[Squam_DH]

Or ride more often?

Nah. Then he would not have enough time to whore up his post count.

I really, really hope they do not turn the x9 gruppo into 10 speed as well. I seriously cannot go back to shimano, saint deraileurs are way too expensive and I can never find an xt in a short cage.

 

[gemini2k]

Nah. Then he would not have enough time to whore up his post count.

I really, really hope they do not turn the x9 gruppo into 10 speed as well. I seriously cannot go back to shimano, saint deraileurs are way too expensive and I can never find an xt in a short cage.

Ya, I would literally KILL A MAN for a hammerschmidt style setup that came with saint cranks, and would hold up to super gnargnar XTREME DH riding. Well if it had 3 speeds as well. Seriously, I would kill someone for it, or pay lots and lots of money for it.

 

[thom9719]

Shimano makes a DH specific group that seems to do well..... I know for one i'll be going to saint to avoid 10 speed

I'm back riding shimano stuff after a 5 year sram venture. the new shimano stuff is amazing. they really have everything dialed. It is light, sitff, and looks great.

-KT

 

[IH8Rice]

Nah. Then he would not have enough time to whore up his post count.

 

[w00dy]

What I'd like to see is a quality 6 speed cassette with appropriate DH gearing that can be taken apart (unlike XX or XO) so as to modify the spread.

+

Steve Peat says otherwise....

this XO stuff is nothing less than retarded.

I second that. SRAM signs his pay checks. He can't be cited as an impartial judge.

 

[BmxConvert]

people thought 10 speed for road bikes was stupid. they now have 11speeds

I laugh at the cyclocross guys that come in every season wondering why their new 10 speed groups are shifting so poorly after every 2 races.
I just set up a Pinarello Dogma for a guy with Campy 11speed and while it's nice, I'm fearing that all the local guys will try to make it work in the muddy nasty conditions of cyclocross and be pissed when it sucks.
That said.. 10speed while working great for road bikes is not suited for harsh/wet conditions. Maybe Sram does it better, I don't know, I haven't tried it. I'll stick with 9speed.

-Kevin

 

[Tom Church]

It's market is not DH or FR even if it is used there. I personally would love a 2x10 setup on my AM bike or my XC race rig. Run a 24/38 or so in the front with a 36/11 in the back. Higher top end when needed without a full big ring while still being able to climb nicely.

And someone said something about Hammerschmidt not being tough? I beat the hell out of mine all you and bashed it off more rocks than I can remember...it still works great.

You have to admit that the XX cassette is sick...cut from one piece of steel!

Tom

 

[FlipFantasia]

I'm back riding shimano stuff after a 5 year sram venture. the new shimano stuff is amazing. they really have everything dialed. It is light, sitff, and looks great.

-KT

ditto, the new shadow stuff is the real deal and they stepped up their game after sram put hte gears to them a few years back...role reversal, sram isn't really innovating right now....as much as I love the 1:1 ratio, the low profile shadow stuff is really really good and really really durable...

 

[Zark]

Shadow deraillers are awesome! They are so much less prone to hits, and pretty durable when it does get tagged. My Saint on the DH bike is from April, I guess I'd be on my second or third X9 in that time. The saint der has just paid for itself!


http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=586741
Looks like Shimano is going 10 too, in a big way. One guy posted a product list and it seems xt and slx will be 10 as well. No mention of saint however, fingers crossed.

 

[Dogboy]

I laugh at the cyclocross guys that come in every season wondering why their new 10 speed groups are shifting so poorly after every 2 races.

My cross bike is on its 3rd season with 10 speed Dura Ace/Ultegra. It has worked flawlessly - not a single mechanical. It's been subjected to the nastiest, peanut butter mud you could imagine and it still performs. It's 10x worse than anything my DH bike has seen and it has seen some pretty nasty crap. So what is my secret? Me. A competent mechanic.

 

[P.T.W]

While i do kinda agree that DH is too small a drivetrain market for a big company(even tho Shimano seem to do ok at it). I do think there is a market out there for a small agile enterprising company to make specialised DH drivetrain/ shifting components. Something along the lines of rear hub "spiders" in 5,7,9 speed widths with a range of sprockets that the consumer can purchase separately for said "spiders". A derailleur and shifter might be a big job for a small company to handle but I'm sure limiter/adapter kits could be thought up to be sold as a kit. If one company was to do this and do it well, then I'm sure there's money to be made.

Just an idea

 

[Uncle Cliffy]

At least they're not offering dual controls...

 

[GoodbyePorkPie]

What I meant by that, besides most of the Saint group being overbuilt, is that there really isn't a DH race specific group, which is what such a tight ratio 5/6 speed cassette would be used for. I'm sure lots of Monkeys will disagree, but I want DH parts that are light-ish and strong... not DH parts that are at home on some kids 47 lb '04 Big Hit. Saint is not DH race specific, its freeride/DH friendly.

Well I hear what ya saying but I don't get it, Sram does and has produced short cage rear derailleurs for years, and in XO this is manly a DH application, so why not DH specific cassettes, cassettes are a dime a dozen, only thing I can see here is Shimano dominate the road 9spd cassette market which is what most DHers use for weight and ear ratios especially as what you're saying, an Ultegra cassette is nearly half the weight of Srams DH cassette.

This set is more than likely as others have said be suitable for AM possibly and mostly aimed at XC not DH realistically, I just hope they don't do what Shimano tried and that was to force everyone once they got there market on board down the 10spd road, I want and I know others do too flexibility and choice, many were turned off by system integration shimano tried back in the early 2000s and only bounced back by making compatible options again though not fully.

I just don't see the logic, and using top racers as example is even a smaller market, most people barely use 9sp correctly, though I'm sure its not that big an issue here.

Makes no sense to me, just moar roadie stuff

 

[MrPlow]

The black cog on the cassette makes me think of a 6-speed Shimano freewheel.

I agree, the entire set looks cheaper IMO

 

[WBC]

A new Saint shifter and derailleur isn't significantly heavier than an XT (much less than the difference between two identical tires). New Saint derailleurs are much stiffer and snappier than the Ultegra and/or XT and work better for DH racing. Other groups have less spring tension so that shifts are made easier when you're spinning at the cost of speed and reliability. I have not tuned my Saint rear der since the cable first stretched in 4-5 months ago, and the derailleur has seen some nasty gouges in that time. I'm definitely sold.

The Saint cassette is a pig (same cassette as SLX), but you can always pop 6500 ultegra on there instead.

I used to run XT 8sp with an Ultegra der and I've ran X9, but the new Saint blows both out of the water, and I don't see there being much of a need for running fewer gears other than to increase the ratio between gear changes without running a mountain cassette.

That said, I think fir and pine needles will give 10sp trouble.

 

[dropmachine]

I wonder who the bigger gear-whores are, DH or XC guys.

The fastest racers out there are doing just fine without DH specific gear, so I'm not sure why a bunch of forum jockey sport class racers feel the need to have such specific drivetrain gear. Then if it does come out, they complain about the price. If you have a problem with 8 or 9 gears, just lock them out.

X0 is top end XC, and it makes a ton of sense to go 10 speed. Graphics are debatable, I'm more interested to see how they deal with making the cassette shed mud without going the extremes of the XX cassette.

I am sure that if SRAM sees DH as a viable option for its own grouppo, as Shimano has, they will build a DH group. Giggles all around.

 

[gemini2k]

The fastest racers out there are doing just fine without DH specific gear, so I'm not sure why a bunch of forum jockey sport class racers feel the need to have such specific drivetrain gear.

Because us slow peasants have to pay for our stuff and work on it on our own. I'm sorry I'm just a poor grad student and can't afford the disposable parts that you fast guys can.

 

[BmxConvert]

My cross bike is on its 3rd season with 10 speed Dura Ace/Ultegra. It has worked flawlessly - not a single mechanical. It's been subjected to the nastiest, peanut butter mud you could imagine and it still performs. It's 10x worse than anything my DH bike has seen and it has seen some pretty nasty crap. So what is my secret? Me. A competent mechanic.

Precisely. 10spd seems more finicky in terms of shifting durability/quality as opposed to 9spd but I would say that a good portion of the people out there riding and racing these events don't plan well enough with initial setup or follow through maintenance for it to even be worth while. Although, it can be helped.

My point was for a downhill application that would likely end up on mass produced downhill bikes for the average consumer/beginner it doesn't seem like a good idea. From a mechanic/sales person standpoint customers come in and want to buy a complete downhill bike and expect that with 8" of travel the equipment will be bomb proof. No matter how much fore warning stress is put on maintenance/proper torque spec/proper use there will always be a large number of customers/parents who come in and can not possibly understand how their $5000 bike needs to have a new cable and chain at the end of their 4 month season.

-Kevin

 

[dropmachine]

Because us slow peasants have to pay for our stuff and work on it on our own. I'm sorry I'm just a poor grad student and can't afford the disposable parts that you fast guys can.

Sorry, but if a racer is buying X0 derailleurs for the back of their bike, they deserve to be poor idiots. Even X9...X7 does a pretty good job of things. Run a race-only deraileur if you thikn it will make a difference. If you're breaking a lot of stuff perhaps its time to examine how you ride no? I know that racers break stuff, its the nature of the game, but if its excessive...

 

[JRogers]

Because us slow peasants have to pay for our stuff and work on it on our own. I'm sorry I'm just a poor grad student and can't afford the disposable parts that you fast guys can.

Jeez, dude. Do you belittle everyone who disagrees with you, or is it just on forums?

 

[skier318]

10spd pushes the envelope and WILL be less forgiving if your bike is poorly maintained. Take a careful look at a 10spd Shimano road setup - the chain will rub both the inner AND outer cages of the FD at the top and bottom of the cassette. The drivetrain will shift flawlessly under load after everything is dialed, but think about how easily it could be thrown off from poor maintenance - a stretched cable, loose hub, loose cassette body, even a loose skewer.

To enjoy the full advances of 10spd, you need to keep up with the maintenance schedule. There was guy earlier talking about replacing chains, cassettes, etc at intervals. This is all necessary for long term durability. But if you are cash poor and can only afford the initial purchase, then your drivetrain will wear out at different rates and then at some point shift like ****.

 

[w00dy]

I'm smelling an opportunity here. It might be possible to rebuild a shifter pod with a new ratchet wheel and turn it into something with a reduced-count system and wider spacing. The derailleurs are almost universally cross-compatible. Just the shifter needs to change.

If this were to happen, how many speeds would you consider ideal, and which shifter do you prefer?

Most shimano stuff is riveted together, so this would probably be more easily geared toward SRAM stuff. For a custom cassette all you would need is a few plastic spacers of a specific thickness. Would anyone be interested in such a kit, or am I making too big a deal of this?

 

[dropmachine]

Why bother? If you want less speeds, go on ebay and snag 8 speed xt pods and cassettes.

 

[P.T.W]

I'm smelling an opportunity here. It might be possible to rebuild a shifter pod with a new ratchet wheel and turn it into something with a reduced-count system and wider spacing. The derailleurs are almost universally cross-compatible. Just the shifter needs to change.

If this were to happen, how many speeds would you consider ideal, and which shifter do you prefer?

Most shimano stuff is riveted together, so this would probably be more easily geared toward SRAM stuff. For a custom cassette all you would need is a few plastic spacers of a specific thickness. Would anyone be interested in such a kit, or am I making too big a deal of this?

Take a gander at post 51 on this very thread

 

[toodles]

Sorry to interupt the bickering, but does the 10spd cassette fit a 9/8spd freewheel? If so, won't the cogs need to be more tightly spaced? I wonder if a 9spd chain will fit. While shorter pin lengths are ok, thinner side plates aren't IMO.

 

[Viv92]

XT cassette, take off the last 3 cogs + SS kit (or HPII SS wheel if you have a 135 rear end) + longer limit screws = 6 speed DH set up?

 

[skier318]

are you asking about SRAM or Shimano?

Sorry to interupt the bickering, but does the 10spd cassette fit a 9/8spd freewheel? If so, won't the cogs need to be more tightly spaced? I wonder if a 9spd chain will fit. While shorter pin lengths are ok, thinner side plates aren't IMO.

 

[mtbman1127]

10 speed has tighter spacing and requires a special 10sp chain to go along w/ it either it be sram or shimano. So a 9sp chain would not be able to work, but they do fit on a 9sp freehub body.

 

[stiksandstones]

Is their entry level kit? looks like it.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

then this XO stuff is nothing less than retarded.

I dont know if i would go that far, but agreed that it isn’t the best looking groupo if you want to melt it into your dh build. I would bet that we see a SAINT competitor come out of SRAM at some point with the massive presence they have in the gravity market.

I am crossing my fingers that the hammerschmidt technology was just a foot in the door for the death of the derailure at SRAM, hopefully they can translate this into a geared hub option and release a badass DH line in the coming years...

Then use the dh hub as a trickle down into an AM config...Imagine a 20 spd am bike with no derailures...pipe dream? i dunno.

 

[demo 9]

Natural selection, if it sucks, nobody will buy it and shimano will sell more saint. SRAM isnt lookin to go out of buisness, If its a mistake like we think, im 100% sure that they will fix it

 

[Andrewpalooza]

I dont know if i would go that far, but agreed that it isn’t the best looking groupo if you want to melt it into your dh build. I would bet that we see a SAINT competitor come out of SRAM at some point with the massive presence they have in the gravity market.

I am crossing my fingers that the hammerschmidt technology was just a foot in the door for the death of the derailure at SRAM, hopefully they can translate this into a geared hub option and release a badass DH line in the coming years...

Then use the dh hub as a trickle down into an AM config...Imagine a 20 spd am bike with no derailures...pipe dream? i dunno.

Exactly. Cut out as many potential points of failure as possible, lose the especially vulnerable derailleur and derailleur hanger, and save Joe Downhill hundreds of dollars a year...

...so he can spend $2K on a single suspension product.

 

[Banshee Rider]

If you're running 9sp you should replace at least 1 chain a year, plus 1 casette, minimum just from normal wear and tear

Plus you'll probably go through at least 1 derailleur and 1 shifter if you're riding "real" DH.

Using basic retail prices from Jensonusa for varies mid-high level products

$50 for cassette+$15 for chain+$159 for an XO (if you're dumb enough to run that) + $80 for an XO shifter (again, if you're retarded enough to run that) = roughly $300

So ya, that's hundreds if you're running XO stuff. And you'll probably go through more than 1 chain and cassette if you're riding a lot, plus maybe a derailleur hanger or 2. Maybe you should learn math? Or ride real trails? Or ride more often?

Are you seriously trying to convince us your going thru one chain, cassette, chainring, derailleur, and shifter per season on a DH bike?

The chain and cassette argument is valid for proper XC and Road riders, but is flat out misleading when discussing downhill. Downhill bikes simply don't see enough pedal time to stretch a chain and cassette during a season. The riders who replace them that often either get free parts or do it out of paranoia, because I doubt a chain tool would confirm either actually needed replacement.

There is nothing about downhill that wears out a 'shifter per year' either, especially when used on 'real DH trails.' I can't tell if its personal anedotes fueled bad luck, or unjustified product biased, but either way your grasping for arguments that dont exist.

The only valid argument going is that X0 derailleurs are expensive to replace, and joey sport class is retarded for buying them. No kidding. The rest of this post though, is completely misleading.

 

[4xBoy]

I want a 5 speed with friction shifters on the down tube.

 

[IH8Rice]

Are you seriously trying to convince us your going thru one chain, cassette, chainring, derailleur, and shifter per season on a DH bike?

The chain and cassette argument is valid for proper XC and Road riders, but is flat out misleading when discussing downhill. Downhill bikes simply don't see enough pedal time to stretch a chain and cassette during a season. The riders who replace them that often either get free parts or do it out of paranoia, because I doubt a chain tool would confirm either actually needed replacement.

There is nothing about downhill that wears out a 'shifter per year' either, especially when used on 'real DH trails.' I can't tell if its personal anedotes fueled bad luck, or unjustified product biased, but either way your grasping for arguments that dont exist.

The only valid argument going is that X0 derailleurs are expensive to replace, and joey sport class is retarded for buying them. No kidding. The rest of this post though, is completely misleading.

 

[essenmeinstuff]

I'm going to wait for the XO CVT.

 

[kemosabe83]

Back to the wear and tear on DH drivetrain. I work at a shop and road xc riders do go thru a lot of chains and cassettes here. So i checked mine after 1season and i am at the point where i definetly have to change my chain. The stretch is not bad enough to effect my cassette, though i see some people would replace it for better life on the new chain. I'm just replacing the chain to prevent it breaking this coming season.
Personally.. I'd say new chain and rear dueler every season. Duelers just get smashed to the point every pivot is loose and won't shift right.

 

[Big J]

I want a 5 speed with friction shifters on the down tube.

you too, same here.......

this thread is funny.....but then again I'm at work......

J

 

[jonKranked]

man screw all this shift stuff. I want that auto shift drive train that has the adjusters in the spokes. I saw it on a infomercial once they musta done their homework.

 

[ska todd]

You guys realize all/most of this discussion is moot right? New 10 speed MTB offerings from Sram and Shimano are exclusively offered in mid & long cage lengths. 9 speed versions of Saint, XT, SLX, X.9, & X.0 will continue forward for DH/FR/AM applications as well as for those who might be unready or unwilling to jump to 10 speed.

Having personally ridden the XX stuff quite a bit, I will say that for XC/trail/AM the 11-36t cassette paired with a 2-ring crank really is an enlightening experience. You will question the existence of 3x9 completely after you put a couple good days in on 2x10. Lighter, faster shifting, less dropped chains, more ground clearance.

-ska todd