Frankenbrakes and brake improvement discussion

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by Udi, Sep 2, 2015.

  1. StiHacka

    StiHacka Compensating for something

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    I solved my sucky Shimano and Magura brakes by mating Shimano (Saint) levers to Magura (MTS) calipers. MT-8 could not be salvaged by any sorcery as both the levers and the calipers are flexy. I believe doing the alternative (Mag levers, Shi calipers) brings the worst of both worlds together in a tightly confined space and might cause our universe to assplode.
     
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  2. KAZHA

    KAZHA Chimp

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    What about newer gen XT/SLX levers, are they any good, or same shit in different colour?
     
  3. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    The second thing you said.
    They changed the lever/MC but the problems remain.

    Just buy new Zee levers.
    My buddy rides Zee brakes and buys a brand new set of levers every season. It seems to keep them working decent.

    Shimano's 4-pot calipers are less prone to seal problems than the 2-pot ones (I don't know why - Shimano probably doesn't either), so Saint and Zee problems are usually at the lever end.

    Definitely don't buy Magura levers, they have plasticky rubbish build quality and the ergonomics are poor.
     
  4. KAZHA

    KAZHA Chimp

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    Thanks for information and new ZEE lever it is then.
    Although maybe I have discovered something that fixes the "spongy first pull" lever issue - I put a small brass washer between the lever cap(3) and seperator(4) unit (http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-BL-M640-3431.pdf), then purged the system from caliper and the lever seems fine for a couple of days. But maybe I just got lucky
     
    #484 -   Dec 10, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2017
  5. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Yes, I don't think that's a good idea because it's likely increasing the sealing force of the reservoir cap / bladder - which would allow more fluid to stay in the system (the bladder seal is designed to allow excess to leak out easily, it's a very low-pressure seal) which increases the risk of operating as a closed-system (i.e. no longer volume compensated under temperature-driven fluid / seal expansions).

    The improved sealing may be fixing whatever issue was causing the spongy first pull, but I think on Shimano when problems start it's safest to install new lever assemblies. If it is within your budget, after 4-5 seasons I would be replacing both L/R, but up to you obviously.
     
  6. KAZHA

    KAZHA Chimp

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    Yeah,I was just curious, because there would be a constant drops of oil under the rubber boot thing,that covers the hose entering the lever.
    Anyway,new levers for new season is must!
     
  7. 6thElement

    6thElement Turbo Monkey

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  8. slimshady

    slimshady Turbo Monkey

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    Awesome. Testing "The best DH brakes" on an enduro bike.

     
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  9. 'size

    'size Turbo Monkey

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    trailmountainduro bikes are the new DH bikes.
     
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  10. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Absolutely.
    The real test of a brake is on a DH bike (27.5" or 29"), doing lift/shuttle runs with prolonged steep descents.

    Also I like how they rated the Saint an "8" for heat management while giving the V4 a "9".
    If Shimano demolishes everyone in one area (Hope included), it's heat management.
    This is enough to discredit the test in my book.

    At least they picked up on the part where the Quadiem has very little stopping power - however then tried to make it sound like it's not an actual issue, when it very clearly is. Why bother?

    Having ridden virtually every brake on the market - both before and after a full season of chairlift riding, I really want to do my own brake writeup just so people don't have to sift through a bunch of garbage to find the facts. Every "review" and "shootout" is hindered by the fact that no one wants to step on toes.
     
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  11. lobsterCT

    lobsterCT Chimp

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    Go for it. Sometimes the lizards need tough love.
     
  12. PJivan

    PJivan Monkey

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    In fairness it's a silly argument...I probably brake more with enduro bikes for a myriade of reasons, but more importantly while I've never experinced fading in a DH track I did doing enduro/freeride/whateveruwant2callit in the alps, hangin on the brakes in super step terrains and tyring. descending for 30 minutes no stop. It is also the only place were I saw pads get destroyed in a single day and disks singing melody that drove mans crazy!

    You don't necessary need a full body armor and 230mm to test brakes, especially fading and modulation as you generally have less grip with enduro tyres, your argument it's only valid for raw power, and by that i mean decellerate in the shortest amount of time/space possible.
     
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  13. 'size

    'size Turbo Monkey

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  14. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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    kinda sounds like you were downhilling.
     
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  15. captainspauldin

    captainspauldin intrigued by a pole

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  16. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    If you're not hauling ass into more consequential situations and braking harder on your dh bike you're just dh biking wrong. Bigger grippier tires put more stress on a brake, not less.
     
    #496 -   Dec 26, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
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  17. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

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    When a disc brake fades, eats pad material or pisses itself during a ride it generally has fuck all to do with which tyres were used.
     
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  18. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    But it's worse with grippier tires. Think about it chico, shitty tires will just slide and the brake isn't doing shit for heat generation when the rotor is just locked. Good traction lets you USE the brakes, which means not locked.
     
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  19. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

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    You think Endurbros use shitty tyres with harder compounds?

    None of them round here do. infact it's me running 60a rear semi slicks ALL year round on ALL my mtbs
     
  20. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Compared to thick downhill tires? Fuck yes.

    Go sit in a corner. You need a time out.
     
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  21. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

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    You're talking shit mate.

    Thick downhill tyres don't grip any better than lighter versions with the exact same tread and compound. infact if anything for straight line braking traction the opposite should be true as a lighter more flexible carcus should conform to the ground better.
    Thick downhill tyres just allow you to run lower pressures when pointy shit is in your path and give far better side knob support when leant over.

    My point a few posts ago was that a brake dragging middle aged Endurbro weekend warrior will be putting far more stress (heat) into their brakes than a seasoned half decent DH racer/rider/ex-racer.

    I can recall every time my brakes have failed through fade and every time it was because I was held up by someone lighter than me who was braking way more than I would. I eventually learned that if someone was causing me to brake drag for a significant amount of time and not letting me pass to just pull over and chill.
     
  22. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    I'm just enjoying all this because Gary is fighting FOR enduro :D
     
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  23. 'size

    'size Turbo Monkey

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    bestest cnc'ing, obvs.
     
  24. Cerberus75

    Cerberus75 Monkey

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    Why wouldn't you think that a heavier tire having more rotational mass not be harder on brakes?
     
  25. Westy

    Westy the teste

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    The best test of a set of brakes is fat chicks. Not only does the excessive mass increase the required energy dissipation, but the suspended adipose mass dampening effect improves the available traction.
     
  26. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

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    Woo didn't mention mass at all. I did.

    3-400g on a tyre makes fuck all difference to the grief your brakes are recieving when you're 20kg heavier than the guy you're argueing about those braking forces with. ;)


    @Udi OMG... you're right. :o
    I'm off to find that corner... to sit in the dark on my own.
    :doh:
     
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  27. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Thank you.
     
  28. PJivan

    PJivan Monkey

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    Do you have 30 minutes race in America? To me downhill it's a race, and races course only last 4-7 minutes top, are road racers doing downhill when they are going down? are XC racers doing DH half of their loops?
     
    #508 -   Dec 27, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  29. PJivan

    PJivan Monkey

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    Not sure if I understand your first statement but yes I brake late, as late as I can when racing DH and therefore I brake hard, as hard as possible, and if I realise I could brake harder without loose controll, next time I'll brake later and harder, on the other side If I'm just riding with friends down the mountain there is no point for me to risk and brake as late as possible in a trail I don't fucking know and to shave few cent of seconds.

    Smaller and harder enduro tyres are harder to modulate and require less power to lock down, so you feel more if a brake is not very modulable, on the other side no matter how heavy is the tyre/bike I never had a brake fading in a dh race track in the past 8 years.
     
  30. Inclag

    Inclag Turbo Monkey

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    Riding faster requires braking earlier....
     
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  31. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

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    ...for correcting you?

    You're welcome bro
     
  32. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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    uh, if you're consistently descending for a prolonged period of time at a high rate of speed on a bike in the woods on rocky trails, that sounds very similar to
    consistently descending for a slightly shorter period of time at a high rate of speed on a bike in the woods on rocky trails

    aside from semantics, would you honestly argue that prolonged light use of brakes puts more heat into the system than shorter, high intensity pulls? I have never felt brake fade outside of riding very steep trails. I would agree that prolonged descents put more hurt on an overall system (like pad integrity) but nothing challenges performance like true downhill trails, which is where you experience fade, heat buildup, changing lever pulls, crashes, etc. If I can't reliably pull my brakes at the same lever point time after time on a 5 minute run, then that's pretty telling of a brake system.
     
  33. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

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    sounds like brake dragging to me.

    and YES. this builds up moar heat than sharp short full braking at predetermined practiced braking points. eg. on a DH race track
     
  34. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    You don't even own a dh bike anymore do you?
     
  35. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

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    Yeah. I do.

    and a lifetime supply of 26" dual plys.

    Uplifts are just about to start up here too.

    You're going to have to start paying for all the corrective work I'm having to do to your #facts
     
  36. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    You've corrected nothing I've said. Because you're wrong.
     
  37. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

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  38. StiHacka

    StiHacka Compensating for something

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    Oooh, a discussion about who's downhilling is moar downhilly? :cupidarrow:

    :popcorn:

    Carry on!
     
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  39. 'size

    'size Turbo Monkey

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    I hope this culminates in somebody deleting one of their own threads. : tears:
     
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  40. johnbryanpeters

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    How this thread remains alive is beyond my pay grade.
     
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