My only suggestion is to do away with the age groups for CAT 1. Fast is fast. The thing I always liked about semi was that it wasn't broken down by age.
USA Cycling new mtb categories
- Thread starter Jester
- Start date
what about the old folks?
not making money for a podium at a national adds depth to the pro field. how can there be no pay out at a national? with all the changes for 09 i hope that pros will actually get money for a podium.
"Before we continue this discussion any more, let me just say that the desire to increase the level of commitment for the pro class is not being driven by the staff of USA Cycling, it's being driven by current pros who want the pro class to mean more than it does now."
is there a super pro class i don't know about? seriously who in pro isn't committed on some level. you make pro sound like joe blow could be competitive. and if one was unchallenged in pro there is always world cups.
"Before we continue this discussion any more, let me just say that the desire to increase the level of commitment for the pro class is not being driven by the staff of USA Cycling, it's being driven by current pros who want the pro class to mean more than it does now."
is there a super pro class i don't know about? seriously who in pro isn't committed on some level. you make pro sound like joe blow could be competitive. and if one was unchallenged in pro there is always world cups.
Well, I figure if ANYONE on this board would "get it" it would be ska todd! Sir, you were able to state succinctly what I have been thinking about this change in CATs in an extremely well-said way that I could not have, and I appreciate it for sure.
What I don't think the unwashed masses realize is this: ALL THE CLASSES will change, as far as who races what. It's not just current semi-pros will shuffle into either Pro or CAT1 and it's a done deal, I feel it's really time for EVERYONE who races to take a long, hard look at where they rank in the overall snapshot of their region, and pick a CAT that fits where they are. No stigmas from the naming convention like "Beginner" or "Sport" or whatever, just a numbered classification.
Which for me means that I really need to swallow my pride and ego and realize that most often I race in the lower half of the current expert field, and the upper 1/3 of the Sport field. Yeah I'm fast enough to justify being in Expert, Heck I'll even top 10 on occasion in both DH and MTX, but most often with work, life, and serious injuries over the past few years keeping the fear of God in me... I am moving to CAT2.
There's my battle cry... A call to action for all the RACERS out there to get OVER yourselves and your pride, and just take a look at where your TIME would place you in the OVERALL for your region, without classes or categories, and race where you should be, not where your ego wants you to be. We're all Sam Hill or Peaty or Minaar in our own minds, but the clock doesn't lie. Think of it this way: You are not downgrading or upgrading to Expert or Sport or Semi or Pro or whatever, you're simply deciding if you're a CAT1 or a CAT2, or maybe you really are fast enough to race Pro. As ska todd said, it's all gonna shake out over the next couple of season anyways, and I also fully believe this to be true.
I've been following this thread a couple of days now, and the common topic people seem to continue to harp on is "Where do I fit in?" or "How does this affect me?" and they say it like it's the end of the world and it's NOT. In the end, it'll all work itself out. In fact, I believe it will be better! It bothers me that we are all so consumed with how the change affects Our Own D@mn Selves, and not how the change could potentially affect racing across the board in the U.S. I've held the belief for years that we have TOO many categories, everyone wants to be special and have their time on the box, and then all of us 'Muuricans turn around and whine about the fact that we don't have anyone fast on a WC level. See the post before from the guy who races in Australia... THREE CLASSES! And wow, Aussies are fast? How did they get so fast? So now, our sanctioning body is DOING something to affect a change to increase the level of competition in the U.S., and we're all too blinded with selfishness to see it. And in full awareness that I will be restating points others have already made, here's why I think it will be better:
- Deeper fields, in all CATs (not just Pro and CAT1). We've been over this before and people seem to be confused about the subject. Will restructuring the classes bring more racers to the races? NO! But if you take the SAME number of racers and divide them into fewer classes then GUESS WHAT?!?!? You have deeper fields! What will bring more racers to the races? Having good races! And what is PART of having good races? Having GOOD COMPETITION, which will hopefully be catalyzed by having DEEPER FIELDS! (You guys see where I'm going with this, right?)
- Beginner racers will have a place to go without the misnomer of being labelled a beginner RIDER. I think this actually will go for ALL classes across the board. People that are Expert in skill but Sport in fitness or race experience won't get all butt-hurt and race up in a class they really shouldn't. Say what you people will about explaining the new class structure to other people, or that no one will understand what CAT2 means, etc. But in THIS country, we get hung up on NAMES and the perception it MIGHT give us.
- PRO class will be more elite, without question. I think this will take a season or two to really happen, but I believe it will happen. With all the Semis shuffling in there with an "automatic" upgrade it's going to get bloated at first, I think partially because there will be a LOT of semis that are going to be TOO PROUD to race an aged CAT, but over time it'll all work itself out. Getting from CAT1 to PRO will be more difficult due to increased competition in CAT1, and the folks going Pro will be really hungry to be there, and really fast.
- It's not just about us, you know. There's this whole entire OTHER side of mtn bike racing that most everyone on this board neglects to ever think about. The Dark Side. CROSS COUNTRY. As good as I believe these changes are for the Gravity side of things, I think they are even BETTER for the Cross Country set. Just saying.
But I don't want to just throw all the responsibility on the shoulders of the racers to make this transition, I know that promoters and race organizers need to "step up" as well.
My battle cry to PROMOTERS: hold great events, increase the cash payout in the Pro field (in some cases, just HAVE a cash payout!), race everyone on the same track (within reason), and have faith in the sanctioning body of racing in the U.S. Gone are the days of the NCS we all knew and love, but we need to get over it and move on. The climate of the economy is different now, with increased costs for EVERYTHING racing all over the country just isn't an option for racers anymore, so to have high-quality regional racing, work with USAC, and make racing GOOD again should be a focus.
Take one trip to a Mountain States Cup race and you'll find start numbers rivaling that of some NCS races from back in the day, full factory support rigs from Fox/Shimano/Hayes in the pits, sweet tracks, a crazy-huge junior field, and a promoter that CARES about racing and seeing it thrive. The kicker? Every single MSC race is fully USAC sanctioned.
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The times between 19-29 and 30-39 aren't any different.
As somebody else alluded to, we live in a world where everybody needs a trophy. They could even split it into 2 groups and have an open and a 40+ vet. Hell, do that for all the CATs.
Agreed. The Vet/masters classes work well on the road. They're usually some of the fastest hard core races of the day.
I'd also like to see promoters working more of the "Open" type classes into events, especially in the Vet/Masters demographic. Not only do those classes work well on the road, I think they're also super popular in motocross and possibly BMX.
Mountain States Cup tried a "Vet Pro/Am Open 35+" class (commonly referred to as "Vet Pro") this year and it pretty much failed miserably, but I think it COULD succeed and be popular.
Number one, with the class restructuring I think there will be a higher demand for "open vet" type classes, and then number two just DON'T CALL IT VET PRO! I think too many "older pros" don't want the stigma as being labeled "vet" (i.e. washed up, unable to hang, etc.) and on the other side even though it's an "open" class, the fast 35+ amateurs didn't want to get in there and bang bars with those guys.
With the exception of the US National Champs, promoters are able to organize "Open" fields at their discretion so long as women aren't racing against men and am juniors aren't forced to race vs seniors.
I reckon the new Cat 1 field will be super strong and fast in a 2-3yr window...more competitive than the current semi or expert fields. It should be a good step forward for amateur racing in the US.
-ska todd
I reckon the new Cat 1 field will be super strong and fast in a 2-3yr window...more competitive than the current semi or expert fields. It should be a good step forward for amateur racing in the US.
-ska todd
I just hope Pro class doesn't get too bloated and USAC is smart about who they let move up into it. But then again.. the more the merrier! lol maybe if we have a field of 150 riders they can fork over some real payout!! Think about it.. if entry fee is 60$ a person x 150 ppl=9000$!!!!! Something is seriously wrong with the whole NORBA thing. If Pro's Don't get real payouts I will not race norbas until they do so. MSC is where its at! And if that's not enough, f*** it i'll go race in Canada or something.
There are a lot of things wrong with American racing these days, Payout is just one of them.
There are a lot of things wrong with American racing these days, Payout is just one of them.
You do know that MSC races are USAC affiliated, no???
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It's been said before and I'll say it again:
Norba/USAC ≠"Norba National"/NMBS/NCS
USAC is the governing body that sanctions bicycle racing in the US. What we all refer to as "Norba nationals" (the NMBS) was run by an independent event promoter. USAC was not in charge of any operations aspect of these events other than sanctioning and officiating. Prize purse for this would be under the direction of the promoter.
USAC has moved toward a National Racing Calendar style system to be the defacto "National Series" for future years. One of the criteria for being on said Calendar is a pro purse. This payout requirement hopefully will increase as each year goes by to ensure that the best quality and most prosperous events are the ones with the best Calendar billing.
-ska todd
Todd, figure you probably had a bit of pull in this so bravo. I'm still going to harp on age consolidation, but this should start to turn things around for sure.
Gravity racing seems to be on the cusp of a renaissance. It is picking up in popularity again (well everywhere but Nationals), the highest level of racing at the WC is receiving more and more exposure, and there seems to be more money being infused into the sport. Like you said, and I will agree with you, this drop of the semi slow class will increase the speed and competitiveness of all classes. I guess my main concern/question is with a new level of dedication and training that will probably result in this increased competitiveness, I suspect there will probably be a resulting increase in general douche-nozzleness. People hating on slower riders on course, yada yada... stuff we saw in the mid-late 90's when gravity racing last hit it big. Are there any plans to combat this in the form of rules or recommendations to promoters for different class practice? I can also see that this may be a turn off to beginners that are just getting into the sport.
I, for one, liked the progression and seeing the possibility of moving up thru the ranks.
A steeper learning curve/ sense of progression keeps me interested longer.
I don't mind moving to cat 2 for xc, anyway. What will this mean for super d? Is it still open/ age grouped?
But whatever, apparently, if you're not pro, you don't have a say in the matter.
A steeper learning curve/ sense of progression keeps me interested longer.
I don't mind moving to cat 2 for xc, anyway. What will this mean for super d? Is it still open/ age grouped?
But whatever, apparently, if you're not pro, you don't have a say in the matter.
MSC is pretty darn good about having separate practice times for different classes, especially when all Cats are running the same track. This was brought about by listening to concerns from the racers, and is primarily a safety issue. MSC has the numbers to support separate practice times, hopefully the same is true for you.
I think with companies like Trek getting into DH, freecaster on the scene, and Todd being given more power things can only go up from here. Of course if gas prices start spiraling attendance may be sparse for any sort of a national series. Not that it seems to bother the Brits...
It does help a bit that the whole of the UK is only 90,000 square miles, though (roughly the same size as the state of Minnesota).
--JP
Well, as a long time road racer, the switchover seemed inevitable.
I am a little sad though that the Cat IV class, which is as far as my talent took me, is not used in the new system. I suppose it simply has to do with field sizes.
Road fields are so large, they have a Cat 5, which is really a beginner class. The only requirement to move up there was doing 10 races (not even 9 victories would upgrade you).
Trust me, my road team knew exactly who was Cat 5, 4, 3, 2, or a 1 on every ride or race. And it did not take novices very long to figure out how the system worked.
On my team, the CVC, the top rider was a guy named Tim Unkert, a Cat 1 who came in 3rd in Nats. Most of the good guys were Cat 2's, and the hard chargers were Cat 3's.
There was one pro XCer, who raced pro in road but was about a mid pack Cat 1 in talent.
What I see is basically the disappearance of the semi-pro class, which I thought of as Cat 2's, but without the status.
I am a little sad though that the Cat IV class, which is as far as my talent took me, is not used in the new system. I suppose it simply has to do with field sizes.
Road fields are so large, they have a Cat 5, which is really a beginner class. The only requirement to move up there was doing 10 races (not even 9 victories would upgrade you).
Trust me, my road team knew exactly who was Cat 5, 4, 3, 2, or a 1 on every ride or race. And it did not take novices very long to figure out how the system worked.
On my team, the CVC, the top rider was a guy named Tim Unkert, a Cat 1 who came in 3rd in Nats. Most of the good guys were Cat 2's, and the hard chargers were Cat 3's.
There was one pro XCer, who raced pro in road but was about a mid pack Cat 1 in talent.
What I see is basically the disappearance of the semi-pro class, which I thought of as Cat 2's, but without the status.
One more difference: most road races break down these age lines:
Juniors, under 18 (big races 15-16, 17-18 and 14 and under).
Senior Men, 18-34
Masters 35+, (big races had 5 year groups)
Juniors were rarely separated by category, and masters sometimes did separate Cat 4/5 races and Cat 3+.
Senior men, depending on the size of the race, could be grouped Cat 3/4 and Pro,1,2; Cat 4/5 and Pro,1,2,3. The biggest races usually did a separate class for 3, 4, and 5; and then grouped Pro,1,2 together. Occasionally you saw a Cat 2 only race, especially before a huge Pro event, but the 1's raced with the pro's unless it was some time of amateur championship race.
Juniors, under 18 (big races 15-16, 17-18 and 14 and under).
Senior Men, 18-34
Masters 35+, (big races had 5 year groups)
Juniors were rarely separated by category, and masters sometimes did separate Cat 4/5 races and Cat 3+.
Senior men, depending on the size of the race, could be grouped Cat 3/4 and Pro,1,2; Cat 4/5 and Pro,1,2,3. The biggest races usually did a separate class for 3, 4, and 5; and then grouped Pro,1,2 together. Occasionally you saw a Cat 2 only race, especially before a huge Pro event, but the 1's raced with the pro's unless it was some time of amateur championship race.
No kidding, its hard to fathom how small European countries really are compared to this one. I knew a British girl in college who was just going to take the bus from WI to CA. We had to remind her that is was 2,000 freaking miles.