[Bacardi]

FOX recently had some Shipping issues with getting correct product out the door.

I bet they sent you the wrong stuff.

However, thanks to fox for race support at the Fontana National...

 

[karpi]

damn this is a good thread, I'm thinking of changing my 02 DV at the end of the year for a used Sunday, since Karpiel won't be making any more dv's sucks for them, defenitly buy a new one if they'd still make them

 

[art vandelay]

\

Maybe, sounds like you need to talk with FOX customer service about that. The 5 bikes I have had here with DHX s have been rock solid.

Dave

I put in the progressive reducers with the fox DU bushings and all play is gone. I'm not sure what was up with the fox ones, but all is good now.

 

[worschtsemmel]

this is chris from germany.
is there anybody who can help me to find bearings for my DHR 05.
over here in germany it is impossible to get them and in swiss they are too expensive ($300) i just need the two main bearings. stainless enduro MAX bearings.
maybe here is somebody who can help me.

thanks

 

[ED75]

Hi Chris !

Jus think you should try to contact the French Turner distributor.

http://rspshop.nexenservices.com/

This :

could be yours for 75€.

 

[worschtsemmel]

thank you very much.
i will also ask a local bearing dealer, but i think the dhr bearings are too special to get them there.
i think it does not make any sence to put standard bearings in there, because it wont work out reliably. right?
so i will get them from france.
thx

 

[SwissOne]

hei bockwurst

didn't you read my private message I sent you?

 

[ED75]

Not sure those bearings are so special !!

This said, I recently reconditioned a pair of those things, carefuly putting off the plastic cap, washing them in solvant, and then greasing them and putting back the cap ... like new.

 

[worschtsemmel]

Not sure those bearings are so special !!

This said, I recently reconditioned a pair of those things, carefuly putting off the plastic cap, washing them in solvant, and then greasing them and putting back the cap ... like new.

actually i am not sure weather the bearings are damaged(i do not think so) or something else at the connection between swingarm and mainframe. i put the hole thing apart and watched at the bearings, there was nothing noticeable. so i checkt the main frame and the swingarm. maybe there is a little play between the hole in the swingarm and the screw.. or maybe it is the cups. but i cant imagine because i always close the screw very tight. but there is still a very clear play between swingarm and mainframe but i have no idea for a solution. maybe you have an expierience with that deal.

 

[ED75]

Sure !
It's the only real DHR problem ... it does eat DU bushing too fast !
The bottom one is THE cause.

Here comes the solution : Heavy Duty Mount Kit

 

[worschtsemmel]

the shock cups are all right!

 

[ED75]

Curious !
Mine were dead after a few weeks ...

 

[tidan]

both bikes are fine. but for my is importend how make the bike!
turner dhr is handmade by turner all under one roof, the sunday's are made all in taiwan "they are to expensive for a taiwan production"!!
thats tell my a man from the mountain cycle factory!
i like the philosophie from turner more!!!
and the turner looks more racing and feel pretty fine between my legs!!

I've owned both and if you setup the rear shock on the sunday correctly, it works fantastic! But its really sensitive to spring rate and damping ajustments. 50lb difference in spring rate can make or break the sunday so keep that in mind!

Also, not ALL sundays are made in taiwan. In fact many are US made, including mine! The US made ones will have a "made in USA" sticker on them.

Hope that helps!

 

[Eurotrash]

this is chris from germany.
is there anybody who can help me to find bearings for my DHR 05.
over here in germany it is impossible to get them and in swiss they are too expensive ($300) i just need the two main bearings. stainless enduro MAX bearings.
maybe here is somebody who can help me.

thanks[/QUOTE

http://www.11a.fr/lang/fr/shp_item.asp?OBJ_ID=215478&SSN_CUR=€

 

[tidan]

There is no linkage play on Sundays, and bearing life is very, very good. he only Sundays that ever had an issue were the first 40 or so that went to Australia, NZ, UK in early 2005, and the ones with Progressive shocks with bad tolerance hardware. The bike itself is stiff and relatively maintenence free. Take care of it and it will give you lots of love back.

Dave

Ahhh, urgh...Cough cough, Bull.....
Sorry, but this sort of thing just riles me up. Everyone knows about the linkage play on the sunday. The cat is out of the bag and no one needs to be ashamed or hide the fact. Instead, how about fixing the problem!?!? I love the Sunday for its long downtube, slack geometery, great handling, etc.... But the linkage play is ridiculous. Mine developed it after ONE ride. Ironhorse sent the after market bolt and stuff, but the problem isn't in the shock mount, for me, it is in the central pivot on the upper linkage, i.e. the part that goes thru the seat tube area. The hole that this pivot shaft rests in appears to have ovalized and causes the slop in the rear suspension.
Not only is the slop in the vertical plane, but a little on the horizontal plane too. Upon contacting Ironhorse, then sent out replacement shafts and bearings - which of course do no good because the hole that the shaft rests in is too big now.

Anyways, sorry to open or continue an old thread, but I felt it was worth commenting on so people can hear the truth.

I would love to keep my Sunday, but the slop issue just doesn't seem to be getting addressed and continues to be a problem.

 

[davep]

IMHO all cylindrical fittings like the pivot shaft through the frame, or any pressed in bearings should have some locking compound applied on assembly.

If the slop is not too bad yet, get some loctite 680 or similar and take care of the frame before it is toast...actually loctite 660 will fix/fil up to .02 inch in diameter...that is a LOT.

I use 609 on all bearings, shafts, and similar assemblies on every frame before I ever build it..little work up front saves a LOT of work down the road.

 

[bullcrew]

Buy a Canfield F1 and be done with it.

 

[dw]

Ahhh, urgh...Cough cough, Bull.....
Sorry, but this sort of thing just riles me up. Everyone knows about the linkage play on the sunday. The cat is out of the bag and no one needs to be ashamed or hide the fact. Instead, how about fixing the problem!?!? I love the Sunday for its long downtube, slack geometery, great handling, etc.... But the linkage play is ridiculous. Mine developed it after ONE ride. Ironhorse sent the after market bolt and stuff, but the problem isn't in the shock mount, for me, it is in the central pivot on the upper linkage, i.e. the part that goes thru the seat tube area. The hole that this pivot shaft rests in appears to have ovalized and causes the slop in the rear suspension.
Not only is the slop in the vertical plane, but a little on the horizontal plane too. Upon contacting Ironhorse, then sent out replacement shafts and bearings - which of course do no good because the hole that the shaft rests in is too big now.

Anyways, sorry to open or continue an old thread, but I felt it was worth commenting on so people can hear the truth.

I would love to keep my Sunday, but the slop issue just doesn't seem to be getting addressed and continues to be a problem.

What year is your bike? Did you ride it with loose pivots?

There should be no play in your bike. If you have play, you have either damaged it, or the bike had a manufacturing issue. I have yet to see a bike produced by SAPA with any sort of manufacturing issue.

I have NEVER seen a Sunday with an ovalized upper frame pivot hole. I can't even imagine how one would do that. To me this says that you either rode with the pivot loose, or the front triangle has an obviously defective manufacturing issue. Have you brought this to Iron Horse's attention? I ask because typically someone lets me know when they see a new and different failure and I have not heard of this.

I can't help you buddy. I am just the designer, I don't even work for IH but I wish you the best of luck. I suggest you contact them.

 

[tidan]

What year is your bike? Did you ride it with loose pivots?

There should be no play in your bike. If you have play, you have either damaged it, or the bike had a manufacturing issue. I have yet to see a bike produced by SAPA with any sort of manufacturing issue.

I have NEVER seen a Sunday with an ovalized upper frame pivot hole. I can't even imagine how one would do that. To me this says that you either rode with the pivot loose, or the front triangle has an obviously defective manufacturing issue. Have you brought this to Iron Horse's attention? I ask because typically someone lets me know when they see a new and different failure and I have not heard of this.

I can't help you buddy. I am just the designer, I don't even work for IH but I wish you the best of luck. I suggest you contact them.

Yeah, I contacted them and they sent me the new pivot shaft and a set of bearings (the bearings don't even fit the sunday so I didn't use them).

I didn't ride it with loose pivots. I'm very anal about checking pivots, rotor bolts, spokes, etc before each ride.

Its a 2006 US made frame.

It actually makes logical sense to me why the pivot ovalizes...any compression force, especially bottoming, gets focused in that central pivot area. When the shock is fully compressed the force is applying heavy amounts of pressure on the the pivot shaft.
Everyone I ride with or have encountered on the trail that has a Sunday has the same problem! Some thought it was play in the shock eyelet before I pointed out the play was coming from the central pivot shaft.

So that there is no confusion, here is an image with an arrow pointing to the problem pivot:

...and yes, I know the cables are routed wrong, but I didn't want to disassemble the bike to reroute them. ;-)

 

[MDJ]

I didn't ride it with loose pivots. I'm very anal about checking pivots, rotor bolts, spokes, etc before each ride.

Wow...I have never checked pivots, rotor bolts, spokes, etc before each ride.

I'm doing good if I lube the chain and check tire pressure once a month, and wash my bikes once a year.

 

[Rob Munro]

Wow...I have never checked pivots, rotor bolts, spokes, etc before each ride.

I'm doing good if I lube the chain and check tire pressure once a month, and wash my bikes once a year.

oh my god, this post just made me shudder.

 

[MDJ]

oh my god, this post just made me shudder.

Hey man, it's the whole "if it aint broke, don't fix it" thing. It seems like the people that obsess over their maintenance end up having the most problems.

I've seen quite a few crank arms fall off on rides over the years because people check the bolts before every ride and don't know how to do it right, among other things.

 

[tidan]

Okay, now this is messed up! I called Ironhorse and they told me that I'd have to BUY new pivot hardware because they only cover the pivots for 6 months after purchase. Seems to me if there is a flaw in the manufacturing (which there obviously is) they should cover the pivots till they fix the problem!?
I was told the reason they only cover the pivots for 6 months is because of the rigors of Downhill take a toll on the pivots and that EVERY downhill bikes goes thru pivots in a year! WHAT!!! I have a 2001 M1 that I have beat the crap out of, broken the rear stays, cracked the front section, jumped a 75 foot step down on, rode in countless muddy locations.....And never once had to change the pivots! And I'll bet if I did, Intense would happily give them to me for free.

I'm very disappointed with the behavior of this company. Great geometry, great cornering bike, but very shady and unwilling to rectify problems that are their responsability!

Sorry Ironhorse, I think until you re-prioritize the customer, I'm going be sending my clientel elsewhere!

 

[nmn25]

75 foot step down

I want a pic!!!

 

[tidan]

I want a pic!!!

Sorry, didn't have a camera with us the day I did it.
I do have a crappy picture of the shorter version of the same jump which was around 45~50 feet but you can't see much as its a back shot.

 

[sbabuser]

Hmm, I've never had any issues with IH sending out replacement parts for known issues. And Tidan - if it is your frame that has an ovalized pivot hole, why are you asking IH for new hardware? Also, out of the 10-15 Sundays that ppl I know have, NONE of them have an issue with that pivot. I smell something fishy...

 

[funkendrenchman]

Sorry, didn't have a camera with us the day I did it.
I do have a crappy picture of the shorter version of the same jump which was around 45~50 feet but you can't see much as its a back shot.

Let's see it. I'm curious what your version of 50 feet is. If I were gonna hit a 75 foot step down, I sure as hell would make sure someone had a camera.

 

[tidan]

Hmm, I've never had any issues with IH sending out replacement parts for known issues. And Tidan - if it is your frame that has an ovalized pivot hole, why are you asking IH for new hardware? Also, out of the 10-15 Sundays that ppl I know have, NONE of them have an issue with that pivot. I smell something fishy...

I smell somthing "fishy" in that you supposedly don't know anyone with the pivot issue. I know and work with many people in the industry and the Sunday pivot issue is an ISSUE!

And as far as warranting the frame, Ironhorse said they might or might not have a frame to give me and that it will be whatever color they have laying around and that its possible that they'd only replace the front section.....They couldn't give me any specifics. And being that we have several trips still planned for the rest of summer, I don't want to risk being without a bike!

 

[tidan]

Let's see it. I'm curious what your version of 50 feet is. If I were gonna hit a 75 foot step down, I sure as hell would make sure someone had a camera.

Being that our trails are full of large jumps its nothing special. We have countless pictures of jumps on our trails that are in the 40 foot range. This one was just a spur of the moment thing.

This shot is really poor and you can't see the landing at all. This one was around 45 feet (measured with a contractors tape measure for accuracy). The 75 footer landing is another 30 feet down.

 

[dw]

I smell somthing "fishy" in that you supposedly don't know anyone with the pivot issue. I know and work with many people in the industry and the Sunday pivot issue is an ISSUE!

I also know and work with many people in the "industry" I also know more about the structure of your Sunday frame than any one else in the world. Although you may have a 2006 Kinesis USA built frame with a manufacturing issue, there are hundreds of these bikes on the market and this is the first of this problem that has ever been brought up to my knowledge. I can tell you for certain, that there is little to no possibility that you could have ovalized your 15mm diameter frame pivot through just riding. The pivot bolt itself is designed to shear well before that would happen, and the amount of force that it would take to do that is higher than the shock itself can withstand. I have watched (and have video of) a 5th element shock literally explode during a Sunday impact test with zero frame damage. Like I've recommended before Tidan, call Iron Horse, calmly and completely explain your issue, and see what they can do for you. If you truly have a front triangle with a manufacturing problem then IH will work to help you out in my experience.

Just trying to help out a fellow rider.

Dave

 

[yearoftiger]

Being that our trails are full of large jumps its nothing special. We have countless pictures of jumps on our trails that are in the 40 foot range. This one was just a spur of the moment thing.

This shot is really poor and you can't see the landing at all. This one was around 45 feet (measured with a contractors tape measure for accuracy). The 75 footer landing is another 30 feet down.

Is that in the bay area? looks like carlmont DMC

 

[tidan]

I also know and work with many people in the "industry" I also know more about the structure of your Sunday frame than any one else in the world. Although you may have a 2006 Kinesis USA built frame with a manufacturing issue, there are hundreds of these bikes on the market and this is the first of this problem that has ever been brought up to my knowledge. I can tell you for certain, that there is little to no possibility that you could have ovalized your 15mm diameter frame pivot through just riding. The pivot bolt itself is designed to shear well before that would happen, and the amount of force that it would take to do that is higher than the shock itself can withstand. I have watched (and have video of) a 5th element shock literally explode during a Sunday impact test with zero frame damage. Like I've recommended before Tidan, call Iron Horse, calmly and completely explain your issue, and see what they can do for you. If you truly have a front triangle with a manufacturing problem then IH will work to help you out in my experience.

Just trying to help out a fellow rider.

Dave

Thanks Dave. However, I did call Ironhorse and posted the reply I got earlier in the thread here. I was very dissapointed that they only warranty the pivots for 6 months and wanted to charge me for new pivot hardware. As I stated earlier in the thread, Ironhorse told me that pivots don't last more than 6 months on a DH bike anyways....Which is why I brought up my M1 from 2001 which still has the original pivots and has had no pivot problems even after countless large jumps.
They too said the pivot couldn't be ovalized and offered to sell me the pivot hardware instead.

I don't have a micrometer or other tools to measure the pivot hole, I'm going on observation only, in my assertion that its ovalized. But regardless, the shaft no longer fits tightly in the hole. Replacing it with a new one reduces the play/slop slightly but its still there.

I was able to eliminate the lateral slop by fabricating some washers which sit between the inner bearing race in the linkage and the frame (over the pivot shaft of course).

Dave, like I said before, I really really really like the geometry and cockpit layout of the Sunday and that is the reason I continue to struggle with the linkage problem. Otherwise I would have just written up a crappy review and unloaded the bike in favor of somthing else.

I really wish Ironhorse was as attentive as you are being with this issue!

Thanks!

 

[MikeL]

Tidan,
It was me that you spoke with, and what you are saying here is not how our conversation went . You said you ordered a replacement pivot and that it had wore out already. When I asked you for you order # you said you didnt have one. You then told me you ordered this pivot part almost a year ago. I then explained to you, that at this point you would be out of the warranty period for the pivots on your bike. I offered to sell you a replacement pivot kit and when I told you the price, suddenly your frame was ovalized I explained to you that you have a 1 year frame warranty and we could take back the bike and inspect the pivot to see if it was indeed ovalized. You did ask about colors and I explained that we cannot always match the color of the bike. This is out of my control as often times they paint the warranty frames a different color this way if there are future problems we can distinguish them easier. it is like this for most of the industry. You asked if we replaced the whole frame of the just the front. If the only warranty issue is with your front frame, then that is what we replace. I know in my time at my bike shop before IH If we had another manufacturers bike with a frame issue and it was full suspension, just the defective portion of the frame was replaced. So if you had a bad chain stay, you got a new chain stay. This is how it is throughout the industry. I can tell you in my time here I have not seen a Sunday with ovalized pivots. I have however, in my time at the shop scene other bikes with ovalized pivots and the only way this happen is one of 2 ways: One, is if the bike is ridden with the pivots worn out for an excessive period of time. 2nd way is a true manufacturers defect.

With this said, if you feel your frame is ovalized, please contact me directly: MikeL@Ironhorsebikes.com

I will issue you a return authorization # for your frame and if we find that the pivot is ovalized , and you have your proof of purchase, and its been less then one year from the date of sale. We will replace the frame under warranty

Thanks
Mike L
Warranty/Tech Support/Customer Service.

 

[tidan]

Tidan,
It was me that you spoke with, and what you are saying here is not how our conversation went . You said you ordered a replacement pivot and that it had wore out already. When I asked you for you order # you said you didnt have one. You then told me you ordered this pivot part almost a year ago. I then explained to you, that at this point you would be out of the warranty period for the pivots on your bike. I offered to sell you a replacement pivot kit and when I told you the price, suddenly your frame was ovalized I explained to you that you have a 1 year frame warranty and we could take back the bike and inspect the pivot to see if it was indeed ovalized. You did ask about colors and I explained that we cannot always match the color of the bike. This is out of my control as often times they paint the warranty frames a different color this way if there are future problems we can distinguish them easier. it is like this for most of the industry. You asked if we replaced the whole frame of the just the front. If the only warranty issue is with your front frame, then that is what we replace. I know in my time at my bike shop before IH If we had another manufacturers bike with a frame issue and it was full suspension, just the defective portion of the frame was replaced. So if you had a bad chain stay, you got a new chain stay. This is how it is throughout the industry. I can tell you in my time here I have not seen a Sunday with ovalized pivots. I have however, in my time at the shop scene other bikes with ovalized pivots and the only way this happen is one of 2 ways: One, is if the bike is ridden with the pivots worn out for an excessive period of time. 2nd way is a true manufacturers defect.

With this said, if you feel your frame is ovalized, please contact me directly: MikeL@Ironhorsebikes.com

I will issue you a return authorization # for your frame and if we find that the pivot is ovalized , and you have your proof of purchase, and its been less then one year from the date of sale. We will replace the frame under warranty

Thanks
Mike L
Warranty/Tech Support/Customer Service.

How is what you are saying here any different (basically) than what I've said?!? And now you are suggesting that I'm lying about the pivot ovalization!? Wow. The pivot didn't magically ovalize while talking to you as you are implying. I ordered a pivot kit about 8 months ago to rectify the slop in the rearend problem. The kit did very little to change the slop problem as the slop is primarily occuring in the central pivot on the upper linkage that passes thru the seat tube as I've clearly stated. If the this pivot was not ovalized or otherwise comprimised, why then would I still have the problem and why then would the pivot kit you are trying to sell me not have worked the first time around?!? You can clearly see the pivot moving fore and aft.

As far as the warranty, as I've stated earlier in this thread I have several trips I do over the summer with groups of riders from all over SoCal. Since you couldn't give me a firm answer as to when, what color, if, or how you were going to get me a replacment frame, I don't feel its a good call for me to risk tossing away the money on my pre-planned trips for a possible warranty.

If you re-read this thread you will understand why I asked for a replacment pivot. You and others deny that the pivot on my bike has play and insist it can't be ovalized. However, as explained before, if its not ovalized or otherwise comprimised, why do new pivot shafts fit loosely now?!

The problem with play in that pivot began halfway thru my first ride on it. If you are familiar with the trails we ride, it was after "worldcup/eco" at the top of "noname" at Anderson. So it wasn't the result of riding the bike on a worn out or loose pivot - unless the pivots are considered "worn-out" after 15 minutes of use?!

Perhaps I'm a little bit spoiled by how well Intense had treated me over the years and had come to expect that level of customer support. Never once did they charge me extra for anything. And the one rear strut that I broke, they replaced the same day, same color, no questions asked - even after the frame was out of warranty! When I had bent the shock bolt, Intense next day'd out a bag of three more shock bolts at no charge. They didn't try to tell me that downhill bike pivots only last one season - which obviously isn't true!

My experiences with Turner were similar to Intense. No problems, no limited warranties, no one-season-only pivot stories... Just good rider support.

Anyways, I do appreciate you taking the time to reply, regardless.

 

[jvnixon]

The problem with play in that pivot began halfway thru my first ride on it.

Day1 pivot issues??? I'd have that thing returned and looked at the next day. Anyone knows thats not normal. To wait over a year to say that the frame is ovalized makes me think that the pivot/frame could've been bad and you rode it since 2006 without getting it looked at or replaced.

Why don't you take it to one of your buddies that has the tools to measure it? Do you know Darren @ push or anyone that can measure it for you? Not saying some what you're saying isn't true, but you've provided no proof to any of your claims.

 

[davep]

You cannot expect them to just send you a new front end without seeing yours first....and why would you continue to ride a bike with this kind of issue from day 1 without doing something about it?
If you cannot be without the bike, why dont you go to a good hardware store/bearing supply and get some cylindrical fit adhesive (ie loctite as I mentioned before). This is a simple procedure and will fix the issue at least temporarily (and keep it from getting worse).

 

[Jm_]

IME, a little bit of slop, either in a pivot or the shock bushings, leads to ovalized interfaces. That slop allows the bolt/bushing/axle/whatever to "slam" into the interface with far more impulse than would be possible without slop. Even though this is happening on a very small scale, it doesn't seem to take too long to really F-up the bike. Take a shock bolt for example, lots of manufacturers use long shock bolts and if you bend it slightly, then when it tries to rotate it will bind and wear away the bushing fast, then you got slop, then you start to ovalize things.

You don't have to shear a bolt to ovalize a hole, you just need a little slop in there and then time and force does it's thing.

I absolutely can not stand "slop" in pivots due to my experience with what it does over time.

I've unfortunately dealt with this on many bikes, and this is something that many manufacturers do not address very well.

It sucks because a high end bike is trashed due to this stupid problem. I like the tiny-short shock bolts on my turner, but that is the ONLY bike I haven't had a problem with in this regard, foes, ih, k2, azonic, and others over the year were not designed well in this regard. I'm sure there are a variety of ways to address this, but even with a big axle and big bearings, if that axle is long or if those bearings do not distribute force over a decent amount of area, I'd guess the possibility of ovalization still exists.

 

[Ian Collins]

Is that in the bay area? looks like carlmont DMC

ted williams trails san diego.....nothing that crazy...

 

[davep]

IME, a little bit of slop, either in a pivot or the shock bushings, leads to ovalized interfaces. That slop allows the bolt/bushing/axle/whatever to "slam" into the interface with far more impulse than would be possible without slop...You don't have to shear a bolt to ovalize a hole, you just need a little slop in there and then time and force does it's thing. ..

Exactly!!!
This is the exact reason that loctite makes bearing/cylindrical assembly products. This allows mfg to use tollerances that allow the end user to replace parts (without a hydraulic press) and allows for mfg varitions as well as accomidates wear. A little prevention saves a lot of work and $$ down the road.

(long shock bolts are another issue...although unexcusable IMHO)

 

[1soulrider]

I'm glad I own a Turner.
Watching riders struggle with warranty issues with other manufacturers is painful, knowing how well Turner takes care of it's customers.
No "when did you buy it?" and "where is your receipt?" questions, just "send it in and we will fix it or replace it."