[dw]

Last weekend at Worlds I got a chance to visit with a lot of old friends who still travel the WC circuit. I spoke with quite a few riders, mechanics, and teams. It seems like almost everyone has something good to say about the last two races at Windham and Mont Ste Anne. Being born and raised on the East Coast of the USA and riding here more than anywhere else, I was happy to hear that. It got me to thinking, and I posed this question to a lot of people. I know this is not a new idea, but talking with people on the circuit, (mainly riders and mechanics / teams) there certainly seems like a lot of interest in going to Whiteface for a World Cup at some point.

I'm not sure how many of you (especially overseas) know what Whiteface is, it is located in Lake Placid, NY, home of the 1980 Winter Olympics and has some of the longest and roughest runs on the world. Riders talk, and there seems to be a growing respect for the mountain among the WC ranks. http://www.whiteface.com/summer/activities/bike_wf.php

I'd throw out a guess that top times at WC pace could be in the 7-8 minute range depending on the course. Think about that.. 7-8 minutes at that speed?! That's one heck of a test for man and machine..

Now of course there are politics and dollars involved in this type of thing happening, but if there is interest from the riders and teams, and there is interest from the fans, hey, that's a stepping stone.

So my question is simple, would you go to a World Cup at Whiteface? Would you want to see that on Freecaster?

 

[IH8Rice]

wouldnt it be a issue since its on state land and they cant build anything new (IIRC)?

if there was a race there, id be there....and Windham too of course.

 

[William42]

So my question is simple, would you go to a World Cup at Whiteface? Would you want to see that on Freecaster?

Hell ya. Would also love to see one at squaw again.

 

[Pslide]

Sounds awesome, I'd go.

But FYI, UCI states that maximum course length should be 5 minutes. They seem to get around this at Ft. William though, although it depends on if it's based on the fastest time, average time, women's time, etc....

 

[Pslide]

Hell ya. Would also love to see one at squaw again.

Yeah, that is an awesome venue.

 

[IH8Rice]

btw, they also had the 1932 olympics there too

 

[theBigHeezy]

i have seen a number over threads on this discussion before. they have not written off yet from what i heard. what i did hear is these 2 arguements:

1. course length regulations by the uci as mentioned above. (but you can always start a minute or two down the hill, although you will miss some of the best terrian whiteface has to offer.)

2. more importanly, they are focused on getting a world cup ski event in the next few years and have basically said, until the expansion is done and they have secured a world cup ski race, thanks for the thought, but no thanks for now.

thats all i recall about it in the past.

 

[Zark]

I'd love to see the WC stop at ANY American venue.

Its where the sport was born, where much of the industry is headquartered and focused yet there has been not a lot of US races. Why? Greedy promotors? Greedy UCI? (!!!) land access? lack of spectators? I'm sure its a combination of factors, but these need to be dealt with! Seeing the WC at Big Bear years ago was so cool, I'd like to see it again.

 

[gemini2k]

I'd love to see the WC stop at ANY American venue.

Its where the sport was born, where much of the industry is headquartered and focused yet there has been not a lot of US races. Why? Greedy promotors? Greedy UCI? (!!!) land access? lack of spectators? I'm sure its a combination of factors, but these need to be dealt with! Seeing the WC at Big Bear years ago was so cool, I'd like to see it again.

Agreed on all counts. That'd be cool to have it at Whiteface or anywhere in the U.S. Squaw especially!

 

[norbar]

i have seen a number over threads on this discussion before. they have not written off yet from what i heard. what i did hear is these 2 arguements:

1. course length regulations by the uci as mentioned above. (but you can always start a minute or two down the hill, although you will miss some of the best terrian whiteface has to offer.)

2. more importanly, they are focused on getting a world cup ski event in the next few years and have basically said, until the expansion is done and they have secured a world cup ski race, thanks for the thought, but no thanks for now.

thats all i recall about it in the past.

Maribor has done that - the course actualy starts in around 2/3 of the mountain. Schladming on the middle station.

 

[gemini2k]

Maribor has done that - the course actualy starts in around 2/3 of the mountain. Schladming on the middle station.

I think whiteface would need a completely new course. The 5k (which I assume is what everyone is talking about) at least from pics and vids doesn't look anywhere near up to par for a WC course.

 

[dump]

I'd love to see a WC at Whiteface. It's a great mountain with tons of potential, good facilities and rich history.

Bring on the 3000ft vertical DH WC course.

 

[Jim Mac]

I think whiteface would need a completely new course. The 5k (which I assume is what everyone is talking about) at least from pics and vids doesn't look anywhere near up to par for a WC course.

Ride there and you might just eat those words. The top is 1/3 is alpine uber steep.

EDIT: I personally have my doubts about ORDA's (Olympic Regional Development Assoc) willingness to be involved, but I hope I am proven wrong. Being NY state owned, the wheels of progress turn slowly.

 

[captainspauldin]

I'd love to see a WC @ whiteface.. I was just thinking the other day how perfect it is for a WC(Facility-wise)

 

[Jim Mac]

I'd love to see a WC @ whiteface.. I was just thinking the other day how perfect it is for a WC(Facility-wise)

True, there is a ton of capacity there for parking/accommodations, etc.

 

[jonKranked]

I think whiteface would need a completely new course. The 5k (which I assume is what everyone is talking about) at least from pics and vids doesn't look anywhere near up to par for a WC course.

ah, the east coast expert speaks. take heed children

 

[gemini2k]

ah, the east coast expert speaks. take heed children

Ha ha. There is a BIG difference between a grassroots race course and a WC. That being said, I don't think I've seen any trails on the "left coast" that would be WC caliber either :'(. I don't think people in U.S. appreciate how different a WC course is from their local shuttle/resort trails.

 

[profro]

I think it would be awesome at Whiteface. With the exception of some resorts in the Rockies, I can't think of another venue that has WC potential in the US. The initial shot down the slope by WC racers would be insane!!!!!

And to anyone saying they could not have a WC course there, that is bogus. They may need to cut a new one, but the terrain is there.

 

[jonKranked]

Ha ha. There is a BIG difference between a grassroots race course and a WC. That being said, I don't think I've seen any trails on the "left coast" that would be WC caliber either :'(. I don't think people in U.S. appreciate how different a WC course is from their local shuttle/resort trails.

you sure can see a lot from your armchair, can't you?

 

[gemini2k]

you sure can see a lot from your armchair, can't you?

Ha ha, dood not trying to start a flame war here, just saying I've hiked and watched a world's race before, have you? I've ridden east AND west coast resorts, have you? After doing all of those things, it becomes VERY easy to COMPARE the 3, and see that the WC course are completely different than any other of the hundred or so resort and shuttle trails I've seen (on any coast or continent).

 

[jonKranked]

Ha ha, dood not trying to start a flame war here, just saying I've hiked and watched a world's race before, have you? I've ridden east AND west coast resorts, have you? After doing all of those things, it becomes VERY easy to COMPARE the 3, and see that the WC course are completely different than any other of the hundred or so resort and shuttle trails I've seen (on any coast or continent).

yes and yes.


And I agree with your point, ya blowhard. I just like to antagonize you

 

[slyfink]

Ha ha, dood not trying to start a flame war here, just saying I've hiked and watched a world's race before, have you? I've ridden east AND west coast resorts, have you? After doing all of those things, it becomes VERY easy to COMPARE the 3, and see that the WC course are completely different than any other of the hundred or so resort and shuttle trails I've seen (on any coast or continent).

And I've ridden on all three: Les Gets, Morzine, Bromont, Whistler (incl. North Shore, Squamish, Whistler, Pembi). I don't think Whiteface would have any problems hosting a WC on their current track.

Oh, and I'd make the trip down to watch it in a heartbeat.



p.s., DW, you wouldn't happen to know which shops rent bikes w/ DW links in Whistler would you? I want to try one out while I'm there next week.

 

[epic]

The track aside, it's hard to see this ever happening without the support of ORD (which is looking at ginormous budget cuts). I don't know what a WC costs, but it's not cheap. 500K? Having just come back from Mt St Anne, I'll say I wouldn't be surprised to learn that their start ramp cost more than the entire budget for Whiteface's 5K. Then look at risk and reward. Who financially would be taking the risk and would that same entity be rewarded for having a WC at Whiteface?

 

[SylentK]

The track aside, it's hard to see this ever happening without the support of ORD (which is looking at ginormous budget cuts). I don't know what a WC costs, but it's not cheap. 500K? Having just come back from Mt St Anne, I'll say I wouldn't be surprised to learn that their start ramp cost more than the entire budget for Whiteface's 5K. Then look at risk and reward. Who financially would be taking the risk and would that same entity be rewarded for having a WC at Whiteface?

Yep. Peeps gots to remember just because a venue has the terrain for a WC, doesn't mean that place can afford it. I think its kinda lame for UCI to charge that much to bring the circus into town. I believe the cost issue is exactly why Angel Fire didn't bring it back. They actually lost money on the venture, from what I hear. So I do think population density and fan/spectator base is a factor in choosing a repeatable, successful WC venue.

 

[norbar]

Ha ha, dood not trying to start a flame war here, just saying I've hiked and watched a world's race before, have you? I've ridden east AND west coast resorts, have you? After doing all of those things, it becomes VERY easy to COMPARE the 3, and see that the WC course are completely different than any other of the hundred or so resort and shuttle trails I've seen (on any coast or continent).

That only means we need more WC like courses! Dont know about the others but I like the style they are build. Even if they are not uber fast in sections they are always Wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide and have great flow. Why Nats courses in other countries are not always done like that? Every time Im in Maribor I cant stop smiling.
This years cup in Leogang may be an exception

As for the idea of doing a 5k or 3000 vert feet wc course - it is silly. Doing a WC course at full speed (my full speed - so far from what the top dogs do) is really a challenge fitness wise - if we go berzerk with it we will end up with an endurance dh track not a WC track, even if the track was as good as 2 WC tracks connected in one long gnarly dh heaven.

 

[klunky]

Would you want to see that on Freecaster?

Sort of want. It would be cool and all but freecaster would still only have 3 cameras tops and possibly an "extra" non live feed.

 

[FlyinPolack]

I'd love to see a WC @ whiteface!
Or killington!
Or Sunday River!
Or Plattekill!
Or even that other mtn that used to have them. (that shall remain nameless because they suck..)
All of which have been supporting the mtn biking scene all along.
It kinda burns my ass that they would even have it at Windham in the first place. Nothing against the mtn itself but they don't even allow mtn biking.

 

[gemini2k]

That only means we need more WC like courses! Dont know about the others but I like the style they are build. Even if they are not uber fast in sections they are always Wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide and have great flow.

Bingo, not "slow technical".

Why Nats courses in other countries are not always done like that?

Because it's expensive (and almost impossible to get approval for) to clear our huge tracks in the middle of forests on USFS land here. That's why Mammoth would be a sick place for a WC. Huge mountain, challenging terrain, steep enough (maybe?) and a wiiiidddeee open volcano.

 

[gemini2k]

yes and yes.


And I agree with your point, ya blowhard. I just like to antagonize you

Can we bang?

 

[norbar]

Bingo, not "slow technical". I don't get it, you people talk about how tight and technical your trails are, then go on and on about how they are "WC caliber". They are kind of mutually exclusive, no?



Because it's expensive (and almost impossible to get approval for) to clear our huge tracks in the middle of forests on USFS land here. That's why Mammoth would be a sick place for a WC. Huge mountain, challenging terrain, steep enough (maybe?) and a wiiiidddeee open volcano.

I doubt thats really a problem in most places in yurp (you know Im not from Canada or that strange country that south of it ) - WC tracks are 2-3x wider than narrow ones but its still not much wider than some of the hiking trails and it really doesnt make such a differance. Its not like you build a highway. Especialy that in many places that are in forersts they are (or at least feel like it) quite natural.

As for super tech i agree - we have a problem in here with one of the nat builders. He thinks that making trails narrower and with slow tech sections (often dangerous) makes the trail better as it is harder to go fast on it. I dont know who supplies him with logic but If that man also sells shrooms I want some.

 

[snowaddict91]

if it wasn't for logistics, Snowshoe would be the perfect place. Challenging terrain available, they know how to build a course, in my opinion they tape their courses nice and wiiiiide, and they have more than enough lodging. Unfortunately, getting there is so hard, no major airports very close. But whiteface sounds sick, I need to get up there someday!

 

[GingerRider]

I think Deer Valley could be awesome if they built the trail. They have the Venue to handle a WC for sure.

 

[dump]

Bingo, not "slow technical".

Because it's expensive (and almost impossible to get approval for) to clear our huge tracks in the middle of forests on USFS land here. That's why Mammoth would be a sick place for a WC. Huge mountain, challenging terrain, steep enough (maybe?) and a wiiiidddeee open volcano.

I kinda see the point here - leave the forest as is, but we're talking about a trail here - one that can be used in the future for hiking &/or biking, or put put back to nature. Right beside it you have 10+ ski runs completely cleared out all the way down the mountain, so this is a really strange discussion to have.

 

[Hesh To Steel]

To answer DWs question, I would definitely go to a world cup at Whiteface. I've only been to the mountain once, but have been meaning to go back ever since. I don't really understand norbar's point about it turning into an "endurance DH" track. If it's long but challenging all the way down, isn't that a good thing? Aren't we then pushing the limits of the sport in a good way, creating better athletes? Besides, Fort Bill is a long track and plenty of riders say they love it. I don't see that as being an issue, but admittedly, I'm no expert on world cup racing.

If there's a WC race on the east coast within 6 hours of where I live, I'll go.

 

[Eastern States Cup]

If there's a WC race on the east coast within 6 hours of where I live, I'll go.

Agreed 100%

 

[mtnryder]

If there's a WC race on the east coast within 6 hours of where I live, I'll go.

Count me in .

 

[?????]

I think whiteface would need a completely new course. The 5k (which I assume is what everyone is talking about) at least from pics and vids doesn't look anywhere near up to par for a WC course.

They have more than one trail, but aside from that, it is painfully obvious that you've never been there.

 

[downhill mike]

I like this thread!
My guess is 3 more years for our 1st World Cup.

Remember ORDA puts on 4 to 5 WC events each winter.

 

[The Mad Haderer]

having never been to lake placid/whiteface for a race I cant comment other than it sounds like the people that know best think it can support the infrastructure needed for a world cup event. a few other mountains/resorts pop into my mind as for being able to either have WC (having raced a few DH world cups im speaking from experience) terrain AS WELL and be able to support the infrastructure AND be close enough to a major city/airport to attract fans and spectators while not be a logistical nightmare for teams and riders.

Squaw Valley- they had one when there were 15 semi trucks in the pits...proven. proximity to Bay Area as well as Reno Airport.

Northstar- They have an entirely new village the the perk is that they OWN their land. No forest service to deal with! Same proximity as Squaw to major cities

Park City- Olympic support system and plenty of terrain available on of the many lift access hills in town. I rode a jeep race there in 08 and was on a completely different mountain with alot of potential and it was 5 mins from deer valley and 35 mins from SLC.

Vail- Worlds 2001 and 94. Done and done

Snoqualmie- I believe they had a world cup in the past as well but before my time.Seattle close by and some of the terrain available there is unreal!

Whistler- but i doubt they would ever even want one just based on the amount of money they might lose from normal daily park riders during a world cup week.

Durango- Not as tight on the support side of things but that track and venue was and still is one of the most fun and challenging race tracks ever. almost every rider in the US misses that race.

Mt snow- seems like they might have put on a world cup as well and for being a smaller east coast resort and venue they always put on great race tracks(after the yardsale was retired) most world cup riders and teams will agree that was a MANS track. not a horrible drive from NY airports either

Im sure im missing a few but its late and im just feeding into my insomnia of late....

anyone else add any others to the list in the US?

 

[Pslide]

I've got a friend racing Cat 3 at Whiteface this weekend. He said his target time is 10:30. That is definitely endurance DH. Pros are not likely to break 8 minutes it sounds like...

Regarding proximity, this did make me scratch my head at Windham. A couple of hours from the USA's largest city and turn out was "medium" for a World Cup. Most people there were locals or fans. So you'd get that just about anywhere...I think proximity to NYC had almost no effect for Windham apart from semi-convienient airport.