[4xBoy]

New shock from cane creek.

Tigon: The Air-Charged Coil Shock

Tigon is an entirely new DB Twin Tube shock that combines the sensitivity of a coil shock with the tunable support of an air spring. Shop now!

canecreek.com

 

[William42]

Seems kinda cool, I've been bouncing back and forth between a kitsuma air and a coil on my enduro bike, coil feels better on the chunder and grippy side of things, but the air feels better once I start riding faster and pushing deeper into the travel and need more ramp up. Could be a winner if they nail the progression and place where it ramps up. Probably gonna need a bit more maintenance though. I know they opened up service to anybody that wants to do it themselves, but needing a nitrogen charge and with generally being kind of a pain to service as is, might be annoying. Hopefully the air spring is easily user serviceable.

 

[jonKranked]

interesting concept. would be curious to try it for sure.

 

[norbar]

Imho I don't see the point. For a well designed frame you don't need more support or bottom out resistance. Is this for people who have bought a VP-Free or an Orange 223 in 2023?

 

[Nick]

I think my old Stratos Helix utilized a similar design. I'd be curious to hear more about this.

 

[4xBoy]

Marketing requires something new always, good or bad.

Not sure if I want one or not.

I really like coil, but I do like a little bit of platform.

 

[William42]

Imho I don't see the point. For a well designed frame you don't need more support or bottom out resistance. Is this for people who have bought a VP-Free or an Orange 223 in 2023?

Probably depends a bit on the bike.

The fact that the HSR is internally tuned (and higher) than the kitsuma seems promising, as it's pretty nice to have a fair amount of HSR on progressive bikes/shocks, and it'd be cool if they could hit a sweet spot. I know most folks using HSR on their kitsuma were maxing it out, and it was a similar story on the DHX2 I was recently playing with on a rental.

If you're riding a YT that already has a pretty dialed leverage rate, main benefit this brings is additional HSR and I'm not sure how worth it that is.

But if you're on something like any number of other bikes that are sitting on 10-15% progression, this is probably pretty sweet.

 

[Redwood Mulch Chucker]

Stratos Helix FTW!

Seeing that it is coming from Cane Creek, I would expect similar reliability issues.

There is still a coil spring somewhere off of Butcher Ranch trail in Downieville from a Stratos Helix Pro I was running that lost the piston assembly from the damper shaft mid run and exploded in spectacular form.

 

[Jm_]

Whats old is new and moar expensive again!

 

[Westy]

Seems complicated and possibly the worst of both worlds. What about just an IFP chamber that let's you adjust rates between 50lb spring increments.

 

[Sandwich]

beat me to it. I like the idea of moar progreshunz but agree that this seems like the worst of both. Air can seals and coil spring weight. I guess it's nice to have another option though.

 

[norbar]

Probably depends a bit on the bike.

The fact that the HSR is internally tuned (and higher) than the kitsuma seems promising, as it's pretty nice to have a fair amount of HSR on progressive bikes/shocks, and it'd be cool if they could hit a sweet spot. I know most folks using HSR on their kitsuma were maxing it out, and it was a similar story on the DHX2 I was recently playing with on a rental.

If you're riding a YT that already has a pretty dialed leverage rate, main benefit this brings is additional HSR and I'm not sure how worth it that is.

But if you're on something like any number of other bikes that are sitting on 10-15% progression, this is probably pretty sweet.

Yeah but that's just HSR not the other features. HSR i totally get. Also I'd not call YT leverage dialed. Less progressive bikes most of the time make more sense. YT suspension makes more sense for the bikeparks mainly

 

[kidwoo]

One born every minute


best iteration I know that actually worked achieving the same thing

 

[slyfink]

Matt Beer went and did some back to back testing: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-cane-creek-tigon-the-air-charged-coil-shock.html

apparently meant for bikes with low progression, and with clevis-style shock links. also almost 2x the weight of Kitsuma, and not meant for DH bikes.

I get what they're trying to accomplish, but that seems like a lot of "buts". Then again, I have no interest in this, so I will refrain from commenting further.

 

[Jm_]

best iteration I know that actually worked achieving the same thing

Thats why it had to die.

 

[Jm_]

Matt Beer went and did some back to back testing: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-cane-creek-tigon-the-air-charged-coil-shock.html

apparently meant for bikes with low progression, and with clevis-style shock links. also almost 2x the weight of Kitsuma, and not meant for DH bikes.

I get what they're trying to accomplish, but that seems like a lot of "buts". Then again, I have no interest in this, so I will refrain from commenting further.

So like for a trail bike that i want to run a coil and keep light with an in line coil, but extra heavy instead.

 

[Kanye West]

One born every minute


best iteration I know that actually worked achieving the same thing

What?

 

[Redwood Mulch Chucker]

Yeah, I feel like there isn't much need for this shock anymore.

Leverage curves and progression and good on most bikes to the point you can run a coil if you want.

This is for the 2010 Specialized Endruo, where the leverage curve was such that there was no way to run a coil without smacking bottom all the time.

 

[Redwood Mulch Chucker]

One born every minute


best iteration I know that actually worked achieving the same thing

Completely different idea. They are not changing IFP volume/pressure, but have a teeny air spring in there along with a standard IFP or bladder.

 

[kidwoo]

Completely different idea. They are not changing IFP volume/pressure, but have a teeny air spring in there along with a standard IFP or bladder.

well aware

fox had a better system for achieving what they're trying to do

 

[SuspectDevice]

Circa 2005 I had a race truck tuned 5th element with the spv removed that basically functioned the same way. Made those 10” of Sinister R9 rear travel really dang stable

 

[Andeh]

I dunno, I feel like it does have a place on some of the modern bikes that are only moderately progressive, especially ebikes. I've got a Spec Levo, and tried running an EXT Arma on it. Even with HBO cranked up and running pretty low sag, it was easy to bottom it out. I put on a Cascade link, and even then it was still easy to bottom out with coil. Now I'm running the Cascade link with a SDU air shock with HBO and max tokens, and it finally has a pillow landing.

There's a fair number of other modern bikes that aren't super progressive that are yoke driven (SB150, Ripmo) that could benefit from it.

That said, in my limited time on the Vivid so far, I feel like it does the same thing. And I'm guessing the EXT Aria shock could probably be set up for those bikes pretty well also.

 

[Kanye West]

well aware

fox had a better system for achieving what they're trying to do

Those two are not even close in objective or implementation.

 

[Dogboy]

apparently meant for bikes with low progression, and with clevis-style shock links. also almost 2x the weight of Kitsuma, and not meant for DH bikes.

I guess you mean the Kitsuma Air? It's a wee bit lighter than the Kitsuma coil shock and well, it's a coil shock and they aren't light in general. I don't see that stopping a lot of folks from putting coil shocks on trail bikes.

 

[norbar]

Those two are not even close in objective or implementation.

They literally stated the main objective here is mid stroke support and progression. So how is the main objective different outside of HSR which is a rather niche problem and not the main selling point here.

Also again how many modern frames really have leverage curves that suit something like this? We are no longer in the Sunday, Banshee Legend MK2 days. A simple linear but not very progressive frame won't benefit as much as those old frames from this unless someone bought a linear enduro frame to use it on jumps and then is confused why that was a bad bike choice they are now trying to fix with a shock (ie. the Off Road Porsche 911 idea).


Also people just get a custom avy shock and be done with it.

@Andeh on non super high sag you bottom out that bike? With a cascade link it's no less progressive than plenty of bikes considered not easy to bottom out. Are you E-Bendering that bike?

 

[Andeh]

They literally stated the main objective here is mid stroke support and progression. So how is the main objective different outside of HSR which is a rather niche problem and not the main selling point here.

Also again how many modern frames really have leverage curves that suit something like this? We are no longer in the Sunday, Banshee Legend MK2 days. A simple linear but not very progressive frame won't benefit as much as those old frames from this unless someone bought a linear enduro frame to use it on jumps and then is confused why that was a bad bike choice they are now trying to fix with a shock (ie. the Off Road Porsche 911 idea).


Also people just get a custom avy shock and be done with it.

@Andeh on non super high sag you bottom out that bike? With a cascade link it's no less progressive than plenty of bikes considered not easy to bottom out. Are you E-Bendering that bike?

Yeah I ran as low as 26% sag without the Cascade. With it I was at 28% (575# spring). I'm not that heavy, maybe 172 lbs geared up, but I wouldn't discount a lack of skill and tendency to case/land rear wheel first.

 

[William42]

One born every minute


best iteration I know that actually worked achieving the same thing

No joke. I have one of those puppies on my DH bike and dont intend to ever change it. Fox peaked with that shock.

 

[norbar]

Yeah I ran as low as 26% sag without the Cascade. With it I was at 28% (575# spring). I'm not that heavy, maybe 172 lbs geared up, but I wouldn't discount a lack of skill and tendency to case/land rear wheel first.

Bottoming on a case is not something a suspension should save you from. It's a problem when you bottom it out when riding without large mistakes. Hell I managed to bottom out frames with a lot of progression on cases and that much progression costs you when you are not making mistakes.

@William42 was there a 2nd gen after the 2010 release? As I remember mine had some damping issues. I still remember it fondly but it was not a perfect shock.

 

[troy]

No joke. I have one of those puppies on my DH bike and dont intend to ever change it. Fox peaked with that shock.

+1
Back to the topic:
1)Get some bullshit, stupid expensive bike with shitty kinematics, because why not.
2)Try 3 different shock, springs, tunes and god know what else to fix it.
3)Slap super expensive shock on it.
4)Be happy.
5)Or just get a descent bike in the 1st place.
6)Naaah, F*** that ^ and go to 1)

Just like @Jm_ said, we are reliveing early 2000s once again.

 

[Jm_]

Soon someone will invent a position sensitive damper.

This doesnt seem all bad, but its a band aid for those bikes that were F-ed from the factory for coil shocks because every bike company went to air shocks to save money and spend every year since trying to convince us that they finally made an air spring work as well as a coil.

And yeah, noticed I have to have the HSR on the IL pretty much maxed to do anything useful there and make the shock actually “dampen”.

 

[kidwoo]

+1
Back to the topic:
1)Get some bullshit, stupid expensive bike with shitty kinematics, because why not.
2)Try 3 different shock, springs, tunes and god know what else to fix it.
3)Slap super expensive shock on it.
4)Be happy.
5)Or just get a descent bike in the 1st place.
6)Naaah, F*** that ^ and go to 1)

Just like @Jm_ said, we are reliveing early 2000s once again.

the bike and pharmaceutical industries mimic each other more and more every year

 

[Lelandjt]

Yeah but that's just HSR not the other features. HSR i totally get. Also I'd not call YT leverage dialed. Less progressive bikes most of the time make more sense. YT suspension makes more sense for the bikeparks mainly

I loved my Capra's suspension with a coil shock. Not with an air shock.

 

[Lelandjt]

well aware

fox had a better system for achieving what they're trying to do

Didn't that system change compression damping based on position (moar near bottom out), not spring rate? I guess the new version of that is the HBO on Rockshox and EXT (the EXT Arma on my Surron feels great).

 

[kidwoo]

Didn't that system change compression damping based on position (moar near bottom out), not spring rate? I guess the new version of that is the HBO on Rockshox and EXT (the EXT Arma on my Surron feels great).

There were two iterations, the boostvalve stuff and the one or two year runs of the one I posted. I think the boostvalve attempted to do that. If I remember correctly, I think it ran a needle up in the LS compression jazz, mounted to the floating piston so it moved with the shock shaft. This in addition to being able to change the air chamber volume. So moving the adjuster also increased/decreased the pressure on the needle in the transfer port. Something like that. Maybe redwood remembers the exact system. I just know they only worked well on horribly non-progressive bikes that had other issues going on too.

The one I posted was just the 'bottom out control' which was just air pressure and chamber volume. The first few being the 'big shaft' versions because they wanted to keep them really progressive feeling...which worked on some bikes, some not. The skinny shaft rc4 was the golden ticket for most well designed bikes.

 

[jstuhlman]

There were two iterations, the boostvalve stuff and the one or two year runs of the one I posted. I think the boostvalve attempted to do that, and worked about as well as most attempts at position sensitive damping. If I remember correctly, I think it ran a needle up in the LS compression jazz, mounted to the floating piston so it moved with the shock shaft. This in addition to being able to change the air chamber volume. So moving the adjuster also increased/decreased the pressure on the needle in the transfer port. Something like that. Maybe redwood remembers the exact system. I just know they only worked well on horribly non-progressive bikes that had other issues going on too.

The one I posted was just the 'bottom out control' which was just air pressure and chamber volume. The first few being the 'big shaft' versions because they wanted to keep them really progressive feeling...which worked on some bikes, some not. The skinny shaft rc4 was the golden ticket for most well designed bikes.

PAGING @Udi ... @Udi to the white courtesy phone please...

 

[kidwoo]

Didn't that system change compression damping based on position (moar near bottom out), not spring rate? I guess the new version of that is the HBO on Rockshox and EXT (the EXT Arma on my Surron feels great).

I don't know much about the exts but if this is the current layout, I don't see anything that would indicate anything position dependent damping, just that secondary piston on the shock shaft that only comes into play at bottom out

That's a pretty friggin weird design. Guess that's more sophisticated than a conical bumper, LOL


Their moto line looks sick

 

[Kanye West]

No. The RC4 had another valve in series with the base valve whose stiffness (well, preload and cracking pressure) was a function of the ambient oil pressure, and consequently the IFP pressure, and consequently the position of the shaft. Then for a couple years they removed that valve and it was like any other shock with a normal needle/stack/spring adjuster in the bridge plus an IFP depth/pressure adjustment.

Different mechanism, different effect. One has a static only effect (spring) the other has a dynamic effect (damping, plus some spring). Probably some stupid marketing jargon overlapping however.

 

[sethimus]

They literally stated the main objective here is mid stroke support and progression. So how is the main objective different outside of HSR which is a rather niche problem and not the main selling point here.

Also again how many modern frames really have leverage curves that suit something like this? We are no longer in the Sunday, Banshee Legend MK2 days. A simple linear but not very progressive frame won't benefit as much as those old frames from this unless someone bought a linear enduro frame to use it on jumps and then is confused why that was a bad bike choice they are now trying to fix with a shock (ie. the Off Road Porsche 911 idea).


Also people just get a custom avy shock and be done with it.

@Andeh on non super high sag you bottom out that bike? With a cascade link it's no less progressive than plenty of bikes considered not easy to bottom out. Are you E-Bendering that bike?

uhm, for all those bikes they offer links (and the many more ppl want them to make one for too)?

Mountain Bike Performance Upgrades | US | Cascade Components

Mountain bike kinematics experts bring your mountain bike maximum performance on the toughest terrain. Shop MTB links, chain guides, and brakes.

cascadecomponents.bike

 

[Happymtb.fr]

The RC4 had another valve in series with the base valve

Yes, the infamous boost valve. Kidwoo is referring to the last iteration of the RC4 with a thin shaft and no boost valve where the size and pressure of the IFP chamber could be adjusted to slightly increase end of stroke spring rate. It was called "air assist"

Using the DHX RC4 Air Assist
Use the Air Assist to fine tune spring rate and progression
Air Assist in the DHX RC2/RC4 shocks can help you fine tune your spring rate. You can adjust both Air Assit pressure and Air Assist rate.

Air Assist pressure is used to help fine tune spring rates.
Increase Air Assist pressure up to the maximum of 200psi to increase overall spring firmness.
Decrease Air Assist pressure down to the minimum of 125psi to reduce overall spring firmness.

Air Assist rate changes the progression of your spring rate.
Decrease Air Assist volume by turning the blue Air Assist Rate knob clockwise to increase spring progressivity (ramp-up).
Increase Air Assist volume by turning the blue Air Assist Rare knob counter-clockwise to reduce spring progressivity (more linear).

SHOCK- 2014 DHX RC4/RC2 | Bike Help Center | FOX

www.ridefox.com

 

[Kanye West]

Yes, the infamous boost valve. Kidwoo is referring to the last iteration of the RC4 with a thin shaft and no boost valve where the size and pressure of the IFP chamber could be adjusted to slightly increase end of stroke spring rate. It was called "air assist"

SHOCK- 2014 DHX RC4/RC2 | Bike Help Center | FOX

www.ridefox.com

Correct. "Slightly" being the key word there. About the same reasonable range of effective spring force adjustment as any other piggyback shock on the market in the last 15 years or so. The new CC already has an IFP that provides a gas spring also, so it has 3 springs working in parallel (1 coil, 2 gas).