[Kanye West]

I agree, the one thing the FTW lacks is a nice rising rate linkage. I've pedaled one around and it's a super solid bike...one that I would consider, but I'm not really in the market for a new bike unless it's "The one"....maybe one made of supertherm or with an alfine hub?

Sorry, incorrect. It has a nice consistent mild rising rate all the way through the travel. Exactly the way that I and lots of other riders asked for. As far as the linkage dynamics go, that was the #1 change between his first run of straight-tubed F-Bombs and this batch of FB10's. Pivot point stayed the exact same I believe.

Ride one around and get it deeper into its travel, you'll see. It's a 9" bike despite what a parking lot test might have you believe.

That said, I believe that almost all modern DH frames benefit greatly from a shock with adjustable bottom-out control and/or progressiveness control. The couple shocks I've run on this bike I've used only a little bit of bottom-out control on (RC4 and Roco) while running exactly 33% sag. I can just feel the bottom out bumper if I go off larger drops or stepdowns without absorbing much with my body. Just how I like it. Consistent support through the travel.

 

[Pslide]

2) Forwards, ala low single pivots. Trek, old-style DHR etc. Super lively and fun to ride, but be prepared to have to put in some body English to get through chundery sections. Rewards hopping and jumping stuff.

Agree with just about everything you said. But I wouldn't call the Trek a low pivot. It's actually pretty close to the chainline.

Most companies have figured out that the place for it, although a few are still running low pivots (like Transition BR).

 

[Pslide]

Sorry, incorrect. It has a nice consistent mild rising rate all the way through the travel. Exactly the way that I and lots of other riders asked for. As far as the linkage dynamics go, that was the #1 change between his first run of straight-tubed F-Bombs and this batch of FB10's. Pivot point stayed the exact same I believe.

Out of curiosity, have you seen a chart or do you know the numbers? I'd be interested to know, it's hard to tell just by looking.

I'd agree though, mild constant rising rate is pretty much ideal, especially with a shock with bottom out. I'd want a more aggressive rising rate if I were using a CCDB.

 

[Kanye West]

I plotted it out once from a picture (which is ghetto, I know, but with only 3 points to work with you can get a pretty general idea and accuracy isn't AS much of a concern as with the dual link bikes). It went from 3.2 down to 2.8 without any weird curves or arcs in between. Just straight.

I agree on the CCDB thing. You've gotta have a frame that has an extremely progressive end-stroke in order NOT to be using the HSC for bottoming control. Poor compromise to have to make in my opinion.

 

[yetihenry]

Seb, from your internet personailty you are the sort of guy who doesn't spend money dialling something in, and want something light and fast. For that reason I would seriously consider a 224 evo with a CCDB or an Empire AP1. I have a 224 with a van r and it is miles better than a 222, just tracks so much better and feels a lot nicer, and having ridden the CCDB I cant wait to get one. My housemate has an evo with a ccdb and one of my riding buddies has the Empire, nice relatively high pivots and the empire rides light, Ive spent a lot of weekends with both bikes and they are amazing, the empire isn't super light, but it genuinely rides lighter and the weight is central and low. With your position at R&R Im sure you would easily get hooked up by any UK manufacturer pretty easily. Coming from a Sunday, simple single pivot is a god send, roost is no longer that annoying thing that will hide in my bike and ruin my bearings, its back to good old fun.

 

[SuspectDevice]

You know, I should probably clarify a statement I made earlier about "leverage ratio and geometry being the only things that matter"

Instead I probably should have come up with a term like "dynamics package", all of the stuff that is integrated when you talk about how the bike handles. That includes the squishy bits, and gravity, the physical dimensions of the bike and where your mass is going and how all of that stuff plays out in terms of grip and stability. There's more stuff too, but let's for the sake of all that's good in the world try to collectively spend less time analyzing things in a bubble.

I officially nominate "Dynamics Package" as a catch-all and less than fully-wonkish universal way to talk about how innumerable factors add up to make a bike drive well without getting into the marketing speak of multi-million dollar advertising and bull**** acronyms.
Etymologically it's an accurate and neutral term, and DP as a shorthand has all sorts of giggle-inducing possibilities for our resident Ridemonkey bon mot specialists to exploit.


It's getting all myopic about certain elements of a bike that concerns me.

Take the human body- all of those organs you have work together to make a living being. You need every organ you have to perform optimally (well, except for your appendix), similarly an integrative approach is necessary when analyzing any other complex system, be it a refrigerator or a sweet effin bike.

 

[Sandwich]

didn't know the FTW had a straightishrisingish rate. I thought it would be linear or falling, which I thought would be more typical for standard single pivot, fixed shock bikes.

Also, I was going to suggest the empire. It's very british.

 

[- seb]

I'll definitely never ride an Empire. I find most of my injuries in crashes come from getting tangled in the bike - imagine how much those rough cast edges are going to absolutely rape your shins mid-tumble!!

I'm actually kinda intrigued to try a 224, just to see how big an improvement it is over my first-gen 222!

Rob, I agree with most of what you said, but I'm intrigued by "Not as lively or as fun in corners." Not saying you're wrong, had just forgotten that nugget, I think you're right. Is this due to effective chainstay length increasing when squatting into the travel, or something else?

 

[mtg]

...but I'm intrigued by "Not as lively or as fun in corners." ... Is this due to effective chainstay length increasing when squatting into the travel, or something else?

Good question, I've wondered that myself. How much of the "fun, poppy" feel is from axle path/change in chainstay length/pivot location, how much from a progressive leverage, how much from static/overall chainstay length. I don't have enough experience riding tons of frames to know first hand....

I test rode a Santa Cruz Nickel earlier this year and it was very fun and poppy- and I've been wondering what exactly is the major contributor to that. My Covert is also similar, but not as poppy. Is it the axle path/pivot location, progressive-ness, or chainstay that's most important? I'm sure all play a role, it would be interesting to know how much of a role each piece plays.

 

[LMC]

is the Fury available in the UK yet? i remember you saying how much you loved the DHi. That would be my vote.

 

[- seb]

LMC: I don't really know... if you do a search on google there's lots of UK shops apparently selling them. But Beaumont aside I've literally not seen a single one in the UK. I'll give a shop a call tomorrow and see what the deal is.

 

[yetihenry]

I'll definitely never ride an Empire. I find most of my injuries in crashes come from getting tangled in the bike - imagine how much those rough cast edges are going to absolutely rape your shins mid-tumble!!

I'm actually kinda intrigued to try a 224, just to see how big an improvement it is over my first-gen 222!

The empire definitely isn't very rough, a few sharpish areas but they are rounded off. Definitely a unique reason not to ride it! Id still reccomend riding one, Slam Cycles in Cheshire have a demo and organise uplifts at Caersws/Inners and take them along.

Im pretty sure bikeactive have a demo 224 with a ccdb (it is a 15" though iirc). 17" are huge as Im sure you know, so if you aren't used to long bikes may be a bit too far.

Now that CSG bring in GT rather than hotwheels I bet you'd be hard pressed to get a fury in the UK without a lot of effort.

EDIT: A quick picture to make you consider the Orange, after that Ill quit the SP spam! Also freakily while I was getting this pic from bikeactives fanpage, facebook suggested you as a friend!

Awesome 224 evo build

 

[p-spec]

Nope.

Not a single failure.


Just a shltty stress riser caused by a mis-specced gusset.

Mine got it. I'm getting it replaced. And I can't wait to ride the thing again for many many years.

Lol.x6

 

[Sandwich]

Rob, I agree with most of what you said, but I'm intrigued by "Not as lively or as fun in corners." Not saying you're wrong, had just forgotten that nugget, I think you're right. Is this due to effective chainstay length increasing when squatting into the travel, or something else?

that's from the chainstays lengthening, and I can attest to it via my old brooklyn. The thing was amazing through rockgardens, but it had a hard time getting through tight turns, particularly with berms. The suspension compressing effect lengthened the chainstays, making it more resistant to turning with added G forces, AKA less "poppy". Low pivot bikes I've ridden have been exactly the opposite, in fact the arrow DS-3 concentric pivot bike I had was incredible in a tight turn, and the DHR I rode for a day did well in that area as well. The sunday feels kind of in between.

You have to kind of consider what's the most value to you. A day at highland was a bear on my racelink. A day at plattekill was the happiest day on earth. The sunday does both well, but has it's faults. I never took the arrow to highland, but man was it amazing around a BMX park or tight DS style trail.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

i didn't read the thread but to me the most un-problematic bike out there has got to be the Transition TR-450, that thing is a rock...And they have some of the best customer service in the biz.

 

[Transcend]

I'll definitely never ride an Empire. I find most of my injuries in crashes come from getting tangled in the bike - imagine how much those rough cast edges are going to absolutely rape your shins mid-tumble!!

I'm actually kinda intrigued to try a 224, just to see how big an improvement it is over my first-gen 222!

Rob, I agree with most of what you said, but I'm intrigued by "Not as lively or as fun in corners." Not saying you're wrong, had just forgotten that nugget, I think you're right. Is this due to effective chainstay length increasing when squatting into the travel, or something else?

try and get your hands on one of the 225 protos floating around for sale. 2010 version if you can. You will be blown away when comparing it to a 222. The 224 evo is miles better, but the 225 is exceptional.

 

[Fool]

Okay, make a list of the pretty bikes you can be seen in public on, tape that list up on a wall, and throw a unicorn at it and see where it sticks.

Better yet, throw the list in the garbage and ride the ****ing unicorn, it'd be easier to find than the 'perfect' DH bike.

 

[- seb]

Have just done an about-turn on the new Devinci after looking more into it, I quite like it now, a few key things that I didn't realise about it, may have to try one.

 

[dump]

Dynamics Package

I got your Dynamics Package right here

 

[al-irl]

"A load of them" = How many exactly? A few have broken but the redesigned downtube has solved the issue. Gotta love RM sometimes...

Not just the downtube I heard of about half a dozen or so that were having the rear ends crack. It's not just Internet rumour

 

[roel_koel]

Hey Seb

Freeborn will have demonstration 2011 Wilson SP bikes in medium and large next month

give Jim at call at Freeborn Horsham, and he can hook you up with an off-site, uplift test session i.e. Cwm Carn or Forest of Dean

Steve Jones at Dirt Mag just tested the 2011 Wilson SP and said:

"Initial thoughts come up hugely in favour of the design characteristics that transfer to the trail. The marketing and theory is matched in the performance. Low down weight, power is transferred to forward momentum efficiently, support in the suspension design, progression, balance points, weight, quietness. There are many, many positives. More than anything we liked the fact that there was a useable range of adjustment in the system. First thoughts? Fresh. We really expect to see a BIG signing for this bike which should be gaining podiums in the next few years. Can’t really find any fault in this one. Full test to follow in magazine."

money wise the Wilson frame is selling at same money as EW Dare and Mythic (Banshee) Legend Mk2 in the UK - £2,300 with Fox RC4 coil shock - bear in mind the lifetime warranty on the Wilson frame, which is unusual from most smaller brands who only offer 1-2 years

 

[norbar]

If the bike wont crack under 2 years warranty it probably wont any time fast due to the issues covered by it (manufacturers defect, not hitting a tree at full speed) so it is really a nice touch but not really a selling point for me as much as the marketing want us to belive.

 

[time-bomb]

If the bike wont crack under 2 years warranty it probably wont any time fast due to the issues covered by it (manufacturers defect, not hitting a tree at full speed) so it is really a nice touch but not really a selling point for me as much as the marketing want us to belive.

Aluminum fatigues over time/use/abuse. If you do end up keeping this for a long time it could come in handy even if you are lucky enough to never hit a tree.

 

[norbar]

Aluminum fatigues over time/use/abuse. If you do end up keeping this for a long time it could come in handy even if you are lucky enough to never hit a tree.

I know it does but after many years most bikes will have its signs of abuse and it will be easy for mfgs to dissmiss the claim.

 

[TrailzHozer]

try and get your hands on one of the 225 protos floating around for sale. 2010 version if you can. You will be blown away when comparing it to a 222. The 224 evo is miles better, but the 225 is exceptional.

I think it depends who you ask no?

the 224 evo IS indeed a better bike than the 222, no doubts about that. But the juror is still out about the 225. MTBcut sponsored Joe Barns had one but now he's back on his 224. I know you are close with those guys, do you know why that is?

Both are sick bikes! They are probably equally bomb proof too.

 

[kidwoo]

Lol.x6

Dude I know!
Almost as funny as buying a bike primarily based on appearance right?

 

[WBC]

"A load of them" = How many exactly? A few have broken but the redesigned downtube has solved the issue. Gotta love RM sometimes...

My downtube was fine. It was the six cracks in the swingarm that put mine out of service.

 

[rigidhack]

If you are considering a 224, you really do need to look at an FB10.
Here's mine (it is one of the very few XLs made)

Personally, I love the bike. More comments from other owners here

 

[yetihenry]

How? Apart from single pivot they are nothing alike. That bike has a lower pivot rearward of the bb?

 

[sethimus]

If you are considering a 224, you really do need to look at an FB10.
Here's mine (it is one of the very few XLs made)

Personally, I love the bike. More comments from other owners here

what's the wheelbase on yours?

 

[rigidhack]

Very long. 49" or something like that. It sounds like it would handle like a truck, but it absolutely rails, even in the tight tech stuff.

As to the 224 comparison, if you take a look at the link I posted earlier, the guy there came off a 224 and says the FB10 is "better in every way."

 

[yetihenry]

As to the 224 comparison, if you take a look at the link I posted earlier, the guy there came off a 224 and says the FB10 is "better in every way."

Some guy on the internet said it? Must be right then...

 

[p-spec]

Dude I know!
Almost as funny as buying a bike primarily based on appearance right?

Its a hard world out there.

 

[rigidhack]

Some guy on the internet said it? Must be right then...

At least we understand each other.

I only point this out because here is a person who has direct experience with both frames and has posted his opinion.

The irony of your post is quite stunning.

 

[kidwoo]

Funny thing about braking performance- lately I've only been riding vintage FSR bikes (M1, SGS, '01 S-works fsr DH) trying to figure out how I personally feel about de-coupled braking, but mostly because I'm fast enough to push one of those bikes to the edge, and I'm terrified of getting a modern DH bike up to speed without spending hours in the gym every week and sacrificing skin and bones just for a few hours of kicks on the weekend.

What you actually mean by this?

I can't think of a single arena where ANY bike from 2000-2003ish comes close to any of the upper tier bikes being made these days in terms of performance.

 

[Fool]

Not even the Super 8?

 

[Transcend]

I think it depends who you ask no?

the 224 evo IS indeed a better bike than the 222, no doubts about that. But the juror is still out about the 225. MTBcut sponsored Joe Barns had one but now he's back on his 224. I know you are close with those guys, do you know why that is?

Both are sick bikes! They are probably equally bomb proof too.

Almost every 225 has different geometry, linkage geometry etc. He'd be the only one who could tell you. The first ones had a steep headangle, and we all went back to our 224s, or got custom headtube inserts made. Cathro, Hutch, myself and a few others rode new 225s (different linkage as well as geometry) this year and we all loved 'em.

 

[Kanye West]

What you actually mean by this?

I can't think of a single arena where ANY bike from 2000-2003ish comes close to any of the upper tier bikes being made these days in terms of performance.

Well set up M1's still blow away a lot of crap that's made today.

 

[ianjenn]

Well set up M1's still blow away a lot of crap that's made today.

What he said. in fact I know a guy selling a lightly used medium in the LA area.