I'm currently running 823 rims with 2.5 Michelin tires. Tube in the back, tubeless up front (no sealant). I went to this setup after slicing 5 tires in 5 consecutive weekends at races on rocks. It works great.
Tubeless Ponderings & Poll
- Thread starter Damo
- Start date
I really don't get this,and hope I don't experience it. Te tracks I ride are rocky,and I'm a bad line picker. I am only 67kg though. How heavy are you? I'm guessing it's the rocks you ride,are they freshly broken up or something? I ride sanstone and quarts and granit,never had a tear(touches wood). Would you not have flatted anyway with a tube(possibly a lot more),can you not patch the tyres?
Yeah on my Lahar and BMW Racelink,both do have rearward axle paths, but I still smash the **** out of rocks, my rims have rock marks from when the tyres bottomed out and the rocks have gouged the rim,even on the side walls there's marks from rocks along the tyre and then gouging onto the rim.
It is a lot to do with the high pivots though.
I am a fan of UST but for many reasons there's for's and against!
I think the biggest benefit is in smaller volume light walled tires where you can get lower volume better tire shape, and same with trail up to 2.3, above that the advantages are still there just to me not as great.
Then it depends what type of rider you are a set and forget rider sticks with one set of tires, then UST is a good option find the psi balance that works for you and should rarley have issues, but then subjective to what where you ride, brand type of tire etc.
I still prefer UST 2.3 down, Im tubed again above that, mainly because the lack of:
UST tire options!
I change tires allot! esspecially for DH, I have four sets of tires for our changing conditions and on any day it could be light rain to deep mud to dry, even some course's can be like this in the morning and hard pack in the afternoon!
If I had multiple sets of wheels then I'd probably re look at UST for the big bikes and go Michellin just because they still lead the UST tire way imo..
I'l like to try my 2ply minions with sealant, maybe not stans though, there are many other sealant options out there now and Ive found some way more cost effective here and better on the tire long term.
I'd probably go the ghetto 20" tire option myself, stans rim strips Im over, and I agree pity the maxxis strip was wasted, it was great only got one to test unfortunatley, cheap and best Ive used to date, DTswiss strip's Ive had mixed results!
UST should have taken off more but the industry imo has not followed through on this accross enough tire sizes and causes more frustration with people than anything else, setup is something that takes time to get used to, so in the end I guess tubes are still easier for most people to live with.
So many variables, in the end I think you just have to be prepared to experiment and try these things yourself, esspcially when racing, sometimes what works for others dosn't neccesarily work for you or vice versa, but you'll never know until you try, then try different settings, psi, combo's etc.
chur..
I think the biggest benefit is in smaller volume light walled tires where you can get lower volume better tire shape, and same with trail up to 2.3, above that the advantages are still there just to me not as great.
Then it depends what type of rider you are a set and forget rider sticks with one set of tires, then UST is a good option find the psi balance that works for you and should rarley have issues, but then subjective to what where you ride, brand type of tire etc.
I still prefer UST 2.3 down, Im tubed again above that, mainly because the lack of:
UST tire options!
I change tires allot! esspecially for DH, I have four sets of tires for our changing conditions and on any day it could be light rain to deep mud to dry, even some course's can be like this in the morning and hard pack in the afternoon!
If I had multiple sets of wheels then I'd probably re look at UST for the big bikes and go Michellin just because they still lead the UST tire way imo..
I'l like to try my 2ply minions with sealant, maybe not stans though, there are many other sealant options out there now and Ive found some way more cost effective here and better on the tire long term.
I'd probably go the ghetto 20" tire option myself, stans rim strips Im over, and I agree pity the maxxis strip was wasted, it was great only got one to test unfortunatley, cheap and best Ive used to date, DTswiss strip's Ive had mixed results!
UST should have taken off more but the industry imo has not followed through on this accross enough tire sizes and causes more frustration with people than anything else, setup is something that takes time to get used to, so in the end I guess tubes are still easier for most people to live with.
So many variables, in the end I think you just have to be prepared to experiment and try these things yourself, esspcially when racing, sometimes what works for others dosn't neccesarily work for you or vice versa, but you'll never know until you try, then try different settings, psi, combo's etc.
chur..
agreed on the soft tubeless tires. even at decent pressures, my maxxis ust fold over a bit when you really slam them into berms. michelin do have a nicer feel to them. pity they are such a bitch inflate.
how can you complain about choice when the whole maxxis range is tubeless? then there is michelin, hutchinson, even intense tires can be used tubless with out much fuss.
how can you complain about choice when the whole maxxis range is tubeless? then there is michelin, hutchinson, even intense tires can be used tubless with out much fuss.
I sure was. That didn't last too long though! I experienced slices on both the sidewalls and inbetween the treads. They would be roughly a 1/2 inch long and stans would not fill it up, just keep squirting out every single time. Every time its been on rocks, and after putting a mid-weight tube in, I stopped flatting. I can't explain it really since I weigh almost nothing.
Honestly I never pinch flatted, it was all gashes in the tires. Maybe it was a stretch of bad luck, I'm not sure...but I'm keeping a tube in the back from now on..
Unfortunately, 721s are some of the few rims that don't work well tubeless. If you do try them you will need to build up the interior of the rim with a couple of layers of velox rim tape. Even after that they still don't hold tubeless as well as 729, 5.1, MTX, and others.
Two years ago I built up some 823's and mounted some 2.5 Kenda Nevegal DH tires with Stan's. They seemed to work great initially, held air great, no pinch flats, no punctures and then I took them to Whistler. Every time I rode up there that year I got little punctures that the Stan's would not fill. At first I thought I had not added enough Stan's but even with adding double the recommended amount I still had problems. Nothing worse then ripping a trail and then all of a sudden getting gooey, white liquid shooting all over you and the bike. I ended up just riding tubes after several tries for the rest of the year.
This last year I decided to switch to UST tires and give tubeless a shot again. I mounted up some Maxxis Minions UST with some Stan's a have had zero problems. Just as many days at Whistler plus lots of riding all through the interior of BC and the local stuff without ever having to do anything but check tire pressure every now and then. At the moment I am sold on Maxxis UST tires and will be continuing to run this setup until something better comes along.
This last year I decided to switch to UST tires and give tubeless a shot again. I mounted up some Maxxis Minions UST with some Stan's a have had zero problems. Just as many days at Whistler plus lots of riding all through the interior of BC and the local stuff without ever having to do anything but check tire pressure every now and then. At the moment I am sold on Maxxis UST tires and will be continuing to run this setup until something better comes along.
Besides that they don't offer the 40 a SRY and 3C compounds, don't offer the Swampthing, don't offer the Ardent, don't offer the 2.4 ADvantage, don't offer the 2.35 Larsen TT etc. in tubeless you are right, it is their whole range.
i probably weight less then you, and i get that once in a while. thats a tubeless pinch flat alright. instead of the tube getting pinched and getting snake bites, its happening to the tire.
its comes down to running the right pressures. bad ones make two holes in the tire, one on the tread, and one just above the bead. can be fixed with a patch kit, but still annoying.
good to know that the 5.1s didn't last long, still so much conflicting info on whether they are better now or not. still think they are the same exact rim.
iRider, i was talking about the whole range for dh. here are the swampthing's that you said dont exist: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=9483
and honestly, i dont see the need for the different compounds. the added traction tubeless gives is a far greater advantage then what the small changes in compounds will give you.
Interesting its not on Maxxis website as UST but clearly is there in the UK, UST in STs are unavailable here though so would have to be an online purchase not worth it for me!
All Maxxis DH UST versions, HR/Mins/ are 42s ST anyway so that compliments the UST and is super grippy, 42a is my fav for front tire..
The issue for me is I need to be able to change tires on the day on the same wheel set, I have 3 front rims 20mm so I can get away with setting up 3 tire options, Dry's I always run minions, I may look at the 42a ST in future if the slow rezzy super tacky is no longer available in standard form, my fav tire for front, as I can only see it in ST now!
But I would need at least one more rear 150x12 rear wheel setup to go fully tubeless and save tire hassles, for me in DH the traction up front is more important, I would have to test out the pro theory on side wall flex, probably couldn't produce the force they do though and a true UST DH tire is stiffer than a standard tire anyway so Im not sure if theyre talking UST sidewall flex vs standard tire with sealant flex, the Honda team have run tubeless for some years, was a fav of GMs!
One area UST would help is in the wet you could possibly get away running longer in wet conditions on standard USTs before switching to wets than a standard tubed tire
All Maxxis DH UST versions, HR/Mins/ are 42s ST anyway so that compliments the UST and is super grippy, 42a is my fav for front tire..
The issue for me is I need to be able to change tires on the day on the same wheel set, I have 3 front rims 20mm so I can get away with setting up 3 tire options, Dry's I always run minions, I may look at the 42a ST in future if the slow rezzy super tacky is no longer available in standard form, my fav tire for front, as I can only see it in ST now!
But I would need at least one more rear 150x12 rear wheel setup to go fully tubeless and save tire hassles, for me in DH the traction up front is more important, I would have to test out the pro theory on side wall flex, probably couldn't produce the force they do though and a true UST DH tire is stiffer than a standard tire anyway so Im not sure if theyre talking UST sidewall flex vs standard tire with sealant flex, the Honda team have run tubeless for some years, was a fav of GMs!
One area UST would help is in the wet you could possibly get away running longer in wet conditions on standard USTs before switching to wets than a standard tubed tire
with maxxis tires and floor pump, two tires can be changed in under 10 mins. maybe 5 mins with some practice.
maxxis ust tires are much softer then other ust tire offering from michelin and hutchinson. definitely softer then their tubed dual ply tires (of course they are stiffer then single ply tires, but who uses them for dh?) slightly stiffer tire + tube, much stiffer tire.
brendog was running tubes while on honda. i think tubeless compliments smoother riders, gm being the text book example of this.
in wet conditions, not really. no point trying to stay on dry tires for longer, proper tires for each condition still give a much bigger advantage.
maxxis ust tires are much softer then other ust tire offering from michelin and hutchinson. definitely softer then their tubed dual ply tires (of course they are stiffer then single ply tires, but who uses them for dh?) slightly stiffer tire + tube, much stiffer tire.
brendog was running tubes while on honda. i think tubeless compliments smoother riders, gm being the text book example of this.
in wet conditions, not really. no point trying to stay on dry tires for longer, proper tires for each condition still give a much bigger advantage.
Showoff...:biggrin:
Oh that's the kiss of death!
I'm running Syncros DS-28's/Stans strips & sealant/2.5 Minion DHF. I've had the Stans with various wheel/tire combinations over the years with absolutely no issues, I'm sold on the system.
Last weekend's race had a wee little rockgarden at the bottom of a g-out section. Tons of people were flatting in there. There were 2 smooth lines through it and everything else was a crap-shoot. I made 10 practice runs with out a problem. Just before my race run, another guy who just flatted came over and asked what psi I was running. I says "28psi, but I'm tubeless and haven't flatted in a couple years"
What other possible outcome could there have been???
Yep, in my race run I must have got a wee bit offline and going a bit faster than in practice and bang, big dent in the front, pushed the bead over and flatted out.
Never, and I mean never f-ing ever, talk about flats before your race run.
This might be why they work so well for me
Why not? Minions work pretty well in the wet here in the PNW. As long as the mud doesn't stick to the tire you are fine. But it so depends on where you ride and the setup of the bike.
BTW: do you also change the suspension settings to get the most out of the mud tires? If you are serious you have to do this.
Well, worst case scenarios
Stan's strips: 30 minutes of reseating and scraping.
UST: new tires never seating.
Ghetto: I have only done it once.
And of course, goo has flown everywhere...
the mud here has a fair bit of clay in it. once the tires are clogged up, you are feked!! most of the time is slick stuff over pretty hard dirt. so you really need a spike tire to dig in.This might be why they work so well for me
Why not? Minions work pretty well in the wet here in the PNW. As long as the mud doesn't stick to the tire you are fine. But it so depends on where you ride and the setup of the bike.
BTW: do you also change the suspension settings to get the most out of the mud tires? If you are serious you have to do this.
suspension set up for mud? no, not really. what do you do? faster rebound more lsc? i already run very fast rebound and a fair bit of lsc on my bike. i have heard different views, some say less lsc, some say more with faster rebound. i dont see the point.
Inflated ready to ride
Can we get that on youtube :biggrin:
Impressive, I rate my tire changing efforts but Im not that quick:biggrin:
Cool dude..
Normally if the trail is muddy and soft I go with a little stiffer setup (preload/air pressure and/or lsc). Pretty much similar to what I run in soft and dry (moon dust) conditions. Just gives you a better feel for what your tires are doing IMO.
I would have thought more rebound damping for mud to stop the tyre breaking traction when cornering,but I just woke up. I guess the tyre'll stay on the ground more with a faster set up.