[SuspectDevice]

Nick from The Development is loving his FTW as a UK race bike.

It doesn't have any fancy linkages, but if you want something badass that most punters won't even recognize it fits the bill... Most certainly fast and built to last. Since you like to fettle there are travel and geometry adjustments you can play with too. A great frameset upon which to exercise your innate weight-geek tendencies as well.

 

[- seb]

Not sure I DO like to fettle actually. Both my DHi and my Devinci had simple adjustments which would alter wheelbase and BB height, and I just set them to as low short and slack as they go and left them for 2 years

I was admiring Nick's FTW (only just realised the flukiness of his initials!) when he first got it at Llangollen earlier this year. I do like simplicity and lack of maintenance, but on the other hand it just looks a bit too... well, simple. I like the idea, but at the same time I don't trust that it's the best way to get down a hill quickly, if you see what I mean!

 

[William42]

what about, dare I say, a trek session or a demo 8? The trek is pretty established as riding really really well, and the demo has probably the most dialed geometry of anything on the market.

 

[kidwoo]

I think the issue with your Turner was rider induced.

You know you're just jealous because turner doesn't make you sound french.

 

[- seb]

New 88 looks horrible, and Demos look a lot better than they used to, but that's not saying much is it...

I do like the Trek though, just not the new paintjob. Maybe there's others I've not seen, but the silver/red one is nasty?

 

[kidwoo]

New 88 looks horrible, and Demos look a lot better than they used to, but that's not saying much is it...

Okay, make a list of the pretty bikes you can be seen in public on, tape that list up on a wall, and throw a unicorn at it and see where it sticks.

 

[- seb]

OK, this one's quite purrrty....

 

[IH8Rice]

how bout a 2011 Revolt
*cough* *cough*

 

[cableguy]

Not sure how meaningful these numbers are, but it is what it is.

--------------------------------
First up, what are the riders at this year’s 2010 World Champs here at Mount St. Anne rocking for frames?

Trek 10%
Specialized 7%
Intense 6%
Giant 6%
Evil 6%
Yeti 6%
Santa Cruz 5%
Lapierre 5%
Transition 5%
Kona 4%
Scott USA 4%
Commencal 4%
Tomac 3%
Sunn 3%
Solid 3%
Rocky Mountain 3%
Norco 3%
Devinci 2%
Cove 2%
Masi 2%
Oxford 1%
Ancilotti 1%
Banshee 1%
KHS 1%
Bergamont 1%
GT 1%
Zenith 1%
Xprezo 1%
Ghost 1%
Corratec 1%
Mondraker 1%

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/world-champ-stats-2010.html

 

[- seb]

Okay, make a list of the pretty bikes you can be seen in public on, tape that list up on a wall, and throw a unicorn at it and see where it sticks.

Pretty much what I'm doing I know it's foolish to be swayed by prettiness on a DH bike. If it does the job, who cares, right? But the reality is it's hard to get excited about buying something if you think it looks like a dog's dinner And in some silly way you're probably quicker on a bike that you think looks good (so long as it's not a really bad bike).

 

[SuspectDevice]

Seb,
You are smart enough to understand that the only thing that matters for going fast is geometry and leverage ratio/grip. Adding more bearings doesn't add anything to the former and doesn't necessarily effect the later enough to make a perceptible difference. Next time you see Nick, ask him for a go on it.

You live somewhere densely packed enough with downhillers that you could probably get a few runs on all the bikes you are interested in.

Get some test rides in and lay down the geekery and observations for all of our mutual enjoyment.

 

[- seb]

Oxford 1%
Zenith 1%
Xprezo 1%
Ghost 1%
Corratec 1%

Photos? I doubt I'll get any of these, but I'm curious, never heard of any of them, apart from maybe Xprezo, and I forget what that was like

 

[Pslide]

Not too fussed about the bike, but that is an AWESOME photo!!!

 

[- seb]

You live somewhere densely packed enough with downhillers that you could probably get a few runs on all the bikes you are interested in.

Get some test rides in and lay down the geekery and observations for all of our mutual enjoyment.

Ah, but we all know that 99% of the time these threads come up the OP will go and buy whatever the feck he wants, regardless of the advice given. Chatting **** about bikes is what we do though, isn't it?

You are smart enough to understand that the only thing that matters for going fast is geometry and leverage ratio/grip. Adding more bearings doesn't add anything to the former and doesn't necessarily effect the later enough to make a perceptible difference.

Sorry, but I'm not sure I buy that at all. A single pivot behaves completely differently to a 4-bar horst, for example. I think YOU'RE smart enough to know that I'm not making any claims about one being better than the other, but DYNAMIC geometry (more important than static, no?) certainly changes when you add in extra linkages and all that gubbins!

Not saying the FTW is a bad bike - I wouldn't know without riding one back to back with other bikes, and even then I wouldn't really know as I wouldn't have time to get used to and adapt my riding style to each bike...

Why is leverage ratio important for going fast? If that was the case wouldn't we all be on Foes?

 

[IH8Rice]

Why is leverage ratio important for going fast? If that was the case wouldn't we all be on Foes?

contrary to belief, none of the Foes frames are 2:1

 

[- seb]

Are you making a point that I'm missing?

From the website: 2.11:1 leverage ratio (4.5" stroke, 9.5" travel).

Considering most bikes are around 3, 2.11 is close enough to call it "2:1". And fwiw I never said they WERE 2:1 in my post

 

[Sandwich]

Since you're in the UK, how about the astrix Havoc R? Seems to popular over there. http://www.astrixeurope.com/frames.php

Alternatively, why not the new GT DHI or whatever they call it now? With seplavy behind it, the weaknesses will probably be done soon.

 

[- seb]

Does the Fury have weaknesses? Not heard of any, but maybe I've not been looking in the right places! Who's Seplavy? (Was that even a person's name? )

 

[IH8Rice]

Are you making a point that I'm missing?

From the website: 2.11:1 leverage ratio (4.5" stroke, 9.5" travel).

Considering most bikes are around 3, 2.11 is close enough to call it "2:1". And fwiw I never said they WERE 2:1 in my post

you said "if leverage ratio was important, we'd be all riding a Foes," which lead me to believe that you thought a low leverage ratio would be better. there are other bikes out there with lower leverage ratios then the Foes...just sayin

up until the 2011 DHS came out, they were 10" of travel, not 9.5", making it 2.22....similar to their other bikes of 2.22-2.35 ratio.

Does the Fury have weaknesses? Not heard of any, but maybe I've not been looking in the right places! Who's Seplavy? (Was that even a person's name? )

they are nice, but a bit heavy. especially for a CF bike.

Todd Seplavy is skatodd on here...he was behind IH, Evil and now GT

 

[Sandwich]

I'm not sure of the gen 1 fury's weaknesses, but if there were any, he would hash them out, i'd expect. Seplavy is Todd Seplavy (sorry if I butchered the name) who used to go by Ska Todd on this site and was one of the mans behind the Sunday. Not sure if the internet love machine LIED to me, but I've heard he was now working for GT, which can only mean good things...and taking a look at their new lineup, it looks good!

Oh yeah, not that I'm helping anymore, but I took my trek ABP trailbike on some light DHing and I must say the ride was impressive...I would definitely consider a session as my next DH sled....the devinci just doesn't sing to me though I like the design.

 

[zdubyadubya]

dude. i remember you waiting forever for a fury so you rode your dhi into the ground. they are here now and readily available, they are killer bikes and they have a good cs division to back em up.

why not a fury? get the bike you have always wanted...

Since you're in the UK, how about the astrix Havoc R? Seems to popular over there. http://www.astrixeurope.com/frames.php

Alternatively, why not the new GT DHI or whatever they call it now? With seplavy behind it, the weaknesses will probably be done soon.

Does the Fury have weaknesses? Not heard of any, but maybe I've not been looking in the right places! Who's Seplavy? (Was that even a person's name? )

I'm not sure of the gen 1 fury's weaknesses, but if there were any, he would hash them out, i'd expect. Seplavy is Todd Seplavy (sorry if I butchered the name) who used to go by Ska Todd on this site and was one of the mans behind the Sunday. Not sure if the internet love machine LIED to me, but I've heard he was now working for GT, which can only mean good things...and taking a look at their new lineup, it looks good!

Oh yeah, not that I'm helping anymore, but I took my trek ABP trailbike on some light DHing and I must say the ride was impressive...I would definitely consider a session as my next DH sled....the devinci just doesn't sing to me though I like the design.

 

[SuspectDevice]

Ah, but we all know that 99% of the time these threads come up the OP will go and buy whatever the feck he wants, regardless of the advice given. Chatting **** about bikes is what we do though, isn't it?



Sorry, but I'm not sure I buy that at all. A single pivot behaves completely differently to a 4-bar horst, for example. I think YOU'RE smart enough to know that I'm not making any claims about one being better than the other, but DYNAMIC geometry (more important than static, no?) certainly changes when you add in extra linkages and all that gubbins!

Not saying the FTW is a bad bike - I wouldn't know without riding one back to back with other bikes, and even then I wouldn't really know as you don't have time to adapt your style to the bike...

Why is leverage ratio important for going fast? If that was the case wouldn't we all be on Foes?

Lee and I are on different sides of the ocean. He's a nice guy, for sure though. I'm just a big fan of Franks work and he's been a big part of my life since I was a kid. I'm biased, but there are a bunch of other bikes that I'd be just as happy on.

You are overthinking this stuff. Counter-rotating links, short coupled links, big f*cking swinarms, motolinks, all of that stuff does the same thing- it makes the shock compress. That stuff is what makes your bike have grip, it's defined by a curve and it's quite possible to create an optimal or near optimal leverage curve with any old sort of monkey-motion you may have available. That's what that "instant center" and all of the other acronyms and cryptic shorthand you always see the mega-nerds ranting about.
Leverage ratio is the only thing that matters when it comes to how suspension works. De-coupling braking forces is a bit of an elephant in the room, and is more than anything a matter of personal prefernce.

There are slight tweaks that some systems will allow you to make in the way you feel the tire and the way the bike grips/chasis stability/etc. They do that by having a little bit more control over various parts of the leverage curve because of the way the shock is actuated. Not very many designers really take time to exploit that stuff, or it doesn't really matter to them with their design objectives for the project. With modern shock technology it's very hard to tell the differences in all that jazz, and it's all moot until the damper is tuned correctly.

We are so lucky that the choices we have as consumers these days are between great bikes and totally awesome bikes. If I were in the UK and I had my druthers I'd look at the aftersales support you would get from the distributor in case you have mishaps, ham-fisted accidents or even general tuning questions. Just like in the US I'd try to buy locally made bikes, and/or bikes from a company that gives back as much as it can to racing in my region.

Those are just about the only hard facts one has to consider when evaluating a bike, but honestly, bikes are so damn good these days you might as well buy based on color!

 

[demo 9]

Canfield Jedi?

 

[- seb]

So you think axle path isn't even vaguely important, and all that matters is a nice leverage curve to get a nicely progressive shock, even though modern shocks can do that stuff themselves with a linear leverage curve?

When did this become accepted as fact? I've obviously been off the forums for too long!

In my mind (and I'm happy to admit I'm not a suspension buff) axle path and things like brake jack (or rather lack of it) are more important than a specific leverage curve?

Yeah sorry for calling you Lee (I edited it out) - I saw Northampton and thought UK, didn't notice it's just one of those (many!) place names you guys have nicked from us

 

[Sandwich]

I've got to agree...leverage curve can be supplemented by a good shock...IE, a linear curve can benefit from a progressive shock and vise versa. I don't like my Sunday's curve but the goofiness of the DHX makes it acceptable.

Axle path and braking characteristics are highest on my list. In fact, braking might be the most important thing to me right now, since most of what I ride is steep. Pedaling/antisquat is third behind AP. Every rider has his or her own preferences, but I think slapping "the only thing that matters" doesn't cover it all.

 

[- seb]

Sandwich - we're on the same page!

Much as I hated my 222 for various things, I did LOVE the floating brake on it. My Devinci's better than the DHi in that regard, but the 222 was other-worldly. And it was no placebo effect, the first time I rode the bike I totally forgot it even HAD a floater on it, until I got to the first braking-bumped corner, and it just ate it up, SO smoothly that I literally stopped, looked at the bike and went "well that's just ****ing amazing!"

I'd love to have that quality again in a bike. Ideally in a way that doesn't rattle like the 222's one did (the rose joints would wear very quickly).

 

[sikocycles]

SAndwich what bike are you riding? I agree on AP and Braking are very important.

 

[descente]

buying an obscure frame just to be "different" just seems silly to me. buying an obscure frame because it has insane build quality and excellent customer support makes a little more sense. buying an obscure frame because it rides better than all the other bikes you've ridden to compare it to makes the most sense. buying an obscure frame you've never ridden or seen firsthand sounds like you will be one of those guys who buys a new bike at the end of the season...

i've gotten some decent time on a legend, jedi, v10, session, and several demos. i liked the legend the best. almost as much as my beat up old commencal that everyone is surprised hasn't cracked yet. you can't believe everything on the internet. would you buy a new car sight unseen? why then, would you buy something that becomes an extension of your body without trying it out first?

 

[- seb]

As for Fury, when they came out they were too pricey for me, and weren't available frame-only in the UK and I didn't want to faff about importing one especially. It is on my current short list, but somehow I don't desire it as much as I used to.

 

[- seb]

buying an obscure frame you've never ridden or seen firsthand sounds like you will be one of those guys who buys a new bike at the end of the season...

For the record I'm not looking to buy at the moment, unless the 2011 of whatever I want is available already. I'm not quite sure I understand your point anyway.

As for the Devinci, nope, I'd never ridden one, but the geo figures looked good to me, I liked the look of it, reports I read were positive (slight flexiness aside) and I was keen to try a Horst-link bike.

 

[Pslide]

I'd be inclined to side more with Suspect on this...leverage curve and how it works with the shock tune is IMHO the #1 priority. I'd throw anti-squat in next (not because DW says so, but because I like my bikes to feel direct under pedalling). Axle path and braking would be last on my list. I don't think humans can really feel the small differences in axle paths between 90% of bikes, save something like a Jedi. And most linkage bikes have center of curvatures close to the position of most single pivots.

My one beef with Suspect is if leverage curve is so important, why would he recommend a FTW? I'd want something more progressive than that old-school layout.

 

[Kanye West]

Not sure I DO like to fettle actually. Both my DHi and my Devinci had simple adjustments which would alter wheelbase and BB height, and I just set them to as low short and slack as they go and left them for 2 years

I was admiring Nick's FTW (only just realised the flukiness of his initials!) when he first got it at Llangollen earlier this year. I do like simplicity and lack of maintenance, but on the other hand it just looks a bit too... well, simple. I like the idea, but at the same time I don't trust that it's the best way to get down a hill quickly, if you see what I mean!

Trust me, that bike is fast as all bloody hell. It has a very favorable axle path and leverage curve, and the geo is oh so dialed. Incredibly stable, pedals absolutely awesome, corners almost telepathically, accelerates through rocks great and doesn't get kicked. Jumps really well and doesn't do anything funny. Brakes just fine on steep stuff.

Frame is around 7# without a shock and is stiff as a board. Absolutely no skimping done on the tubing thickness either.

Oh. It's cheaper than a Legend, Revolt, M9, V10, DHR, blah blah blah. AND it's better made. About the same price as a Jedi and made in the US (properly).

I really couldn't ask for more unless I wanted a bunch of moving links. But I don't.

 

[descente]

I really couldn't ask for more unless I wanted a bunch of moving links. But I don't.

seriously.

 

[Inclag]

Not sure how meaningful these numbers are, but it is what it is.

--------------------------------
First up, what are the riders at this year’s 2010 World Champs here at Mount St. Anne rocking for frames?

Trek 10%
Specialized 7%
Intense 6%
Giant 6%
Evil 6%
Yeti 6%
Santa Cruz 5%
Lapierre 5%
Transition 5%
Kona 4%
Scott USA 4%
Commencal 4%
Tomac 3%
Sunn 3%
Solid 3%
Rocky Mountain 3%
Norco 3%
Devinci 2%
Cove 2%
Masi 2%
Oxford 1%
Ancilotti 1%
Banshee 1%
KHS 1%
Bergamont 1%
GT 1%
Zenith 1%
Xprezo 1%
Ghost 1%
Corratec 1%
Mondraker 1%

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/world-champ-stats-2010.html

I would be interested in seeing those numbers for a WC qualifying run. I think it's a bit silly that Pinkbike did this for the World Champs

 

[rigidhack]

Not sure I DO like to fettle actually. Both my DHi and my Devinci had simple adjustments which would alter wheelbase and BB height, and I just set them to as low short and slack as they go and left them for 2 years

I was admiring Nick's FTW (only just realised the flukiness of his initials!) when he first got it at Llangollen earlier this year. I do like simplicity and lack of maintenance, but on the other hand it just looks a bit too... well, simple. I like the idea, but at the same time I don't trust that it's the best way to get down a hill quickly, if you see what I mean!

Having just spent a season on an FB10, I can say that it is an incredible bike. It is laterally stiff, fast, predictable, and super simple to maintain. The adjustments on the bike are incredibly simple - just 3 ways of mounting the shock on a shuttle. Nothing you need to worry about if you choose not to use.

I'm not exactly sure that I know what you are getting at by saying that you don't trust it is the best way to get down a hill quickly. Care to elaborate?

In any case, if it were me right now, and keeping in mind that I rather like single pivot bikes, the bikes on my list would be:

FTW FB10
Canfield Jedi
Knolly Podium

FWIW, everybody I have talked to who is on a Banshee (Mythic) Legend really likes it.

 

[SuspectDevice]

Funny thing about braking performance- lately I've only been riding vintage FSR bikes (M1, SGS, '01 S-works fsr DH) trying to figure out how I personally feel about de-coupled braking, but mostly because I'm fast enough to push one of those bikes to the edge, and I'm terrified of getting a modern DH bike up to speed without spending hours in the gym every week and sacrificing skin and bones just for a few hours of kicks on the weekend.

It's novel and pretty sweet if yer into that sort of thing, but I think I personally have decided once and for all that I prefer some squat under braking.
Good suspension, as in on modern bikes does even more to make the braking performance of a bike less important. If you like squat, you can squat it yourself. Weee!

 

[sikocycles]

When? I need a new DH frame for next season. I want to keep it local and USA built

 

[Sandwich]

SAndwich what bike are you riding? I agree on AP and Braking are very important.

I have a sunday now. I really like the bike, but I don't love it. It pedals great and is really stout. I love being able to get on it (when I get the opportunity to) and go ride. I don't love the suspension nor the braking. I could probably get better suspension performance out of it with a better shock, but I like a very progressive curve. It doesn't do anything wrong under braking, but I'd prefer it to stay a bit more active than it does. Of course, my previous bike was a racelink, so progressive and active was the name of the game.

I don't think humans can really feel the small differences in axle paths between 90% of bikes, save something like a Jedi. And most linkage bikes have center of curvatures close to the position of most single pivots.

My one beef with Suspect is if leverage curve is so important, why would he recommend a FTW? I'd want something more progressive than that old-school layout.

true on the linkage/SP bike comparison...but then you admit that the jedi has a different feel to it. THAT's the axle path I'm talking about. A lahar or similar _high_ pivot will feel different than an old turner DHR or similar, and even a bit different than a morewood. But a trek vs. a DHR, or even a Trek vs. a Sunday, then no, I don't think there's much difference that a rider will pick up on. But then you get into axle path affecting anti-squat.....and there's a whole mess.

I agree, the one thing the FTW lacks is a nice rising rate linkage. I've pedaled one around and it's a super solid bike...one that I would consider, but I'm not really in the market for a new bike unless it's "The one"....maybe one made of supertherm or with an alfine hub?

 

[sikocycles]

I loved the racelink. The suspension and braking were great. The geo was a little off and the weight but was a great bike.
I cant wait for "The One" also

 

[big-ted]

I'm becoming more and more of the opinion that bikes fall generally into three camps when it comes to axle path:

1) Very rearwards. Eats rock gardens and chunder. Not as lively or as fun in corners.
1a) with idler. Pedals well, but has all the added complexity/gubbins of an idler
1b) without idler. Has weird pedal/suspension interaction ala original 222s. Sprints great providing trail is smooth. Pedaling through rough sections nigh on impossible.

2) Forwards, ala low single pivots. Trek, old-style DHR etc. Super lively and fun to ride, but be prepared to have to put in some body English to get through chundery sections. Rewards hopping and jumping stuff.

3) Something in the middle. VPP, DW link, FSR etc. Honestly, axle-path wise, all of these feel (to me) somewhere between the two above and are just splitting hairs when their respective proponents get into the chest-thumping and marketing. VPP and DW bikes seem to be very affected by chainring sizes and can exhibit some odd behavior when small rings are used on AM bikes. The FSR trail bikes I've ridden have all been very active in all chainring sizes. Ie: they move a lot if you just stand and mash on the pedals, but I've not noticed any effects due to chain torque forces. Some people like the bike to try and compensate for ****ty pedaling technique, which is what DW and VPP bikes seem to do in my eyes, but personally I'd rather just learn to pedal properly. Anyway, we're talking DH bikes here so I'll move along...

Leverage ratio. It has to be somewhat progressive. Basic single pivots, ala Orange, Balfa old Morewoods have always felt like ass to me. Again, on shorter travel bikes it's not as big of a deal, (I quite liked the Heckler I rode around) but we're talking DH bikes here. I've really liked all the linkage driven single pivots I've tried. (Old DHR, Flatline, TR450 etc).

Braking. Honestly, I've never had a problem with brake/suspension coupling, other than on the high single pivots I've ridden. I can't tell any huge difference between my old style DHR, my current FSR bike, the split pivot bikes I've ridden, or friend's bikes with low single pivots and floating brake arms.

There. That's my $0.02.