[slowitdown]

Very nice lawyer speak.

Thanks for puking on my degree, like I've never had anyone do that to me before. What's next? Should I bust on you for your lame avatar? "Gosh, a dog taking a schitt! That's SO FUNNY!"



Seriously...

Somehow in the middle of that carefully crafted argument you neglected to mention the whole "widespread headtube cracking" issue.

No, I didn't "neglect to mention it," I didn't have a conclusion one way or the other, so I don't see the point of mentioning it.

You're making the mistake of assuming that because other Commencals have cracked at the head tube that ABSOLUTELY means that's what Dude's frame has here -- a regular manufacture or design flaw. None of us who doesn't work for Commencal or its frame builder entity knows whether it's a flaw until it's been inspected by Commencal or its frame builder/tester entity. We can guess, but we can't know.

If Commencal had a contract engineer or frame builder who inspected Dude's frame and concluded it was a design or manufacture defect, I would have mentioned that.

Remind me where that part of the story was related, wouldja? Purty-pleeze?

Case closed my ass.

I don't care about your donkey, Eeyore!

 

[time-bomb]

3) Dude strips paint with undisclosed technique, repaints, rides.

Also because Dude lied about stripping the paint and because there are paint removal techniques that can compromise frame strength -- hence the reason for voiding Warranty unless recoat done by factory or factory-approved recoater.

Did I miss something? When did he lie? I thought he painted over the existing paint and nothing was stripped. Perhaps I missed a post or misread something.

 

[Kanye West]

And I thought my posts were drunken and misguided...

Doesn't mean that the headtube crack is absolutely what his issue is. But because it is a widespread problem, they should be examining it very closely before making any kind of a decision, regardless of what he's done to it, not immediately searching for ways to deny a warranty claim.

 

[slowitdown]

Did I miss something? When did he lie? I thought he painted over the existing paint and nothing was stripped. Perhaps I missed a post or misread something.

you missed a post or misread something. his changing of his story was quoted by someone up the thread. check it out. I know, it's painful to read the whole thread. not everyone is being funny like me and Schitting Dog Avatar Man.

 

[Kanye West]

Schitting Dog Avatar Man.

New custom title right here - mods??

 

[slowitdown]

And I thought my posts were drunken and misguided...

Doesn't mean that the headtube crack is absolutely what his issue is. But because it is a widespread problem, they should be examining it very closely before making any kind of a decision, regardless of what he's done to it, not immediately searching for ways to deny a warranty claim.

I'm not drunk or misguided! I'm just pointing out the gaps in people's logic.

The fact that others have cracked there and been covered under Warrranty definitely SUGGESTS that may be what happened to Dude's frame.

However, one of the reasons Mfrs don't maintain warranty coverage for outside strip-and-paint jobs is because a lot of people can screw up their frame's strength and integrity with inferior paint removal tactics.

It is pretty sketchy that Dude changed his story on stripping the paint -- first saying he stripped and repainted, then later saying he merely painted over the old paint. Which is it? A jury hearing the case could be persuaded Dude is a Big Fat Liar! Wouldn't be hard to do. I wouldn't be the lawyer making that argument, but some Scum-Sucking Lawyer Leech would do it, you betcha!

If I was Commencal I would tell Dude to send me the frame for inspection, then offer him a replacement -- either free or at reduced price, depending on what caused the crack. Free if it was Commencal's design flaw or manufacture glitch, reduced price if it was something Dude did by Just Painting Along.

 

[Inclag]

Recap:

1) Dude buys Commencal frame.

2) Commencal Warranty says void if paint removed and recoated.

3) Dude strips paint with undisclosed technique, repaints, rides.

4) Dude finds crack in frame, seeks warranty coverage.

5) Commencal's distributor says see point (2).

6) Dude complains about (5), ignores (2), comes to Ridemonkey to complain more.

I tend to agree with John P, probably because I'm one of those dudes who has a law degree and has been a member of the bar in 3 different states, and who has worked on a lot of product liability and contract disputes from both sides of the dispute (consumer vs manufacturer).

Also because Dude lied about stripping the paint and because there are paint removal techniques that can compromise frame strength -- hence the reason for voiding Warranty unless recoat done by factory or factory-approved recoater.

Case closed. Dude should lose!

..................

Post-mortem: Commencal could earn "good will" (whatever that is) by giving Dude a new frame or a reduced-cost replacement.

Post-post-mortem: "Good will" is so nebulous as to be forgettable.

Spicoli is that you??

That's quite the assumption that DHPeru lied about the paint stripping. I know that I was the one the pointed out the contradiction, but I also acknowledge that it's not out of the realm of possibility that he may have mixed up his story in the midst of all of it.

Anyway, I think most people here understand both sides of the argument, in favor of DHPeru and Commencal, Hacktastic included. I think what you're failing to grasp is that a number of the people posting in this thread are engineers and people qualified to criticize Commencal for what appears to be a major issue with their manufacturing and validation process.

Much like you view yourself as an authoritative figure with respect to interpreting the law and you feel strongly based on the warranty literature and the circumstances of the events leading up to the frame failure, there are many of us that understand the design, manufacturing, and validation process necessary to build and test structural components. Possibly to a fault we are more focused on what appears to be an egregious error with Commencal's execution of building frames. Based on my knowledge of some of the posters in this thread that are a bit upset with Commencal, I would say it's safe to say that they are all very well aware why stripping paint "could" cause harm to a frame. This they are not ignorant to.

Hopefully everything gets sorted out properly, however that may turn out to be.

 

[dropmachine]

I'm not drunk or misguided! I'm just pointing out the gaps in people's logic.

A lawyer pointing out a gap in logic is like Genghis Khan pointing out flaws in table manners.

You're dealing in absolutes. Its because of thinking like that that we have people winning millions for pouring coffee on themselves in McDonalds. There is more to it here.

IF he didn't strip it, and IF he just laid paint over the existing paint, then its got F A to do with the headtube cracking. Its simply BTI/ Commencal weasling out of a warranty. If I were commencal I'd step up and warranty the damn thing, knowing that customer service is KEY in such a small industry. Word gets around easy. Its bad enough that so many of the bloody bikes crack, the least they could do is man up.

 

[norbar]

This argument is silly because you both don't see a differance between what a company SHOULD do and what it HAS to do. Stripped paint - no warranty, end of story. If they are a company with good cs like turner, banshee or canfield they take care of you, if they don't care it's their problem.

 

[Jason4]

If this was an automobile it would be a very different situation. If someone was so inclined they could lawyer up and defeat this very easily if his story is true about painting over the original paint. The Magnussen-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 changed the way the auto industry treated warranties due to issues like this one. An auto manufacturer cannot deny a warranty claim due to modifications on an unrelated part.

I'll concede that mechanical removal of the paint could have contributed but I have a hard time believing that if he really did just paint over the factory finish it would have any impact on the strength of the frame. Sounds like a strong reaction from a company that isn't really interested in serving their customers to me. Did they ever get the frame for inspection or did they close the door on it before it left the customer's hands?

If you took a rock to the bottom bracket and then wanted to warranty the frame due to a cracked weld at the bottom bracket I'd say tough luck, it's not a manufacturers defect. But if you took the same rock to the BB and then had your head tube crack then it is the mfg's issue to deal with.

 

[slowitdown]

1) Spicoli is that you??

Hell no, my dad didn't repair TVs! He did some other spooky crap.

2) That's quite the assumption that DHPeru lied about the paint stripping.

Sorry you misread me; please read my posts again. I said that's the argument some shady shyster would make. My honest take is that his story changed from post to post. That's weird, but it might be down to being tired, inattentive, or some other carelessness rather than an intent to mislead.

Anyway, I think most people here understand both sides of the argument, in favor of DHPeru and Commencal, Hacktastic included. I think what you're failing to grasp is that a number of the people posting in this thread are engineers and people qualified to criticize Commencal for what appears to be a major issue with their manufacturing and validation process.

I don't ever "think most people understand" anything. I'm a fan of Gregory House, MD -- everybody lies! Most particularly, on the internet, people lie about what they know. I've seen this too often. On the other hand, I don't know if I know personally anyone who posts here, whereas a lot of y'all may know each other. I don't have any way of knowing who knows who. I just know the internet is a hotbed of exaggeration about self. Always has been. It's like Penthouse Forum.

Much like you view yourself as an authoritative figure with respect to interpreting the law and you feel strongly based on the warranty literature and the circumstances of the events leading up to the frame failure, there are many of us that understand the design, manufacturing, and validation process necessary to build and test structural components. Possibly to a fault we are more focused on what appears to be an egregious error with Commencal's execution of building frames. Based on my knowledge of some of the posters in this thread that are a bit upset with Commencal, I would say it's safe to say that they are all very well aware why stripping paint "could" cause harm to a frame. This they are not ignorant to.

"Authoritative" may be overstating it. "Knowledgeable and discerning, and a very picky bastard" is how I would describe myself. I leave "authoritative" to know-it-alls on the internet, and to coppers.

Hopefully everything gets sorted out properly, however that may turn out to be.

yep.

 

[Kanye West]

I think what you're failing to grasp is that a number of the people posting in this thread are engineers and people qualified to criticize Commencal for what appears to be a major issue with their manufacturing and validation process.

I really hope this one is sarcasm...

 

[slowitdown]

A lawyer pointing out a gap in logic is like Genghis Khan pointing out flaws in table manners.

Not really. But I give you points for trying to be funny. The rest of your post was a lot of nonsense, arguing against statements I never made, or ideas I've never held. But nice work on that. You rebutted someone, somewhere, no doubt!

A lawyer pointing out a gap in logic is like an orthopaedic surgeon pointing out a dislocation in a joint, or a fracture in a bone.

And an internet "freeride" journalist talking about what lawyers do and don't know, that's like a prostitute talking about being a virgin.

 

[norbar]

Not really. But I give you points for trying to be funny. The rest of your post was a lot of nonsense, arguing against statements I never made, or ideas I've never held. But nice work on that. You rebutted someone, somewhere, no doubt!

A lawyer pointing out a gap in logic is like an orthopaedic surgeon pointing out a dislocation in a joint, or a fracture in a bone.

And an internet "freeride" journalist talking about what lawyers do and don't know, that's like a prostitute talking about being a virgin.

I kinda tried to defend you but apparently you are too anal for that. Being at anal - can the mentioned lawyer point to a gap between my buttcheeks?


Can someone close this thread?

 

[Pegboy]

Why would anybody buy a bike that they admittedly knew had problems the previous year with cracking...and then jepordize the warranty by painting it? Situation sucks, but if Commencal works with him, it's a gift. It was in writing, and ignorance and morality do not apply.

But, I've been in similar situations and hope they do sort things out in your favor.

 

[slowitdown]

I kinda tried to defend you but apparently you are too anal for that. Being at anal - can the mentioned lawyer point to a gap between my buttcheeks?

Why would you defend me in a thread chock-full of e-speculation?

E-speculation is the engine that runs Ridemonkey! I mean, take a peek at the thread where everyone swears Sam Hill's new Demo at Maribor was carbon because... well, because... well, because... Joe Average Ridemonkey User WANTS it to be carbon!

Sorta like how people in this thread WANT the crack to be a flaw.

My response to "dropmachine.com" was a jab at myself. You didn't get that? So sorry!

 

[Ithnu]

This argument is what a company SHOULD do and what it HAS to do.

Ding! Great way to say it.

 

[dropmachine]

 

[DHperu]

sorry, i never meant to mislead the first post i wrote does say the paint was stripped but i didn't to the painting myself and then learnt it was just ontop... i only paid 50bucks for the paintjob so i wouldn't have expected much labour going into it.

i've found my proof of purchase and have sent the warantee form and pictures to BTI. we've already been through the paint voiding the warantee blablabla, i just in the end hope that they can see through this because it is a faulty product and paint or no paint it would have failed.

i'll let everyone know what goes down in the end...be it getting the warantee, being denied or deciding to weld the frame and see if it holds up.

 

[Ithnu]

And an internet "freeride" journalist talking about what lawyers do and don't know, that's like a prostitute talking about being a virgin.

Aren't all people virgins to start with? So are you suggesting prostitutes aren't people? Everyone needs a job dude.

 

[Kanye West]

So are you suggesting prostitutes aren't people?

Yup.

And neither are lawyers.

 

[norbar]

Why would you defend me in a thread chock-full of e-speculation?

E-speculation is the engine that runs Ridemonkey! I mean, take a peek at the thread where everyone swears Sam Hill's new Demo at Maribor was carbon because... well, because... well, because... Joe Average Ridemonkey User WANTS it to be carbon!

Sorta like how people in this thread WANT the crack to be a flaw.

My response to "dropmachine.com" was a jab at myself. You didn't get that? So sorry!

Man you are trolling and the carbon thread was actualy filled with people saying its not carbon. Seriously lay of the crack because you try to find issues where there are none.

 

[Demomonkey]

The frame was not sandblasted at all, they actually painted ontop of the original paint then i stuck stickers ontop! and for those who have seen a commencal, they use VERY thick tubing, reason for why they are so heavy. I've since sent an email to the Commencal Brand Manager at BTI pleading my case, have my fingers crossed he reconsiders. I really cant afford another 3Grand frame

wish me luck.

I own two commencals and thankfully have not had any issues. Im considering buying a Supreme 6 inch direct from the local distributor here but its brown in colour. The distributor suggested if I didnt like the colour I could re-paint it. After reading this I'm not sure if its the right thing to do. I guess I'll get it writing he'll honour the warranty.

Back to your problem - I work in the insurance profession as a risk advisor. In short, the theory applicable here is 'proximate cause'. If the cracking was in no way related to the paint, common law prohibits a contract of this nature to be voided because of the paint.

This is common law across most if not all of the civilised world. It is however up to you to prove that the cracking did not occur as a result of the paint but this should not be too difficult as 1. commencals have a rep for cracking and have now changed their manufacturer as a result and 2. you have not engaged any chemical process or sandblasted the frame.

I'd suggest a letter from a reputable paint shop along with that letter from a family friend who happens to be a lawyer confirming the loss was not proximate to the paint and put it too them.

Good luck DH Peru

 

[toodles]

To the people who say that he voided the warranty by painting it, it might be worth reading through the small print on some other companies warranties. I know of a couple of manufacturers who specify that the warranty is voided by "stunt riding" (what the hell is that?), "racing" or even "off-road use".

I know in Australia, a manufacturer's warranty conditions are null and void. Warranty conditions are a legal area and a manufacturers warranty can only extend on basic legal protection, not restrict it. This was brought in because of the number of manufacturers using small print in their warranties to avoid being responsible (ie. no warranty card = no warranty etc).

 

[slowitdown]

Aren't all people virgins to start with? So are you suggesting prostitutes aren't people? Everyone needs a job dude.

Where's your Christ? On a freakin' cross? Don't you know about original sin, laddie? In some strains of Christianity, NOBODY is a virgin until they give their dead godless self up to Jayzus. For ever and ever. Thus one becomes "born again" and is new, virginal, and can wear Pam Anderson's wedding dress.

Man you are trolling and the carbon thread was actualy filled with people saying its not carbon. Seriously lay of the crack because you try to find issues where there are none.

I'm guessing Polish-English translation is at the root of your confusion here.

I once sold a fork to a dude in Poland, via eBay. The ways in which he misunderstood my clear explicit terms of sale were astonishing. I don't mean to paint with a broad brush here, but... your quote above shows that you're not getting even half of what I'm saying.

Yup.

And neither are lawyers.

Hey now! Everyone hates a lawyer until he gets sued. Then the lawyer-hating bile-spewer comes groveling in, "dude, I'm sorry about those 4,260,682,169 times I slagged lawyers in your presence. I need help!"

***************

ON-TOPIC:

I think if Dude (dhPeru) gets to deal directly with Commencal and not through an intermediary, things might change. But complaining here on Ridemonkey, with conflicting explanations on the re-paint job, isn't helping his case any.

I'm not so sure a "letter from a lawyer" will gain more traction than simply being honest and straightforward about why you repainted the frame, and simply sending the frame to Commencal for inspection. That's what I'd do anyway. I've always had good luck on warranty treatment by MTB frame and component mfrs by being honest and straightforward. You have to remember that warranty departments are like teachers: they've heard every excuse in the world under "just riding along" like teachers have heard "dog ate my homework."

 

[norbar]

.

I once sold a fork to a dude in Poland, via eBay. The ways in which he misunderstood my clear explicit terms of sale were astonishing. I don't mean to paint with a broad brush here, but... your quote above shows that you're not getting even half of what I'm saying.

Especialy since I work in english and did a 3 year IB diploma high school ( which was all in english) so yeah I can't speak english. Good that you judge my proficiency on my nationality, not on my posts...

Seriosuly dude I understand you clear - you vent on the forums some of your issues. Also please don't ask me to go after lawyers like you go after me because I'm from PL. Your job is no less crappy than my silly country.

 

[slowitdown]

Especialy since I work in english and did a 3 year IB diploma high school ( which was all in english) so yeah I can't speak english. Good that you judge my proficiency on my nationality, not on my posts...

Seriosuly dude I understand you clear - you vent on the forums some of your issues. Also please don't ask me to go after lawyers like you go after me because I'm from PL. Your job is no less crappy than my silly country.

I suggest you look in a mirror when you accuse others of being hypersensitive.

After that, you should check this out:

a definintion

 

[Ithnu]

Also please don't ask me to go after lawyers like you go after me because I'm from PL. Your job is no less crappy than my silly country.

I have 2 friends who are lawyers and one who is from Poland. The Polish girl speaks highly of where she is from. One lawyer hated it so much he quite to be a teacher; the other likes her job a lot.

So lawyer, neutral...Poland good. That's enough info to pass internet judgment right there. Its concreted even more by the fact that neither of you know if I'm full of crap or not.

 

[IH8Rice]

after working for a manufacturer for years and retail management for years before that, ive found a manufacturer would usually take care of the customer better if they are contacted directly by the end-user.
usually going through a retailer and or distributor to get a warranty issue sorted will get you no where and or will take forever.

have you tried contacting Commencal USA or their main HQ?

 

[norbar]

I have 2 friends who are lawyers and one who is from Poland. The Polish girl speaks highly of where she is from. One lawyer hated it so much he quite to be a teacher; the other likes her job a lot.

So lawyer, neutral...Poland good. That's enough info to pass internet judgment right there. Its concreted even more by the fact that neither of you know if I'm full of crap or not.

I was not being serious about law being a crappy job If you like it it's fine. Have some lawyer friends too though none of them is really crazy about it. As about Poland - a lot ppl are positive about it because of 2 things: 1. You should be 2. We still have a lot of bs propaganda that we are the best in the world in many things (like health care) - being from us you prolly get that

btw. why would you be full of crap? I may be sleepy as I don't get it.



@slowitdown - man that's a real lawyer move to make. Now decide if it's either satire or I'm for real




IH8Rice - you speak the truth. Always been that way from my experiance.

 

[slowitdown]

norbar, if we're engaged in back-and-forth satire, then the world is a happy place!

 

[Dogboy]

have you tried contacting Commencal USA

That's who he is talking to.

 

[davetrump]

ok ok... i have to ask this, just to be sure



you say you paid $50 for a cheap paint job that went right over the existing paint, correct? You say you only rode it once after in Whistler, correct ?

have you actually chipped all the paint away and gotten down to bare metal to see if you actually have a crack or if your cheap $50 paint job is cracking from stress/flex, etc ?

Kona had this same problem a few years ago on the stab race bikes. cheap paint cracking all around the headtube but when owner chipped it off they could see the metal was perfectly fine.

What do you have to loose? might as well have a look and see right ?

 

[Kanye West]

Hey now! Everyone hates a lawyer until he gets sued. Then the lawyer-hating bile-spewer comes groveling in, "dude, I'm sorry about those 4,260,682,169 times I slagged lawyers in your presence. I need help!"

Nah not really...mostly because the vast majority of lawyers hate themselves too.

 

[DirtyMike]

My take on this situation.... Commencial doesnt have to do a damn thing, repainting of a bike almost industrywide completly voids out any warranty you had with the bike..... Its pretty cut and dry for all teh manf's out there that repainting is considered a frame mod.

As far as this being a known problem..... Maybe it is..... Ok yeah it is a known problem. I have seen known problems like this get taken care of before even though the customer has done something to completly void teh warranty.... What it usually comes down to is a simple fact........ Does the supplier have some extras sitting around... If they do, they will usually cave pretty fast. An example of that, a few years ago I had a customer close their trunk onto there trek 5000 carbon frame and crack the chainstay and seatstay, most shops would already tell the customer not a chance in hell..... but we called, the bike was three years old, and trek had some left over frames in her size. They gave her a frame, but didnt cover labor.... Thats one lucky chick right there



Things to point out...

Overseas company, being sold through one single US supplier.
Not a common bike to see in the states, leaving myself to belive that BTI doesnt stock alot of extra parts.
50 dollar paint job on a 3k frame......Just sayin, thats half way to a proper PC job.




Small example<and this is why manf's void warranties for repainting> You want me to paint your frame for fifty bucks, My method would be.... Ok You take it all apart and bring it to me. I would spray it with easy off, let the paint melt off, wash it, shoot some ****ty rattle can primer, then coat it with some ****ty rattle can paint..... Here is the kicker, I just used a non approved paint remover with unknown effects to the alloy the bike is built with.

Not all chemical removal is none harmfull to metal, the only Manf I know that approves repainting of a frame is intense, but ONLY if you take it to their painters/pcers. Who use an apporved by intense method of repainting/pcing.

ok ok... i have to ask this, just to be sure



you say you paid $50 for a cheap paint job that went right over the existing paint, correct? You say you only rode it once after in Whistler, correct ?

have you actually chipped all the paint away and gotten down to bare metal to see if you actually have a crack or if your cheap $50 paint job is cracking from stress/flex, etc ?

Kona had this same problem a few years ago on the stab race bikes. cheap paint cracking all around the headtube but when owner chipped it off they could see the metal was perfectly fine.

What do you have to loose? might as well have a look and see right ?

This has been the single most statement in this thread that I come back to. a fifty dollar paint job is pretty effin cheap for the materials and labor involved in painting a bicycle, let alone a full suspension bike. Without actually seeing the bike, and going off the info that has been listed I would be doubtfull there is actually a crack in the bike. I would be fully ready to scuff off the paint to see if it is indeed a crack in the frame, or a crack in the ****ty ass paint job

 

[demo 9]

My toyota had "aftermarket" floor mats, i still got my gas pedal shim. Send him a new triangle already, not like he is the first person to break it

I painted an old big**** SPEC (fluorescent orange) not a question on warranty which was from casing a large jump and snapping the headtube, and the serial was blasted off it, they did not care. *was not even warranty, but they went above and beyond to send a complete new frame, not even just the front, the whole thing
http://lp1.pinkbike.com//photo/2784/pbpic2784574.jpg - paint job

 

[DirtyMike]

My toyota had "aftermarket" floor mats, i still got my gas pedal shim. Send him a new triangle already, not like he is the first person to break it

I painted an old big**** SPEC (fluorescent orange) not a question on warranty which was from casing a large jump and snapping the headtube, and the serial was blasted off it, they did not care. *was not even warranty, but they went above and beyond to send a complete new frame, not even just the front, the whole thing
http://lp1.pinkbike.com//photo/2784/pbpic2784574.jpg - paint job

Two reasons.... Your in the US were they store their extras....... They had extras.... Just did a similar warranty for a guy with broken stays.... his fault he backed into it, warranty had extras, shipping wasnt that much

 

[sbabuser]

Hey now! Everyone hates a lawyer until he gets sued. Then the lawyer-hating bile-spewer comes groveling in, "dude, I'm sorry about those 4,260,682,169 times I slagged lawyers in your presence. I need help!"

And you wonder why people dislike lawyers?
Honestly?

 

[Ithnu]

btw. why would you be full of crap? I may be sleepy as I don't get it.

Because I'm passing judgment on the internet.

The thing is my friend who hates being a lawyer is one of my best friends from college. What does that say about me?

 

[Pashley 24Mhz]

Kona had this same problem a few years ago on the stab race bikes. cheap paint cracking all around the headtube but when owner chipped it off they could see the metal was perfectly fine.

I remember that

Just sent them soms pics at the time, and got e new frame for real cheap. They didn't even want my old (yeah, if you can call a one year old frame 'old') one so I had 2 perfect frames