even the headtube's gussets)
isn't dave turner on mtbr quite frequently? i'm sure he hypes up his company there. i don't see anymore hype in advertising than turner. if anything, ads for turner are way more common than ads for sinister.
and you kind of sound like a hypocrite mentioning turner as a company that isn't hyped up all that much when you own 2 of them...
isn't dave turner on mtbr quite frequently? i'm sure he hypes up his company there. i don't see anymore hype in advertising than turner. if anything, ads for turner are way more common than ads for sinister.
and you kind of sound like a hypocrite mentioning turner as a company that isn't hyped up all that much when you own 2 of them...
i've been influenced 10x more to buy a sinister than a turner.
and people are forgetting there's a difference between "hype" and "advertising." i just don't like it when people from the company claim their new bike is far superior to any other bike, even before they have hit production. let the bike speak for itself when it makes it to the trails, don't try to convince me it's going to be better than another proven design/frame that has been out in the real world for years, when there has been a handful of prototypes out there, that only the insiders have ridden.
flame away.
i think where the design would work badly is if it had too much rearward 'float'; i think its more about just having enough 'give'.
now what happens if the area happens to include patented wheelpaths?
i doubt the 2 Step is even on their radar, especially considering that bike was such a disaster. Kinda of a pointless comparison, they really are nothing alike and that shock placement sorta demands the layout.
Ok I'm gonna put forward a theory here - you can't truly have a 2 degree of freedom (5-bar) linkage that works only off a single degree of freedom shock (ie a single shock). The reason for this is that at any instantaneous point in the travel, where a given movement vector at the axle induces the greatest amount of compression of the shock, a movement of the axle at 90 degrees to this direction (effectively "principal axes" stuff here) will result in zero compression or extension of the shock (free play in other words). Having a bumper to restrict this seems to defeat the point anyway, does it not?
Also, you simply cannot optimise pedalling characteristics for any 2-DOF layout, because you have no way to properly constrain the axle movement with respect to the resultant (chain tension + tractive) force at the axle. One way or the other, the bike can't do (at least) ONE of the things it claims to (provide exceptional pedalling firmness or have a true 2-DOF system with an axle "area". Not meaning to beat down on FTW or the bike, but yeah... no.
Also, you simply cannot optimise pedalling characteristics for any 2-DOF layout, because you have no way to properly constrain the axle movement with respect to the resultant (chain tension + tractive) force at the axle. One way or the other, the bike can't do (at least) ONE of the things it claims to (provide exceptional pedalling firmness or have a true 2-DOF system with an axle "area". Not meaning to beat down on FTW or the bike, but yeah... no.
Here is another picture of the passion on their blog
Looks like a Fusion "float-link" suspension design
http://www.fusionbikes.com/
shock is pushed from both sides thru a linkage
http://www.fusionbikes.com/
shock is pushed from both sides thru a linkage
sick trail bike
first part: total fiction in this case, not sure how else to put it. Under that premise you would pick up the bike and the wheel would just flop around. And no sense in disproving it, the bike is actually being ridden (dont feel bad, my first words were 'this thing cannot work!' too, until i bent my head around it
). The system is fully constrained, although you could design a (useless) 5 bar that wasent behaving as you say, but it would have some kind of symetry to it. It's sorta like how some 4 bars (like the VPP) has an ambigous point in the travel (before top-out) where the swingarm wants to reverse direction; the system works within limits, beyond that the geometry falls apart.second part: you could i believe, depending on design. Foward acceleration could effectively lockout that bottom link; conversely the opposite force would activate it.
As you can see VST is a little different than the Fusion design, one thing not in the above drawing is the mechanical stop for the lower rocker. I'm not sure where FTW put the stop on the model at the show but the stop is usually between the shock link and chainstay pivot and rests against the BB shell at sag height. Early protos had adjustable stops so we could play with the linkage geometry a little bit...
Fusion are so much better
Thanks for that insightful post, poncho. 
is not insightful , it's a Fusion patent by 5 yearsThanks for that insightful post, poncho.
It's neither insigtful, nor does the patent (if they hold one) have any validity in North America.
Next time you decide to post that something is "so much better", you should probably have a little facts to back it up. ie: fusion is better due to having better welds, better craftsmanship in general and superior frame materials etc. This would have made sense.
Of course, FTW welds are second to none, even if you hate his bikes. Try it next time, facts are fun!
i don't hate this bike, but fusion have a better wheel patch and the still mantain a lower center of gravity
plus they are working on this sistem by 5 years, tuning it year after year, you may don't know Fusion bikes, but here in Europe tell why a Fusion is better make no sense, everybody know it!
plus they are working on this sistem by 5 years, tuning it year after year, you may don't know Fusion bikes, but here in Europe tell why a Fusion is better make no sense, everybody know it!
ok then. you sure told me!
my english suck, i can't tell you why i like Fusion better, i never try this Sinister but i rode many Fusion, i'm shore that you haven't try both bikes so don't feel so cool man, every country have their own legends, listen to other people may help to know other stuff and to saw the same think by other point of viewok then. you sure told me!
except for the fact that the design is totally different. it just looks similar because of the way the shock is positioned. and technically i believe your beloved fusion is in violation of the fsr patent because of the chainstay pivot...
The only difference between hype and advertising is how much it costs. Other then that, same poop different smell.
Ähhh, nö :biggrin:
Fusion make great bikes, but I did not rode the Sinister. So I can not say which is better.
The Fusion has the same wheelpath like every FSR. It just have different shock links which make it to a great pedalling bike.
my english sucks too
but I don't care :biggrin:
tel me what change..it's the same idea realized in a different way
Fusion are not violating the pay on the past years, now the horst link (fsr it's another think dude) can be used cose there is no more patent
yes and is more vertical than this Sinister here
not really. the sinister has another link which allows the wheel to also have a rearward path. not to mention there is no "set" wheelpath on the sinister unlike the fusion, which follows a set wheelpath. just because the shock is driven in a similar way does not make the design a knock off. with that train of thought, the turner rfx and six pack have the same suspension design...
I know a few guys who have Fusions here in the US.... one keeps breaking swing arms. 2 in 2 years, and he is not a hack rider and does not go huge...
Well, all I can say is both of your english is better than my german. It wasn't a language barrier issue.
Every bike can break. This say nothing.
Here in Germany are many Fusion owners and they are all happy.
Here in Germany are many Fusion owners and they are all happy.
i'm the Italian distributor of Fusion bikes, i do'nt care to promote Fusion in the US but i know them really well
we sell hundred of them and we have only one broken bike (a trail bike, Raid SL)
Guido Tschugg made the distric ride with the All-Mountain bike, a bike that is not made to go big, but he never broke one
and i can ensure you that he go very big!
http://www.nsmb.com/images/shore_news/distride/guido2.jpg
i'm not here to tell you that you have to buy one but i can honestly tell you that i find the Fusion smarter than this bike...
i love canedian bike too (PDC Rocks!) but forum is made to talk each other and this is just my opinion
Horst links don't have even close to a vertical wheelpath... Not that a vertical wheelpath is particularly desirable anyway.
i didn't say "vertical" i say "more vertical" a totaly vertical wheelpath is not desiderable ok, but a to regressive path worst on my opinion, to mush chaingrow, and it is slower on the square hit bump
i'm the Italian distributor of Fusion bikes, i do'nt care to promote Fusion in the US but i know them really well
we sell hundred of them and we have only one broken bike (a trail bike, Raid SL)
Guido Tschugg made the distric ride with the All-Mountain bike, a bike that is not made to go big, but he never broke one
and i can ensure you that he go very big!
http://www.nsmb.com/images/shore_news/distride/guido2.jpg
i'm not here to tell you that you have to buy one but i can honestly tell you that i find the Fusion smarter than this bike...
i love canedian bike too (PDC Rocks!) but forum is made to talk each other and this is just my opinion
SO in other words, you are argueing for a bike that gives you your living, while trashing a bike that you've never ridden, or one thats even been produced? Thats weak man, and completely unprofessional. I don't care if your little bikes don't break, especially if they ride like ass. Why not comment intelligently and Honestly (hard for distributors, I know) about the bike instead?
To all the rest, I find it funny that again everybody knows everything there is to know about the bike, despite not seeing it, much less riding it. Again, I don't know why bike companies bother making anything, they should just ask here. I'm sure thats why all of you (cept DW) are making so much money hand over fist with your perfected suspension designs.
Ya know, I wish more companies were like Kona. I know that the crew of e-engineer pivot nerds will bash them for days, cause of course they don't use the latest in ultra-hyped marketing bullcrap suspension system, but they are exactly what they claim. They';re fun, a good deal, and do the job they were intended to do. Hey what do you know, a company that doesn't rely on the latest bull**** hype and goes on Honesty.....Nah, that'll never work. How do they expect to sell any bikes that way?
ok now you are just talking out of your ass. a bike with a more rearward axle path will always perform better on square edged hits than a bike with a forward arcing axle path.
Nice work Frank, 'Passion' looks to me like a bike that a rider could climb up some really steep stuff and then rip some shi7 up on the DH on one of those things.
yes maybe becouse kona make publicity on your website?
You are preety funny, i was honest to tell you that i work with that bike...i'm not unprofessional i'm just honest, and is not my fault if i works with my passion i even work with Straitiline,transition,halo and many other brands, you don't know me and how can you say that my bike ride like ass? never try it? wich one and what you don't like?
I just choose to sell the bikes i love no more.
you are talkin about kona....you say that they don't make hype? what hype i made with fusion? i just talk about a low center of gravity and it is true! kona sell just becouse the have lot of money to pay lot of big riders, and the world is full of wannabe all 2006 kona stinky leverage going to blent
you saw enemy in everywhere, people like this should ride more an talk less, i write on forum for fun, i'm not here to listen your slanders
Kona advertises on my site because i invited them, not the other way around. I advertise for those companies I beleive in, not just somebody that will pay the bills.
I'm jsut saying that being the distributor, just about the last thing you should do is come on a public forum and take shots against a company thats producing a bike that is similar to yours, and claim yours are " smarter than this bike..." or say things like "fusion have a better wheel patch and the still mantain a lower center of gravity " or " Fusion are so much better ." See what I'm saying?
the Professional route would have been to say that Sinister are making a nice looking bike (which at this point, is all anyone can say really), but you might be more interested in the Fusion (which also looks nice) and then present some facts. Or at least the regular company hype.
And for the record, I never said your bikes ride like ass, I said that promoting a bikes durability is pointless if they ride like ass. If all you can gloat about is the fact that they don't break, I'd be worried.
I have a candian tire bike for runs to the beer store, it hasn't broken in 8 years and has had 0 maintenance. (ps - don't try to use the brakes).