[b1k3_r1d3r]

Mickey, well said.

I believe 4x can be done, but not here(America) yet. It also needs some tweeks to be done else where better. Courses really need to be ridden by the top level riders before they come to the top level. That way issues can be seen and fixed. I feel a lot of the issues with course design is that there just is not enough effort put into testing, riding, and racing the track prior to it being a world cup. World Cups are suppose to be the top tier form of racing for that discipline and i think there needs to be more prerace effort into the courses. I'm not saying Phil Saxena is doing a horrible job, he's doing the best he can without there being a hand full of elite racers riding and practicing the course making them able to critique the courses so they can be fine tuned. That being said and due to my lack of knowledge, do 4x events have to have a test event like dh does or no? if no is the case, maybe it should happen so there can be feedback put into the courses by pros so that they can be fixed to make for ultimate racing come UCI event.

 

[ska todd]

Quite clearly I am. Here's a link to said article for those who might not have read it. I don't hide that I wrote it nor do I shy from the comments I made there or here, now or previously. When I am wrong on a topic I will own up to it.

That article actually was spawned by a discussion on litter back around Feb or so. I guess I should split my fees on it with Spomer ("T-boned by a guy with a hardon for contact." I think was a line from his original piece.) I was actually surprised at the amount of positive comments I've received on that article across the board from media, riders, teams, and sponsors.

I knew it would ruffle feathers the minute I started typing. It's been out there for well over a month now, I'm surprised it's taken this long to get the 4X'ers panties in a knot. That's probably why they asked me to write that "Loudmouth" column. Jasen knew I am opinionated and that my arguments might be controversial but they will be grounded in fact. Did it get you and others to think? The article then accomplished it's goal and the magazine did it's job to draw readers.

While something might not be your viewpoint doesn't make it "$hit". That sounds like American political discourse, not what I expect coming from the other side of the pond

-ska todd

 

[FarkinRyan]

A whole bunch of stuff and we're not here to start a quote tree...

Just to cherry pick a few of your arguments Mr Device;

- The "it's different for America because we're such a big, spread-out country" argument. I'm from Australia, we're (close enough to) just as big and even more heavily urbanised than the USA with a fraction of your population. That is, it's further from anywhere there are people to anywhere else there are people. We're still making 4X work.

- The "there's nowhere to build permanent tracks" argument. The ABA has 261 tracks in the USA and represents a sport that's been around for only 35 years. The only difference is they need space and flat ground for their tracks and we need space and a hill.

- The "head-to-head racing doesn't suit us" argument. Again, BMX. You guys have won the Worlds 5 times already this decade. You're good at head to head racing.

 

[b1k3_r1d3r]

farkinryan,

ABA and NBL are able to get money to build and promote tracks at places that are generally local town parks so they can stay until too many kids get caught drunk there. This may because BMX has a more committed and organized group of people to promote this. Most of our tracks are built at ski resorts (that host DH races) and have to be plowed at the end of the year so they can make $$$ from what the make $$$ from, skying. We also have an issue with our governing cycling body not being super amped on gravity events (I'm confidently saying this with experiencing two collegiate national events where the gravity events could have been ran better by a 3rd grader).

If we had a group of people dedicated to gated racing, racers or promoters, but mostly a large number of racers, then we could possibly build the courses on land that wont be used for other more profitable activites.

 

[b1k3_r1d3r]

Another good question I have to defend america and our issue hosting good 4x events is, do any of the other countries have racers who just come out for 4x? The majority of people who race the slalom or 4x events we have do it as an after thought to racing downhill. They do it because of their basic love or riding bikes and racing them. I don't think I've ever seen a kid come out and only race slalom at any local event.

 

[Tracer Tong]

It's probably already been said a few times, but the following video, used on dirt as a reason 4x is the way to go, is exactly why I will never race 4x.

just weighing in.

 

[bpatterson6]

It's probably already been said a few times, but the following video, used on dirt as a reason 4x is the way to go, is exactly why I will never race 4x.

just weighing in.

That's why I love racing 4x. It's balls out racing with contact. I raced
bmx for 10yrs. 4x racing is the next evolutionary step for gated racing.
It's alot of What bmx is but on steroids. The track with all the rocks and
stuff is the best. Keep those kinds of tracks coming!!!

 

[Mudstud]

After having fought my way through this thread's 16 pages yesterday (the beginning was hard, then it got more and more easy), I decided to give my five cents on the topic, too. First of all: Props to the high-profile personalitites engaging in this discussion – and turning a rather annoying fight of egoes back into a fruitful discussion on the future of the sport.

Yes, without a doubt there are problems in terms of bringing 4Cross to a grass-roots level. But no, these problems should not serve as an excuse to return to Dual Slalom, as this would not solve any of the issues regarding media coverage and crowd interest – I even guess the opposite would be true. And let’s be honest: On a Worldcup level it’s about these factors rather than about having spontaneous and hillarious fun with some buddies – no offence @ SuspectDevice and his guerilla-style slalom races that sound like an awful lot of fun, but that just does not work in any way on a Worldcup level.
And no, I do not expect a single DH-pro to compete if 4cross is replaced by Dual Slalom. Some former racers have said enough on this topic, hinting at how specialized the sport has become at its top level.
Let’s face it: At events like Sea Otter and Crankworx, Dual Slalom is a side show at best, profitting from high-profile events that attract a lot of people. But let’s be honest: NONE of them come for that silly Dual Slalom competition, they come for the Sea Otter and Crankworx.

Now, let me get to some Europe-specific aspects:
On the other side of the pond, 4Cross IS catching on, and tracks are being built in different places – Britain has been mentioned.
As a Dutchman living in German-speaking Switzerland, I pretty much am positioned in the continental centre of 4Cross activity – and there’s a whole bunch of riders that have developped over the last few years, despite the fact that there have been constant discussions on course design and how BMXey or DHish the courses should be. Holland has Joost (props for your contribution to this thread), Jurg Meijer and Joey van Veghel, Germany has riders like the Tschugg Brothers and Johannes Fischbach, and in Switzerland Roger Rinderknecht has served as a role model for young-and-charging riders such as David Graf, who has just signed a three-year contract with the Gates-Nicolai Team. France has Saladini and Derbier, and for Czechia I would rather leave it to Zdenek to go into detail about all the raw talent they’ve got (Prokop, Slavik, Mechura, Hnidak...).

The funny thing is: In Germany they essentially have only one real 4Cross track to practice on at Stollberg, www.park4cross.de/, BUT: This track is far away from most urban centres.
In Switzerland we’ve got one 4cross track so far, and that’s way up in the Alps at Zermatt – you can ride it for like 4 months per year, if you’re lucky, due to it being located way above 2000meters above sea level. Nice scenery though, with the Matterhorn and the glaciers. A second course is in the planning – looks like it will be built in the very near future and in the city where I live in (and both Rinderknecht and Graf: There's a reason why the course is being built here, and that reason is a very active BMX club that also is into 4Cross). Honestly I would rather see a 4cross course being built halfway between the larger cities in Switzerland, as this would make it easier to train in groups and push each other to new levels.

The Swiss national racing series, called «GoEasy 4Cross Cup» is built on some idealistic activists, is being run with hardly any money and offers a wild mix of Dual Slaloms and even Parallel Slalom races on grass plus some 4Cross-races on BMX-tracks. Funny thing is that Switzerland’s strongest 4crossers hardly ever compete in these races. These are grass-roots events, but still no one in Switzerland suggests scrapping the 4Cross format on a Worldcup level. There's rather a call for a European series so there is more chances to compete with riders from other countries - and yes, to gain some of those elusive UCI points.

So how do the Swiss 4cross pros train? Quite simply, they mix a lot of practice in the gym (weights!) and on BMX courses (gates, rhythm sections, jumps) with frequent rides on not-so-technical but jump-strewn DH tracks that have a cable car shuttling them up. Bern’s GurtenTrail (see www.trailnet.ch) is a fine example for such a track that’s situated right at the capital of the country – urban downhilling, or rather fun-crossing.
Now, BMX courses and flowing, jump-strewn fun downhill courses should be things that can also be found in the United States, aight? Well then, stop whining that you don’t have the proper infrastructure – make the best of what you’ve got. Seems a bit like the philosophical question whether the glass is half full or half empty.

By the way, and this one is directed especially at ska_todd, on www.frontlinemag.net I have reported more on 4Cross than on DH this past season – call it blasphemy, to me it’s more of a thing to do what others don’t, as Frontline Mag is a webzine working with a very limited amount of manpower (and an even more limited budget, haha). So if others have extensive (and great) race coverage on DH but skip the 4Cross entirely, that’s fine for me. I’ll gladly take over that 4Cross part.
From a spectators point of view, 4Cross is the way to go. The course is visible top-to-bottom, the format is simple to understand and produces plenty of drama, a race is done in less than a minute (speaking of short attention spans of modern day youngsters, ya know) and yes, there’s the NASCAR carnage argument as well (which is the least appealing to me, as my favourite rider RR13 is mostly a victim of those: that bloody Rafa Alvarez knocked Roger off his bike three times this season, without any consequences for the Spaniard). Look at snowboarding, where parallel slalom in skinsuits still exists, but Boardercross is way more attractive.

My very subjective bottom line:
4Cross and Dual Slalom should not be considered as mutually exclusive rivals, as some posts suggested at the start of this discussion – they should much rather complement each other. So there is no skipping 4cross in favour of Dual Slalom. That being said, a simple grass slope with some open corners does not do to prepare riders for 4Cross competitions. They also need to get used to log and rock sections, large jumps, rough and loose surfaces and rhythm combos. While it may be true that there is no tailor-made infrastructure in place to do so, there is ways to train properly without that as well. Use your imagination, keep on the good fight, and the sport is going to develop in the right direction. Reading through some of the posts in this thread, I am fully optimistic: Both Dual Slalom and 4Cross have a healthy future, the one as a grass-roots format, the other as the well-marketable Worldcup format.

@ Zdenek
I registered at Fourcross-Alliance, and I’ll gladly keep you informed about what’s going on in Switzerland in terms of new courses to be built.

 

[BC VAN]

To think that if Slalom replaced 4x at World Cup the top DH riders would race is not realistic, maybe in the States as our series is less important now... Slalom is harder then 4x from a physical exertion standpoint by a mile, it is twice the amount of starts and intervals... I just don't see Sam Hill doing the Slalom at W/C's, his bread is buttered on the DH slopes, at that level it is a job and a business... those guys do Dual Slalom at the events where the results aren't so important.

Is it really imperative that we have guys like Sam and Steve do gated racing?

Is a shift towards support from our Industry instead of constantly discrediting the format something that can be done?

If the goal is to have the top DH riders doing both events at W/C then reward the riders for the extra effort by giving a combined overall, and make it the most rewarded and prestigious. I always pushed for this but it always fell on deaf ears, except at Sea Otter for a couple of years.

If the goal is to appease our own community with a format that is fun and currently would have more sign ups from the am side of things then Dual Slalom is the way,

But not for World Cup.

I think there could be an increase in sign ups at World Cups, maybe...but not a mad rush to gated racing again,

But i am fairly certain that the sponsorship dollars for a televised Dual Slalom series would be non existent, to the general public Dual Slalom is boring.

I was in a meeting discussing format last year with Jeep and one of the largest sponsors of the series said " You really want to go back to Dual Slalom? we did that 10 years ago... in this day and age head to head racing is what works for TV" the return argument was " what we are hearing after talking with the industry is more of the top riders would attend if it was a Dual Slalom"

But i watched the reality in person..... the money was there, the national television was there... and only 2 of the top World Cup racers showed!

Really it wasn't going to get much better then that for a jump start for Dual Slalom gated racing.

This formation of the Alliance i think is a good step, it will allow 4x to have it's own voice and hopefully an organized set of guidelines to help different countries develop infrastructure for grass roots development.... no doubt top down growth is the hard way as we are seeing here.

I guess it remains to be seen what the future holds for 4x and Dual Slalom... I think Dual Slalom will always be in the States, while Europe and other countries will move forward with the evolution of 4x.

Personally i would love to see a Dual Slalom series local in So Cal to race.... we already have 4x at Southridge... although it is rough around the edges, there has been a lot of donated time out at Fontana and we try to wait to rainy season to do course changes, It shows that grass roots 4x is possible and can be done affordably.

 

[Dorny]

Well, 2 days in and I've finally got to posting. Quick fanboy moment, feel a little honoured to be posting amoungst 4x worlds champs, bmx world champs and big behind the scenes movers and shakers.
The first few pages are the usual forum waste of time, the mid section progress was made and it was looking very promising with the likes of jared graves, ec, boom boom, joost, phil saxena and to a more local extent chris roberts chucking into the melting pot to which I hope is how the Fourcross Alliance will work. The last few pages it appears the forum heavy weights have waded in for a chance to knock the good work that is going on here. Quick thing on the coverage issue, its all mountain biking, coverage for one is coverage for all. Some kid sees some well produced fantastic 4x racing they will want to take up MOUNTAIN BIKING and will from there see the plethora of disciplins that are about and may become a xc/dh god.
Having never (and probably will never) raced let alone ridden a wc 4x track I cant realy give any comments on such things. From a spectator point of view, good racing from good riders makes the excitement and well thought out tracks will bring the best out of the riders. The idea of the fade away turns and slalom SECTIONS are a better way of getting the audience on side over big jumps (these guy/gals are just so skilled whatever jump chucked in looks effortless and none riders have no idea of the skill needed), speed and good clean well thought out passing moves are fantastic to see. Take F1 and motoGP, the best moments are with precise big passes. Im probably wrong with this but its what I love to see in racing I have no interest in outside of mtb.
What I like to think I can kinda comment on is the importance to national scenes within 4x. They need bulking up, where dh(well the ideals) and bmx will have started from the ground up, from mates messing about upto a world level. Where as other than the early bsx in the uk (that i know of) its started at a world level and working backwards.
In the Uk we have an ever growing national 4x series, mostly good tracks for all and run fantasticaly by chris roberts but its only 6-8 races a year, not enough time to whip up a buzz and enthusiasm, a community. Whereas you have bmx that has national, regional in the summer and local stuff in the winter, plan it out and you could race 52 weekends a year. Yes with 4x its undoable to that level but Im sure with time and planning there could be more grass routes events.
One thing the Fourcross Alliance could at somepoint work out/help with is almost a portfolio that would help with swaying the mind of land owners, the forestry commission (in the uk) etc.
4x needs a voice, a face, a presence. Fourcross Alliance will hopefully gain momentum and become that but it needs to aswell as being on a world stage it, eventualy, needs to be on a more national stage. Just imaine in 5-10 years a healthy strong 4x series in most europen countries and in vast countries like australia and the U.S. Im a dreamer haha.
For the time being on the local scenes, those of us who race and enjoy 4x need to start getting our fingers out, get our heads together on less multi national forums (for the uk stuff www.nps4x.com) and get making the sport bigger on the domestic level.
Yeah a lot of nothing said here, i kind of hope the jist of different bits have come accross. Im probably wrong but an opinions an opinion haha.

Cheers

 

[Salty4X]

EC,

If the States go to a predominantly Dual Slalom format, then how would it prepare American youngsters to race World Cups. Both maybe? In my opinion that is the most important thing to consider when putting together races. It is like a football vs futbol argument in some ways. On one hand you have Dual Slalom and everyone competing and having fun amongst themselves here in the States. On the other hand if people nix 4X then we will be at a disadvantage on the international level, a level I feel is more important. Like American soccer, we are terrible on an international level and in my opinion it is because the sport rivals American football. I would rather compete among my fellow Americans to sift through and find out who should be going and representing our country on a world level rather than just to see who the best American is. Insight please.

 

[ska todd]

Tong, bpatterson, & Laurens all highlight something critical here; the aspect of contact that in many ways separates the for & against 4X camps. This is one of the reasons for my current disdain for the discipline. Is it that wrong that I prefer my cycling to be w/o the mixture of blood, broken bones, and concussions? We have that enough in our own hands from DH racing and seeing riders getting injured by other riders leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Some in the sport come from a bmx or moto background where this contact is more commonplace. Others come from more endurance or singular competition sports where there isn't chance for or in only limited contact. Myself personally, I was attracted to cycling because it was NOT a meathead jock ball sport where contact is not only encouraged but rewarded (football, lacrosse, hockey).

In road or XC there is occasionally contact. Accidents between riders happen but it is not purposeful and deliberate. That to me is a fundamental flaw with 4X. If you can ride the danger line, use the other racers on course as a berm, or just muscle your way through others you are rewarded with a pass through to the next round. Is that sportsmanlike?

As an amateur racer I have to work on Monday. I prefer not to constantly be hurt so that I can do my job well and continue to support my family. As a fan I see no glory or pride in my favorite athletes being injured from the actions of others (deliberate or accidental). As a sponsor I do not like seeing my marketing investments being hurt and not able to perform over the duration of a season or at peak level.

When we originally went to the 4X format from duel (not dual slalom...), one of the justifications was to cut down on the "Karim-ing" type riding and incidents that were seeing riders getting injured. Now it's almost worse in that you have three riders vying for the 2nd place slot to advance instead of just two guys competing for one advance. When you have money on the line (even the slim pickings of a World Cup), the power & skills of well trained athletes, and combined with often unfiltered random 'pro' licensed riders looking for a moment of fame, you have a volatile cocktail that leads to scenes that we've all seen unfold.

This has been brought up by lots of riders over the past few years as a huge negative. It has often been blamed on course design, but even with course changes we still see it happening. If it's not a one line race to the first corner it's a gladiator match in the corners. Is that really what we want our racing to be? If it is, then either I'm just an old fart, a pussy, or I confused 4X athletes with WWF wrestlers.

Somewhere on some other thread I threw out some possible ideas that could help 4X based on my above noted observations as well as marketing, athletic development, and financial needs. If I recall, my thoughts were roughly as below:

1. Just shift to dual slalom - Ok, this obviously is a hurdle to a lot of you guys so let's take that off the table for now. (just figured I'd say it to twist that knife a little more folks)
2. Switch to single advancement but with more riders (either 3X or 4X). Make it more about power, turning, and skills then just gladiator passes. But, this might just put the reliance on the gate and first corner and stall the sport even more.
3. Move 4X to the "off season", or at the very least out of XCO & DHI venues. Move it to cities and suburbs. Focus on the developing countries. Focus on counties that are not geographically graced with either ski resort uplifts or even with flat topography.

So in the end, why do I prefer dual slalom? Because it really is all of that and a bag of chips! Just as the 4X Alliance posse wants to paint myself, Mickey, and others who prefer slalom as closed-minded and backward-thinking, I also challenge you guys to look inward. Stop deflecting and casting blame outward to the media and the industry. Look to fix some of the critical flaws that have been called out in the 4X discipline and not just look to move forward with the same broken model all-the-while whining about lack of respect, funding, and support.

-ska todd

 

[Chris Roberts]

Stop deflecting and casting blame outward to the media and the industry. Look to fix some of the critical flaws that have been called out in the 4X discipline and not just look to move forward with the same broken model all-the-while whining about lack of respect, funding, and support.

-ska todd

Todd, pop onto www.fourcross-alliance.com and read it.

Everyone who attended that meeting is a stake holder in fourcross,
we discussed how to improve Fourcross both at World Cup, National & grass root levels.

The conclusion from the first ever Fourcross Workshop held on May 1st 2009 in Houffalize was clear…

Fourcross is wasting wide range of opportunities just because there is no official representative for our discipline that could be taken as a serious partner for UCI, UEC, national federations, media, organizers, track builders, athletes, teams and sponsors. They all could help 4X to be bigger and better.

The problem was that we were nothing but individuals with almost no power to change anything.
The Fourcross Workshop was great take-off for months of further talks leading in the unique agreement: After eight UCI 4X World Cup seasons it is about time to establish an official platform that is open to anybody involved in Fourcross.
The Fourcross Alliance! Our main goal is to become a helping hand for anybody interested in fourcross.

The idea is that if you want to know anything about fourcross it will be on the website.
examples of how to run a race,
Example track designs for anyone who wants to build a track, etc

We have already made some progress with this, working with the Commissars although there are no UCI rule changes for 2010 we have.. well just read the www.fourcross-alliance.com

So we are doing something about, we as a collective are working hard to make Fourcross as good as everyone thinks its should be and then make it better still.

 

[vtminuteman]

If mountain cross wants to be the next step up from BMX you have to have longer tracks and more racers in a heat. Tracks around 2 minutes in length and 10 plus riders at a time would be a better fit between bmx and mx. Has anyone tried making a mountain cross track simple? MX and BMX tracks started simple and progressed. I don't remember mountain cross starting simple. Maybe the sport needs to take a step back and create a network of simple tracks across the us and world. That should create a strong base for the sport to progress at an international level.

 

[Gobig]

I know it's down to Money/Time/Location but why not run DS and 4x alongside DH?

 

[BC VAN]

salty4x,

If i had it my way both would happen... but i wouldn't replace 4x with DH

Problem for a promoter is how do you fit it all in a weekend....It is really tight and doesn't allow for any type of down time for injury or timing mix up's (if you are holding a DH as well)

Fact is the rest of the world has moved past Dual Slalom, and it is showing in our results at World Cups, only here in the states are we holding on to the Slalom format... which as you said will not prepare riders for the highest level of racing (if that is the ultimate goal for a rider?)

If was a coach i would have my riders doing both disciplines for training and race both any chance that presented itself.... the skill set of holding the smallest of lines on a Dual Slalom is something that can transfer over to holding an inside line on 4x courses...there is some cross over value no doubt.

One of my favorite weekends of racing was a mtn states cup on Darners ranch in which only 4x and Dual Slalom were run.

He had both disciplines and even though the courses were not on some giant hillside everyone had a blast.

 

[merft]

Todd,

Thanks for taking what had turned into a constructive thread and turning it back into the trollfest that it started as. Your views on MX are well known. Maybe it's time you reflect that your attitude towards this topic may be why some of us feel that it's better not to have a voice on the NORBA board than have such a bigoted voice as yours.

The reality is that regardless of your views the UCI has both DH and MX events at World Cups, not DH and DS. You cannot take riders who compete only in DS and expect them to compete on a MX stage. If I remember correctly UCI came down on NORBA over this and now REQUIRES the US to qualify riders on MX courses for the Worlds.

If you truly believe in DS, then put your money where your mouth is and sponsor a local DS series. Do not, however, interfere with those of us who are trying to do the same in MX. There is a place for both events in MTB.

 

[Zdenek Pol]

If dual slalom was the preferred gated racing discipline we'd very well see increased participation on the amateur and pro level at least here in N. America. This would in itself push sales. If it were adopted at a WC level and the DH heroes also raced DS, you might also expect a bump from sales there as well; assuming that the endemic media (print, web, & video) would be more apt to cover it.

-ska todd

If... it would... if... this is all you did for your liked DS. What did you do for dual slalom? I can't wait to see how your animosity against 4X helps to make DS better...

 

[Zdenek Pol]

...I have been the one making the calls & emails asking for more coverage and in general the response is not very warm or favorable...

This is funny... 4X hater making calls asking for more coverage... What a surprise that the response was not very warm... Kind of schizoid fantasy.

 

[Zdenek Pol]

... Jasen knew I am opinionated and that my arguments might be controversial but they will be grounded in fact. Did it get you and others to think? The article then accomplished it's goal and the magazine did it's job to draw readers. While something might not be your viewpoint doesn't make it "$hit". That sounds like American political discourse, not what I expect coming from the other side of the pond

Man, what you write is nothing than best example of politicians speech. Not a single argument, no facts, few lies... perfect hater's biased mixture. Yes, it gets me to think... How proud must by Polc for riding a 4X bike made by 4X hater?

 

[General Lee]

If... it would... if... this is all you did for your liked DS. What did you do for dual slalom? I can't wait to see how your animosity against 4X helps to make DS better...

This is funny... 4X hater making calls asking for more coverage... What a surprise that the response was not very warm... Kind of schizoid fantasy.

Man, what you write is nothing than best example of politicians speech. Not a single argument, no facts, few lies... perfect hater's biased mixture. Yes, it gets me to think... How proud must by Polc for riding a 4X bike made by 4X hater?

sounds like this is the point in the discussion where the 4x kids can't play nice in the sandbox so they take their ball and go home.

If you want to have an open discussion about 4x you better get ready to absorb some criticism if you expect to be taken seriously. especially if, as i understand it, you are one of the guys behind the '4x Alliance.' EC, Jared, Joost, Phil, Scott, and Chris are doing a great job being advocates, providing details, and clearing up misconceptions. You are coming across as a brat.

 

[General Lee]

Todd,

. . . If you truly believe in DS, then put your money where your mouth is and sponsor a local DS series. Do not, however, interfere with those of us who are trying to do the same in MX. There is a place for both events in MTB.

You mean like the one Iron Horse (Todd) sponsored at Mt. Snow for 3 years?
http://www.yourmtb.com/ironhorsedownhill

 

[Zdenek Pol]

I registered at Fourcross-Alliance, and I’ll gladly keep you informed about what’s going on in Switzerland in terms of new courses to be built.

THANK YOU! Not only for joining the Fourcross Alliance but all above for facts you provided us with (btw. what is your name?).

It is not easy to build a good 4X track but the Czech Republic is the classic example that it is possible even with almost no budget. 500.000 / 60.000 / 10.000 EUR budget for building a track makes me laugh! Those enthusiasts behind Czech local tracks maybe spent for their tracks 10.000 but CZK which is like 400 euro... haha. It is all about passion, devotion and hard work. Quite simple, isn't it, you theorists?

 

[Zdenek Pol]

sounds like this is the point in the discussion where the 4x kids can't play nice in the sandbox so they take their ball and go home. If you want to have an open discussion about 4x you better get ready to absorb some criticism if you expect to be taken seriously. especially if, as i understand it, you are one of the guys behind the '4x Alliance.' EC, Jared, Joost, Phil, Scott, and Chris are doing a great job being advocates, providing details, and clearing up misconceptions. You are coming across as a brat.

Criticism is all right when well-founded. The problem I have with Mr. Seplavy's posts is the lack of facts and creative ideas. All the guys you mentioned, including me, have some past experiences with DS. It was great and still it is for both local events and selected pro races. I really don't see any single problem in keeping both disciplines alive. Even I think DS exhausted itself at the World Cup level but I'd never say "I hate DS". Here in the Czech Republic we are currently in the middle of an intensive brainstorming themed as "would DS help 4X with grassroots program?". I believe it could. Beside the Czech 4X Cup we also have two more hobby/rookie oriented series. This year, organizers of the Czech 4X League included DS into the series ranking. Most of the CFL weekends were combined of DS on Saturday and 4X on Sunday. It resulted in following situation... Less or the same number of riders in DS compared to 4X but surprisingly not the same names. DS attracted few more downhillers plus a few DS old schoolers but almost no rookies. Just facts. I don't know all reasons but it was like this...

 

[stiksandstones]

Man, what you write is nothing than best example of politicians speech. Not a single argument, no facts, few lies... perfect hater's biased mixture. Yes, it gets me to think... How proud must by Polc for riding a 4X bike made by 4X hater?

Zdenek...you make a fair point, but...to the best of my knowledge, Todd S is the product manager for GT bicycles.

 

[iRider]

Here we go!

http://gobmx.com/pi/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=58&Itemid=56

Not a side show to DH.

 

[JaredGraves]

Been away from a computer for a few days, so ive just skimmed through the past 6 pages, but just wanted to bring up a few quick points.

on bike sales-

Yeti as a company has grown every year, and their biggest years of growth have been since they havn't had an XC race program at all. Yet the most sales are in their XC/AM range. Yeti only ever made limited amounts of the 303DH, certainly not enough for the company to suprvice on selling that product alone. Their investment in the racing program is much more about brand image, not to make sales on a single gravity product.

They have stated many times that they focus on the gravity events as they are the events that put the bikes through the most abuse, and require the most technology and thought to get right, which helps development off ALL the bikes in the range.

Having a world cup DH and 4X team and projecting a good brand image is what sells the bikes across the board, which is we are all have worked hard to do. I always make myself approachable to all people at any time, even if ive just had a bad race and im feeling a bit pissed off.

For a company to say that they dont want to sponsor a 4X rider because they wont sell enough of the particular product that rider is using is potentially a bad move on their behalf. If the rider is marketable, then sales will increase in all areas, surely you can't deny that.

4X in media.

Video - with CP being the team videographer for many years I know his decision to focus just on DH at world cups was down to his feelings that his vidoes would be far too long and be far too much effort, for his finacial return if he were to include 4X and film it how he would want to. He's a bit of perfectionist, and doesn't want to half ass anything.

It had nothing to do witha dislike for 4X in any way. DH is just bigger, so you would be silly not to focus on that, if you had to pick one. Its not that he doesnt want to put it in. I would say this is the case with many of the main video makers.

But your right, there are no 4X vidoes going around, I wish their was, but no video producer is making bank off selling their vids, they all do it because of a passion for DH, so as soon as their is a video producer with a passion for 4X im sure we will see a video.

I think Clay has also set a bit of a mould for video production, in that he only films DH, his are the benchmark, so every other producer has copied his vidoes in that way.

Magazines - I think the 4X coverage from the major mags has been quite good lately. except for a couple (that I wont mention, but its not hard to know who) that have editors that all have a dislike for 4X. What better way to do their bit to put down 4x than to leave it out from their race reports. They might have other reasons for not reporting on it, but I guarantee their personal dislike is a reason for leaving it out. That is also just their persoanl opinion on it, it doesn't mean it is not worth reporting on.

 

[JaredGraves]

Key points I feel that need to be brought back to peoples attention.

- 4X is growing, maybe not so much in the US, but everywhere else its looking up.

- I think we have now got some passionate people around who really want to see 4X take off, and as mentioned many times in this thread, that is a very important ingredient for success.

- Most Top DH riders Wouldn't race DS at world cups.

- 4X has potential to be massive, if its done right and people get behind it more and stop their single minded egos getting in the way.

 

[Bob Burnes]

First I should say that I'm a huge fan of 4X so my opinion on this sport is biased. I don't have any issues with any other discipline in mountain bike; I believe that each one takes courage, strength, determination, and passion for our bikes. Which is, after all, the one common denominator in all of this. We all love to ride our bikes.

I haven't had much time to read each of the 4X posts, but I will. For now let me say that I had the privilege of racing in National Points Series in the United Kingdom for a couple of years and I'm addicted to the sport. Yes, some of you are right-there is carnage, crashes, blood, and bruises. There's shady passes, collisions, and a whole lots of elbows in there. It can be intimidating, but it's also extremely exciting. This is, of course, an opinion and obviously realitive to the person's view point of what I consider to be on the of the most exciting sports in mountain bike.

I for one would love to see 4X grow and bloom in the US. I watched the UK scene grow and grow and it will continue to develop and the riders we see coming out of the UK now are proof of their 4X evolution. There's no reason we couldn't generate the same excitement and design bigger and better 4X courses than any where else in the world. We are only limited by our imaginations and desires.

If you haven't raced 4X before I would certainly encourage you to. You don't have to jump in the pro ranks and go toe to toe against the worlds best. There are beginner rankings and plenty of pros putting on clinics to help you improve your riding.

Let's not dismiss a sport like 4X. I fact, let's not dismiss any sport that allows us to race our bikes regardless of bike design. I'm not a fan of XC racing or Cyclo-Cross, but I would never dream of starting a petition to remove those sports as a recognized sport of attempt to defeat a series from getting off the ground and growing to the largest most competitive series on the planet. In fact, I'd rally behind it. Why? Because they're just like me-they love to race their bikes (even though they shave their arms).

So instead of dissing a sport that you may or may not have tried, how about get behind the organizers of this awesome biking discipline and help get the US 4X scene not only up and running, but alive and well and not only alive and well, but thriving and growing and evolving into the series I know it can be?

I know JD is getting the final ink onto the Pro Gravity Series which will have 4X events scheduled and I know, for one, I'll be pounding on the war drums to get as many riders involved as possible.

 

[Bob Burnes]

Key points I feel that need to be brought back to peoples attention.

- 4X is growing, maybe not so much in the US, but everywhere else its looking up.

- I think we have now got some passionate people around who really want to see 4X take off, and as mentioned many times in this thread, that is a very important ingredient for success.

- Most Top DH riders Wouldn't race DS at world cups.

- 4X has potential to be massive, if its done right and people get behind it more and stop their single minded egos getting in the way.

Excellent points. We just have to get behind our fellow riders period. 4X isn't BMX. I'm not saying it's bigger or better. It's different for sure and I'm sure it's got some similarities, but I guess the same thing could be said for all cycling sports.

We have so much potential in the US. There's tons of space, land, and pro talent to develop our 4X program into something EPIC.

I'm going to rally behind the Pro Series and local series and get the word out as much as possible. If you don't have a 4X bike and you want to try this awesome sport out, let me know. I'll let you borrow one of mine all day for the event.

 

[Zdenek Pol]

Zdenek...you make a fair point, but...to the best of my knowledge, Todd S is the product manager for GT bicycles.

My appologize to Todd if I am wrong but I think we both are right, Stik.

Anyway, Todd, reading this makes me confused... "Being on the Norba Board of Trustees, Todd will assist Norba in better promoting the sport within the bicycle industry by showing other companies the benefits to be reaped from going out and supporting the racers. Todd’s additional goal is to help promote and grow the disciplines of downhill, 4X, and dual slalom racing within the US racing community. Norba needs to embrace freeriders and dirt jumpers to grow the talent pool of younger racers to sustain the sport within the US for years to come. Finally, Todd’s aim is to put the aspect of “fun” back into Norba mountain bike racing that originally sucked him into the sport over ten years ago!"

 

[Mudstud]

@ Zdenek Pol

My name is Laurens van Rooijen, and I'm working as a freelance bicycle journalist in Switzerland, for newspapers such as NZZ am Sonntag, different magazines (Outdoor Guide, SAZ Bike) and of course for the German speaking webzine www.frontlinemag.net. From 2000 to 2004 I was the editor of the Swiss MB magazine, called MOVE back then.
Apart from that I have been writing/editing a 74-pages thick brochure on how to make bike-related projects a reality, from the very first steps of finding people with the same interest and contacting officials to thoughts on building and maintenance. This brochure is paid for by the bfu, which is an agency in Switzerland that plays an advisory role on all aspects of safety, be it in traffic, at work or when practicing sports. Brochures of this kind I feel are very important because everybody wants to swing a shovel and create a course out in the dirt (at least, if it's not raining non-stop), but keeping in contact with officials, land owners and various stake holders can be a pain as much as collecting all the forms and data needed to get a permission to start building. The brochure is more of a step-by-step guide on how to proceed to make sure the project stands - and does not have to be torn down because some stake holder had been forgotten and puts in his veto.

One thing on ska_todd, Zdenek:
I dont think he hates 4cross, even if he said so in his column. That column was a polemic piece of text, and the first sentence that you got so angry about was there to attract the readers - it's a simple journalistic trick. As you mentioned, Filip Polc represents the same company as Todd in 4cross, so there is no boycot for 4cross on behalf of Evil Bikes or anything like it.

Yes, ska_todd thinks that Dual Slalom is the way to go rather than 4cross - and indeed there is some shortcomings and some issues about 4cross that need to be adressed. As far as I have read in the protocol on the 4Cross alliance's meeting in Schladming, a lot of these things have been mentioned.
If Dual Slalom was as good as its fans claim it is, it would have ruled for more than a decade by now. The fact that it got replaced, first by Duel and then by 4cross, hints at some shortcomings that this format has as well.
To me, there's a certain amount of schizophrenia, as I consider pumptracks as the most laid-back way of sessioning on a bike, and Dual Slalom is to me like some kind of parallel pumptrack race on a downslope. Now, who needs a downward pitch on a pumptrack? Who wants to build two parallel pumptracks instead of one bigger one? And who wants to race on a pumptrack instead of having a plain good time riding it? Plus, for people who do not ride bikes, these Dual Slalom courses look way too easy - whereas anyone who rides bikes sees that they are so incredibly tight that they do not allow for any mistakes. That is my main issues about Dual Slalom, apart from the simple fact that its not an accepted race format in those regions where most of the Worldcup races are being held. And no, that's not America anymore. So why should the sport go the "American way" again? So in Europe everybody can tear down those now-useless 4cross courses that have just been built and replace them with some Dual courses? I'm not in for that, sorry. Too many courses and much work lost just to keep some Americans happy.

 

[Boom Boom]

Key points I feel that need to be brought back to peoples attention.

- 4X is growing, maybe not so much in the US, but everywhere else its looking up.

- I think we have now got some passionate people around who really want to see 4X take off, and as mentioned many times in this thread, that is a very important ingredient for success.

- Most Top DH riders Wouldn't race DS at world cups.

- 4X has potential to be massive, if its done right and people get behind it more and stop their single minded egos getting in the way.

Jared has summed up this discussion perfectly. These comments are all true and cannot be argued with.

Just to comment on some earlier posts about 4X bike sales. Jared and others have again got this spot on. World Cup 4X gives companies a great chance to associate themselves with great athletes and raise brand awareness. It is the same with all other sports. You cannot buy James Stewarts YZ, Valentino Rossi's Moto GP bike, Jenson Button's formula one car, Roger Federers tennis racket, David Beckhams football shoes........... I can go on with this all day, but those guys help to sell more Yamahas, tennis rackets etc...

This is what sport is all about. Competition, glory, failure and excitement.

In terms of 4X specific development, taking the UCI ranked top 10 brands and riders: Yeti, Sunn, GT, Author, Commencal, Specialized, Ghost and Rocky Mountain all made prototype frames for their riders: Jared Graves, Romain Saladini, Roger Rinderknecht, Michal Prokop, Dan Atherton, Rafa Alvarez, Johannes Fischbach and myself. None of the bikes that these guys ride can be bought in any shop. But these companies got behind their riders for a few reasons:

1. 4X is a World Cup discipline, and these are the companies that want the pride that goes with winning races
2. 4X as I mentioned before is receiving fantastic media coverage on TV to the outside world
3. This leads to increased brand awareness and increased sales across the whole brand.

Just to add to this, the bike that Jared developed in 2009 on the World Cup, the Yeti DJ is going down a storm worldwide. Also the Fork that Fox have created specifically for 4X - the 831 is one of the most talked about new products of 2010. 4X bikes are the same as dual slalom bikes and in many cases can handlle a fair amount of dirt jumping. These are the bikes that can deal with 4X, slalom, light dh, dirt jumping and general play riding. The markets are there for this.

As the sport grows, more and more products are going to be designed using the input from 4X riders and sold to the mass markets.

Finally, there should be 4X and Dual slalom events. Dual slalom does give riders the chance to experience head to head racing, berms and jumps. The experience of every second counts and the hunger to beat your opponent in head to head competition. These are the characteristics that will produce great 4X riders.

I think this discussion has uneathed just how many people are passionate about 4X from the far reaches of the World. Not sure how many of you look at other websites, but Dirt website: http://dirtmountainbike.com/news/future-4x-2.html are now carring links to this discussion and have started their own on their forum!!

Cheers,

SB.

 

[Cru_Jones]

Really interesting disussion in here. Good to see some big names sharing their thoughts. I hope that the thoughts of an amateur racer, big fan of (nearly) all cycling disciplines, and industry guy are still of any relevance.
To make this clear at the beginning, I am not a 4X hater at all, there are some 4X races I really like to watch and there are sme I would like to riace if they were not that far away. But I also love DS. So I think it should not be 4X vs. DS, as it would be a pitty to see one of them diappearing.
Sorry for mentioning some points that were already disussed previously, 18 pages of discussion are hard to read. But there were some really good points.

4X
As much as I love 4X, I see four big problems with it:
Tracks
4X tracks need a lot of land (with the right dicline), work, dirt and money. This may work for world cup level (but if I understand Phil's posts correct even this is not given), but on a national level it is very hard if not impossible to get a good track. Maybe it works in some countries like in the Czech Republic, but in countries like Switzerland (where I'm coming from) land is so rare and expensive that it is nearly impossible to get a good 4X-track.
Roots
To me 4X seems to be kind of an artificial discipline. It didn't have a long history when it was installed by the UCI as a world cup discipline. I think that is one of the main reasons why there are still a lot of discussions how 4X tracks should look like, it did not developp naturally.
Follow the Leader
Too many races are decided after the first turn and are just about following the leader from the exit of the first turn to the finish line.
Carnage
There are too many races decided by stupid passing attempts, causing crashes. Most of the time the rider is not even penalised for this. Not very surprising though, as there are no clear rules what is allowed and what not (actually it would be very har to define).
BMX vs MTB
I really dont see the point in this discussion. I think BMX is a great sport. I love to watch it and it is really exciting. So if we make it even more exciting by adding gravity and some roughness to it (to make it real "bicycle moto cross"), what is wrong with it? From my point as a spectator view I must say that most of the "BMX-type" 4X tracks (Fort William, Andorra, Canberra, Willingen) were more exciting than the "DH-style" tracks (Maribor, Vigo, Champery). Those DH parts made 4X looking very slow, unasthetically and the flow, which 4X makes so appealing to me, disappeared.
Track Design
There were some really good ideas in this threads, such as the tapered berms or dual section in 4X. Actually some of these things were already built. In Tieschen/Austria (the only 4X race on a national level that I really liked) there is such a dual slalom section (but it was too short to make a difference). This year I also saw pictures of a 4X race in Germany where they had some parallel flagged turns right out of the gate, something I ever dreamed of. I think Jared had some good points as well, such as a short distance from the gate to the first obstacle making the snap even more important and the need for long rythm sections (something I as a spectator would really love) to allow clean passes.
I don't want to offend Phil, but as 4X is still evolving I think it would be good if there were more than just one track builder for more creativity (why not give EC a chance for one WC track?). If the UCI wants to support 4X they should afford one or two "experimental" tracks (such as Aigle for BMX), where new ideas can be tested before they get onto World Cup level.
For me, Fort William still comes very close to a perfect 4X track, it has everything, a long first straight, a lot of opportunities for clean passing, big jumps and flow.

DS
As I mentioned, I love DS, and this for many reasons.
Affordable Tracks
DS tracks need much less land, dirt and machinery than a 4X tracks. This makes it a lot easier to build good tracks, especially close to where people live.
Riding
A good DS track has a lot of flow, huge g-forces and a lot of speed. And all of this with much less scaring big doubles than on a 4X track. So for me as a rider with skill far away from a world cup rider DS normally means a lot more fun. I think Jared and an average skilled XC rider can have fun on the same DS track, and I fear this is not true for a 4X track.
More Riders
I am very sure that DS on long-term view would attract more riders than 4X. I needs less special skills (gate starts, corner tactics, jumping) and is less scarrying. In many countries 4X is really dying at the moment and I fear it will dissapear on a national level because organisers can not afford races with 60 riders and an expensive track. This year in Switzerland's national series I think the race with biggest number of participants was an old school dual slalom on grass! More riders at DS events in the end will also help 4X.
Racing
On a good DS track you can never tell who is in front until they reach the finish line. This makes for me watching DS more exciting than most 4X races. Also as a racer, you have at least 3 runs. In 4X it's quite often for half the riders just qualification and then a lost race from the gate to the first corner and that was it for the weekend.

Still, I can see some problems with DS:
Time
A DS race takes by far longer than a 4X race as there is one round more for the same amount of riders and two runs per round. So I can see this is a problem for tv coverage.
Too complicated
In 4X it is most of the times very obvious who won the race, in DS it is not. Actually, I think there would be a solution for this: In snowboard DS they use individual gates so for the second run the rider who was slower in the first one starts later.
Conclusion
I think it would be very hard (and maybe not the right way) to replace 4X by DS on World Cup level. But still I think tracks need to be improved to allow for really appealing races.
DS I think would deserve a lot more attention than it has right now (at least in europe). Why not installing a international DS series? The are already four races whith much international participation: Seat Oter DS, Crankworx DS and GS, Bikeradar Live DS. Why not add an european mainland DS to it and make it an international DS series? On a national level I think for most countries the way to go should be DS. The best way to do good in 4X (and maybe in DH and DS as well) anyway is to race BMX, 4X on national level tracks does not help much.
So in short: 4X for the World Cup Racers, DS for the People.

PS: @EC: You asked how big DS in euope was before dual and 4X. I can tell you it was very big in Switzerland compared to 4X nowadays, 3 times more participants and the winner of the national series won a car!

 

[Mudstud]

PS: @EC: You asked how big DS in euope was before dual and 4X. I can tell you it was very big in Switzerland compared to 4X nowadays, 3 times more participants and the winner of the national series won a car!

That must have been the legendary times when SWATCH was the big sponsor and everybody was queuing to put some money into the sport as well.
Too bad, but those times are long gone, and comparing 4cross in today's precarious economic situation to Dual in that goldrush-like era is not fair.

By the way, are you aware that Powerbike Winterthur is set to build a 4cross course this winter? That's going to be right at the outskirts of a city, which sounds very promising to me.

And another by the way: As the Swiss racing series is a medley of Dual, Duel and half-baked 4cross on BMX tracks, this does not serve as an argument for any format. It rather shows that even Dual is no guarantee for grass-roots success. But most of all: When was the last time you've seen one of Switzerland's top 4cross racers compete in a race of the national series?

My bottom line is that it comes down to a philosphical question:
If you're confronted with problems during an evolutionary process, how do you react? Do you go back to something that seems to have worked in the good old days, or do you see the problems as a challenge and a reason to further push that evolution forward? One way of reacting gets you an i-Pod, the other gets you back into a cave, painting deer figures on a wall... I do not consider myself a wannabe-caveman.

 

[kOlsen]

Like a lot of you guys mentioned earlier in the thread, I think it would be great for 4X (world cup) to have someone like EC working together with Phil Saxena, with help and input from the riders.

The UCI needs to put more money into 4X to help it grow and evolve.

 

[stiksandstones]

the thread is working
4x in america!! http://www.pinkbike.com/news/washington-4x-series-2009.html

 

[Mudstud]

the thread is working
4x in america!! http://www.pinkbike.com/news/washington-4x-series-2009.html

Well, most of all half of the comments posted are from people whining about the fact that the race is on a BMX track and not on a full-size worldcup 4cross track with a pitch, rock and log sections, drops and stuff like it (Hello? Ever thought about the question whether such a track fits under a roof?).

Speaking about "make the best of what you've got" and "the glass is half-full": This seems to be hard to adopt for spoiled brats that are only in once the infrastructure is perfect.

 

[ska todd]

Typically I would quite a quoted/referenced reply to the above posts but seeing that it is now 2-something in the morning and I have been traveling for over 24 hours, I will try to keep this short and sweet (yeah, not so typical of me but seeing that long winded replies are the norm in this thread...)

re: Trolling - Tis not I who is the troll in this case. Of all of the comments made here so far, that is the only one I take personal exception to. It was Chris himself who "called me out" on twitter to reply to this thread. If you guys do not want a proper debate of the issues then do not effectively ask me directly to comment.

I have been an active participant of this particular message board for over eight years and have 1700+ posts. I respect new comers and encourage pros like Jared, Joost, & Scott and those like Zdednek, Chris, & Laurens to join in but newbies here, as in any other forum, should not expect any special treatment or status simply due to their name, sponsors, or races won. Experience counts but, explain and document that experience. Writing a lot or yelling more does not make your point any more valid.

As those who know me well can attest, I enjoy lively, vibrant, and spirited discussion on a wide range of topics. Quite often I like to discuss topics of theory and am a collaborative thinker when it comes to projects. I am vocal and passionate and expect those who engage with me to be as such too. However, also realize that I like to debate and encourage thinking in both directions. I like to float trial balloons and sometimes will play devils advocate to push individuals to see how concrete their ideas are.

re: 4X vs DS vs NOTHING - While the 4X Alliance has decided to focus their attention on a couple of individuals posting here in this thread who are advocates for DS at a higher level, they may have entirely missed the real battle. It is NOT vs the likes of Mickey, decline magazine, or myself. If anything we are the moderates in this scenario. We are the ones who are still supporting gated racing!

There are those who are quietly calling for and working actively behind the scenes to nix ALL gated racing at the World Cup level. These are team managers, pro athletes, sponsors, and venues who have the ear of the national federations and the UCI much more so than I ever could. The realities of that happening are WAY more realistic than dual slalom being implemented quite truthfully. In Sun Tzu style, know your enemy.

re: Bike sales - We have all tossed around the idea in this thread that somehow there are some magically huge sales of 4X/dual slalom or even DH bikes. But in reality folks, I have seen the numbers from several major brands in the market. They are not that big. Really. Seriously. (ps - Due to confidentiality I would not be at liberty to discuss those numbers so please do not ask here or by PM as I cannot and will not share them.)

We collectively (myself included) like to think of our gravity sports as something huge or "the next big thing" but really, we are in our own little bubble. We are an echo chamber. We should be more worried about "all mountain" racing or Super Enduros/Megas than about debating the merits of 4X vs DS. That is where the movement in the market is now and that is collectively the bigger threat to our sponsor budgets and race support at corporate level and within the industry.

On other notes, I actually picked up the phone/facebook chat and talked to a couple pros regarding this topic of Friday. One of them had actually read the thread a little. His rather cheeky reply was "They just don't want slalom because then they'll be forced to race against the fast guys." I'm sure his reply was a bit tongue-in-cheek but maybe there is some truth there This same WC DH pro said he'd be way more apt to race slalom at a WC then 4X because it was "fun" and "less chance of binning your season".

Another, a pro woman, simply said "4X has driven women away from our sport". Asked to elaborate she explained that the girls are scared to hit the big jumps, the contact is intimidating, and it's just too testosterone fueled. We haven't even brought up this line of thinking here in this discussion but, it is quite valid and should be considered.

When all is said and done, do I personally think 4X is bad? Yes, I think it is inherently flawed. Do I personally think dual slalom is a better option? Yes, I think so by comparison. Would I accept some modifications to 4X to keep a gated racing discipline at the World Cup level (even if that discipline was not dual slalom)? Yes, more so if the only other option is none!

Let's be crystal clear here. I love you guys like brothers. I will still share beers with you and think you are fine people. We simply have a political difference. I'm a professional buyer and a rational thinker. If you show me a good case to buy your product I will get behind it. I might haggle over the price but once I buy it I don't like to have buyers remorse

-ska todd

 

[Bob Burnes]

This is what sport is all about. Competition, glory, failure and excitement.

None of the bikes that these guys ride can be bought in any shop. But these companies got behind their riders for a few reasons:

1. 4X is a World Cup discipline, and these are the companies that want the pride that goes with winning races
2. 4X as I mentioned before is receiving fantastic media coverage on TV to the outside world
3. This leads to increased brand awareness and increased sales across the whole brand.

Just to add to this, the bike that Jared developed in 2009 on the World Cup, the Yeti DJ is going down a storm worldwide. Also the Fork that Fox have created specifically for 4X - the 831 is one of the most talked about new products of 2010. 4X bikes are the same as dual slalom bikes and in many cases can handlle a fair amount of dirt jumping. These are the bikes that can deal with 4X, slalom, light dh, dirt jumping and general play riding. The markets are there for this.

As the sport grows, more and more products are going to be designed using the input from 4X riders and sold to the mass markets.

Finally, there should be 4X and Dual slalom events. Dual slalom does give riders the chance to experience head to head racing, berms and jumps. The experience of every second counts and the hunger to beat your opponent in head to head competition. These are the characteristics that will produce great 4X riders.

I think this discussion has uneathed just how many people are passionate about 4X from the far reaches of the World. Not sure how many of you look at other websites, but Dirt website: http://dirtmountainbike.com/news/future-4x-2.html are now carring links to this discussion and have started their own on their forum!!

Cheers,

SB.[/QUOTE]

Well put, Scott!

I love this discussion and I'm glad to see so many pros putting in their thoughts and ideas. I'll tell you what-instead of reading and posting and reading and posting, I'm going to rally behind the 4X flag and support our new gavity series here in the US. Go to:

www.pinnedmtb.com for more information.

Talk doesn't build national/world tracks. Hard work, sweat, and dedication do-remind you of anything else?