[dhkid]

the main reason is that i am thinking about changing to intense tires, and i cant be arsed with using stans in my ust.

right now i use maxxis, michelin and hutchinson ust tires with out any sealant on 823 rims. they work great.

but somewhere along the line i dont see why tubeless is such a great advantage anymore. i can run slightly lower tire pressures, but i dont see the point of that, a few psi higher wont hurt. i do feel the difference in rolling resistance, but honestly, it means fak all on a dh course.

spending money on ust tires has put a big dent in my wallet.

thinking about going back 721s or try some 5.1s/single tracks/stans ztr flow rims. what do you guys think?

 

[jonKranked]

if you're wallet is hurting, do right by that. just keep having fun on your bike.

 

[Transcend]

The whole "saving tons of rotation weight per wheel" thing.

 

[loco-gringo]

The whole "saving tons of rotation weight per wheel" thing.

I never understood that on down hill though. It seems like heavier tires would roll faster down hill. If gravity makes them climb like sh*t and all. Not sure though.

 

[Zark]

how about "I can't loose a race from pinching my tube" thing?
There's also the better traction and less rolling resistance.

 

[Arkayne]

dh is about going fast and then doing a hard brake and then accelerating again. it'll be less weight to spin around which = more energy for the finish line sprint.

 

[Zark]

I never understood that on down hill though. It seems like heavier tires would roll faster down hill. If gravity makes them climb like sh*t and all. Not sure though.

You have to accelerate all that mass again every time you slow down.
Weight will always matter when you have a 1/4 horsepower engine

 

[dhkid]

the less weight argument goes out the window too. 823 rims are heavy!! so they make up for the tube and isn't there anymore.

 

[ArthurDH]

there was a lsit of weights somewhere on this forum that showed that a tubeless setup was infact lighter but by a very small amount

 

[dropmachine]

I was gonna say the weight of a 721 compared to an 823 is fairly significant. Doesn't that sort of negate the weight benefit?

 

[Transcend]

the less weight argument goes out the window too. 823 rims are heavy!! so they make up for the tube and isn't there anymore.

Agreed. That's why you need to go 721 + maxxis strip.

 

[sethimus]

but where to get a maxxis strip? quit unfindable in my area...

 

[kidwoo]

Reasons you run tubeless

Pinch flats: you can pinch flat a tire but it's harder to do than a lightweight tube

Tire deformation/traction: even at the same pressures, a tire with no tube in it will conform to the terrain better because it doens't need to take a tube along with it to change shape

Rolling resistance: of course it matters.....every where you pedal/coast/pop out of a turn

Personally I've never been able to run tubeless on my dh bike for any length of time because I would split tires. But I've got some maxxis strips I'll be sticking on some 729s this summer to try it again in the hopes that the rim overlap on the strip helps this.

I own two other bikes with tubeless setups and I was sold years ago. The hardest thing is just finding sturdy tires that won't puncture in my experience.

And use sealant. There's no good reason not to.

 

[freakrock]

have you ever tried using ghetto tubeless? you can run them with non ust rims and tyres. That would be a great help for your wallet to heal...

 

[ChrisKring]

do you realize how much intense tires weigh? The 2.7's that I ran back in 2001-03 were 1800 grams. They were impossible to run tubeless even with Stans since the bead was so stiff.

 

[dhkid]

fraser, d5.1 with rims strips would be even lighter. i was considering that before i changed to 823s

kidwoo, sure it makes a difference, but not a big one. i sometimes run cut down wet screams on dry tracks, even tho they roll much slower then say a comp 16 or maxxis high roller, i would be able to ride the track much faster on the wet screams. this isn't even wet conditions.

and if you really want to run tubelss, use maxxis and 823 rims man. you can inflate them with a mini pump and no sealant. just cost loads.


thinking about it more, i might try running the intense tires with slime 'painted' on to the rim with a brush. they got a really good bead which will work well for tubeless, just as long as they hold air for a day or two it would be fine.

 

[dhkid]

freakrock- i change tires quite a bit, having a gooey mess isn't very pleasant.

ChrisKring- keep up with the times man. intense FRO-lite. all at competitive weights to maxxis and michelin offerings. i tried their tires briefly and really liked the DH. further more they have dual compound tires too.

 

[FreeRide-Junkie]

I don't understand why some people don't run sealant. Is saving that 20 grams or whatever worth it? Yes, the tire may inflate without it and it may hold air for the most part. It is going to hold air better and resist PUNCTURES as well if you're running sealant though..... Just something I really didn't understand. I race XC tubeless and will do the same DH I imagine.

 

[buildyourown]

ghetto is the way to go. It's cheaper and lighter than UST if you consider that you don't have to run a 823.
Rim strips cost $2-4. Mine works great with maxxis tires.

 

[kidwoo]

and if you really want to run tubelss, use maxxis and 823 rims man. you can inflate them with a mini pump and no sealant. just cost loads.

Not always true. Depends on the tire.


And I run 729s to get a wider tire profile. The main place I ride my dh bike is about the dryest loosest conditions you've ever seen. Actually you live in the UK so you've probably never even seen what I'm talking about


I've got 823s and non tubeless maxxis dh tires on a demo 7 that have been working just fine so far. But for the big bike, I want big rims.

I've been using tubeless setups for the last 5-6 years on various bikes......stans, ghetto, maxxis, ust rims......you name it. I've just never used the maxxis strips on my full blown dh bike which is why I'm curious. I'm willing to bet it's a better system than ust rims.

 

[dropmachine]

hey what size is what for the Maxxis strips?

Actually, which one fits the 721, and which one fits the 729?

thanks!

 

[Transcend]

hey what size is what for the Maxxis strips?

Actually, which one fits the 721, and which one fits the 729?

thanks!

DH1 fits the 721. The Dh2 fits a few rims, but not sure about the 729.

 

[kidwoo]

hey what size is what for the Maxxis strips?

Actually, which one fits the 721, and which one fits the 729?

thanks!

I'll look when I get home.


The kicker is that they don't make them anymore. A friend of mine had some laying around.

Kind of a pisser because they're the best strip made for doing this.

 

[WBC]

Ghetto tubeless is definitely the way to go. I've even set it up on a few BMX bikes and XC race bikes, and never any problems. Tubes cost $3 a wheel, you don't need to use heavy 823s with the nipple caps, and you can use imperfect beads easier since you have the rubber rim strip to conform to the imperfections. All in all, a great setup.

 

[bikenweed]

Ok, so I've got a non UST 2.35 Minion and a 721 rim. I've also got a Maxxis rim strip, and some Stans sealant. There's no way the tire will ever seal. We've always used a compressor, there's no holes in the tire, and we've even tried with a tie-down slightly compressing the tire along the circumference. It just won't seal!

I heard something about building the rim up with tape? What kind of tape should I use? Will black electrical tape work? How much does the rim need to be built up? 2 scoops of Stans or even more?

Does ghetto tubeless not even need the tape build up? Details!

 

[davep]

Ok, so I've got a non UST 2.35 Minion and a 721 rim. I've also got a Maxxis rim strip, and some Stans sealant. There's no way the tire will ever seal. We've always used a compressor, there's no holes in the tire, and we've even tried with a tie-down slightly compressing the tire along the circumference. It just won't seal!

I heard something about building the rim up with tape? What kind of tape should I use? Will black electrical tape work? How much does the rim need to be built up? 2 scoops of Stans or even more?

Does ghetto tubeless not even need the tape build up? Details!

Check the stans site and follow thier instructions for seting up the 721. IIRC they recomend two layers of cloth rim tape...

I run 721's tubeless on the DH bike with no problems...none of the maxxis tires I have are tubeless. 5.1's on the small bike with the same outcome, with maxxis or mich non-ust single plys.

 

[jvnixon]

I heard something about building the rim up with tape? What kind of tape should I use? Will black electrical tape work? How much does the rim need to be built up? 2 scoops of Stans or even more?

Does ghetto tubeless not even need the tape build up? Details!

A strip of velox cloth rim tape

 

[buildyourown]

Ok, so I've got a non UST 2.35 Minion and a 721 rim. I've also got a Maxxis rim strip, and some Stans sealant. There's no way the tire will ever seal. We've always used a compressor, there's no holes in the tire, and we've even tried with a tie-down slightly compressing the tire along the circumference. It just won't seal!

I heard something about building the rim up with tape? What kind of tape should I use? Will black electrical tape work? How much does the rim need to be built up? 2 scoops of Stans or even more?

Does ghetto tubeless not even need the tape build up? Details!

Another reason to do it ghetto. You only need to use electrical tape for the rim strip.
A maxxis DH tire, and a 721 is about the most reliable tubeless combo. I can usually mount mine with a floor pump.

 

[dhkid]

I don't understand why some people don't run sealant.

because its messy!! and its not like i am dropping tubeless because i am getting flats.

Not always true. Depends on the tire.

use maxxis and 823 rims man.

i was only talking about maxxis tires, mich and hutchinson still dont need sealant, and sealant doesn't help them inflate.


read before you post people!!!


anyways, home for me is malaysia, it gets pretty dry, but its still hardpack, so doesn't get dry-dusty. and i cant really find a fault with 823 rims, (well you want a wider profile, so fair enough) they are strong, and work well.

 

[kidwoo]

i was only talking about maxxis tires, mich and hutchinson still dont need sealant, and sealant doesn't help them inflate.


read before you post people!!!

Read fully and completely before YOU post. I've been using tubeless setups for YEARS......of all types and most major brands of tires.

And I meant exactly what I said. I've had maxxis tires go on 823s just fine and I've had to spend hours trying to get other maxxis tires to seat.
And the ones that wouldn't seat or seal easily did so with the help of sealant.

IT DEPENDS ON THE TIRE. Not the brand. Not the model. The INDIVIDUAL TIRE.

And most people will see a benefit from using sealant regardless. Because some of us who aren't light little stringbean kids do in fact punch holes in tires. Plus it helps seal the bead if there are any irregularities in the surface of the bead.

If this doesn't apply to you then that's cool. You're lucky.

But I'm willing to bet I've done a whole lot more tubeless setups than you have over the years, and your experience is not gospel. Neither is mine but recognize that just because something works for you in a few cases, doesn't mean it's the experience of everyone else trying similar things.

The one absolute truth that I can back is that every setup is different. And there's no sure fire way to guarentee a particular combination. You just have to try it.

 

[dhkid]

my bad, though you were talking about different brands. and the read before you post bit was directed to the guy who suggested sealant, like i said, i dont like the mess.

i have used a fair bit of minions/high rollers and wet screams for nearly two years, all which have inflated with out any trouble. you must have had a bad batch then. as for tight tires, soapy water does wonders.

i have punched holes in tubeless tires too, both on maxxis and michelin, but it was my fault for not changing the tire pressure to suit the course. the cuts i have got are so big sealant wont work on them, you need a patch kit.

i am not being argumentative here, just sharing my experience with tubeless.

 

[kidwoo]

That's cool man. Looked like you were jumping on my case for some reason since you quoted me. My apologies.

I just wish you could have been at my place one night when I spent about 3 hours trying to get a highroller to seat on some 823s. Could have saved me some headaches


One thing I have noticed with running tubeless on bigger bikes is that I have better success running slightly HIGHER pressures. This keeps the rim from banging on the tire bead and pinch flatting it and it still allows the tire to conform better than one with a tube in it because it's lacking that extra layer of structural support.

I do this on my xc bike too for the same reasons actually. I don't buy the tubeless and lower pressures thing. Whoever started that doesn't ride anywhere very rocky.

I've got probably 50 tires at my place with split beads from pinch flatting the tire itself. It took me forever to find some good tubeless tires for my trail bike.

 

[dhkid]

my body weight and riding style has changed so much since i was on tubes i dont really have a bench mark to go back to anymore.

and on the rare occasion that i have to run tubes, i just run them extra hard and deal with the bouncier ride coz the last thing i want is a bloody flat tire!!!

give a standard tube patch kit a go on some of those tires you have. i am sure you can save a few, for the amount of money that tubeless tires cost, saving a few is always nice.

i like the foamy self adhesive patch kits. you can cut bit of the edges off to cover the ones near the bead well. the scary bit is that you can see the patch from outside the tire through the slit, but the tires still work with out any sealant. maybe applying some really strong glue to close up the slit would be a good idea too, but so far i haven't had any problems.

i always put on a slit free set for races, just to be safe.

 

[Zark]

One thing I have noticed with running tubeless on bigger bikes is that I have better success running slightly HIGHER pressures. This keeps the rim from banging on the tire bead and pinch flatting it and it still allows the tire to conform better than one with a tube in it because it's lacking that extra layer of structural support.

I do this on my xc bike too for the same reasons actually. I don't buy the tubeless and lower pressures thing. Whoever started that doesn't ride anywhere very rocky.

100% agree. I run 30-35psi on the dh for tubeless

 

[Cult Hero]

FWIW, i weighed my minions (non ust and ust) on my deemax and came up with a significant difference in weight. Can't remember exactly now, but it wasn't an insubstantial amount.

 

[Acadian]

Kidwoo is a hack...

I still have mental images of when your front tire spewed sealant at you.

Mmmm…Stan, you so tasty!

 

[kidwoo]

Kidwoo is a hack...

I still have mental images of when your front tire spewed sealant at you.

Mmmm…Stan, you so tasty!

Not my fault those tires sucked.


That was without a doubt the most frustrating day I've ever had with a bike..........and the last day I ever tried using non dh tires on a bike with more than 6" of travel.

That hasn't happened to me since I started using the porn latex either

 

[jonnynails]

I've got probably 50 tires at my place with split beads from pinch flatting the tire itself. It took me forever to find some good tubeless tires for my trail bike.

You and me both. I can't seem to ever run tubeless on my back wheel without getting cuts even at higher pressures and using Stans.

Kidwoo I still have mental images of when your front tire spewed sealant at you.

Mmmm…Stan, you so tasty!

Nice..... Now I know what you boys do all winter up in the mountains

 

[Pockets-o-Grey]

i like the feel of tubless better and the main reason is so i will never get a flat on my dh runs!!! and the rotational weight thing is nice and i think its a better system in the end.... **** tubes.

 

[kidwoo]

You and me both. I can't seem to ever run tubeless on my back wheel without getting cuts even at higher pressures and using Stans.



Nice..... Now I know what you boys do all winter up in the mountains

Stans sucks. It's too thin.


I mix it with this really thick stuff that's made as body latex for costumes and such. The brand is Deviant. That stuff works like elmers.

You can also get thicker stuff from a hobby store. I live close to reno however......and there are more porn shops than hobby stores