Tuning blackbox speedstack in boxxer wc/team
- Thread starter Udi
- Start date
Actually by the info in his own post, he has the nut too far down the shaft preventing the 'gate' from even touching the end of the damper. It is open, providing no damping no matter the position of the knob...
Simple solution is to follow the highlighted portion of the instructions provided.
Simple solution is to follow the highlighted portion of the instructions provided.
Ok thanks, later I'll try to wind in the nut 2 turns more.
As for the male-female rod I paid attention when reassembling so the opened part of the silver plate matched the open part of the blue end piston when the blue knob was fully on "-", even though the two parts didn't match perfectly due to the need of aligning the hole of the little hex screw that holds the end piston to the black plastic tube.
As for the male-female rod I paid attention when reassembling so the opened part of the silver plate matched the open part of the blue end piston when the blue knob was fully on "-", even though the two parts didn't match perfectly due to the need of aligning the hole of the little hex screw that holds the end piston to the black plastic tube.
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OK, I turned the nut 3 turns from the 1 mm gap position and now the LSC is back :biggrin:.
So the Race doesn't have the speed stack; is the black piston in the middle of the black piece of the moco taking care of the high speed compression?
Sorry for the crappy pic (mobile phone)...
So the Race doesn't have the speed stack; is the black piston in the middle of the black piece of the moco taking care of the high speed compression?
Sorry for the crappy pic (mobile phone)...
Attachments
No, it's just a guide for the alu rod in the middle. The MoCo is...
If you think of a shimmed piston backword, say you have the piston static and a spring - loaded valves (shimzZ) with and with the MoCo you have a static shim with a spring - loaded piston wich moves away from it. So you still get a nice force dissipation and the shimstack is there just to take the edge of the bottom out and dissipate some more energy while the race depends only on the air volume for bottom out resistance.
And... i have my nut at about 1 rotation away from the position it holds the LSC Adjuster (so real low gate)
I've also found no difference in riding with the Team MoCo + shim stack, so gave that to a dude who wanted it and set mine back to the Nutty Race damper
If you think of a shimmed piston backword, say you have the piston static and a spring - loaded valves (shimzZ) with and with the MoCo you have a static shim with a spring - loaded piston wich moves away from it. So you still get a nice force dissipation and the shimstack is there just to take the edge of the bottom out and dissipate some more energy while the race depends only on the air volume for bottom out resistance.
And... i have my nut at about 1 rotation away from the position it holds the LSC Adjuster (so real low gate)
I've also found no difference in riding with the Team MoCo + shim stack, so gave that to a dude who wanted it and set mine back to the Nutty Race damper
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sorry for the offtopic, but maybe people who can help me read this section more frequently than Mechanics Q&A
my problem - http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215112
my problem - http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215112
Hey,
I posted on the last page about a problem I was having with a set of Boxxers I just fitted, some 06 uppers installed into 05 lowers. As I said previously, they do work well in terms of taking the bumps, but they rattle infuriatingly when I bounce the front end lightly, push my bike up a rooty trail and sometimes even when riding. The best way I can describe it is it sounds like the spring is loose inside the fork and knocking about. I have stripped down the fork and everything seems normal, so to find the problem I:
a) Added more preload than necessary, as in had to force the cap down with one hand and tighten with the other. All that happened was the first bit of travel got harder to move, but it did not stop the knocking. Also, when cruising about on the bike with my weight over the front (i.e. spring definitely loaded) the knock would still occur when I pushed more weight down on it. I also tried a variety of positions for rubber spring covers with no effect, so I assumed it wasn't the spring side.
b) Checked the oil height on the damping side, even though I added 150ml as recommended from a measuring cylinder. From this I could see that the end plate/port section of the Motion Control damper was definitely in the oil by at least a couple of inches. To double check it wasn't the compression, I took it out and replaced it with a regular blank top cap, and the knocking was still there.
c) I had the bike upside down so I started compressing the fork, and as expected the rebound stopped working, but I also couldn't get it to knock. At this point I still thought it was something loose so I just assumed I couldn't compress it fast enough with my arms to get it to knock. However, just to check, I took all the rebound off and (lo and behold) no knocking. Not when I bounced the front end, or when I pushed it deeper into the travel (maybe just a slight click if anything).
So basically I think I have pinned it down to the rebound unit. Nothing looked out of place when I had the fork apart, I greased up the seal and no oil leaked out when I pushed the push rod right into the stanchion. I have noticed however that TF Tuned say their tuning can get rid of an annoying knock when the forks switches from rebound to compression. I presume this is what I am experiencing, and I was wondering if anyone knows what causes it, and more importantly if there is a home fix anyone has successfully tried?
I'm also slightly surprised that the knock would occur in the first few mm of travel (which lead me to believe it was a loose spring in the first place). I suppose the rebound is in oil all the way through the travel, but if anyone has the knocking deeper in the travel but not at the top, and it could be something else, please let me know.
Cheers for any help on this one, its taken a few long hours of swearing and stripping and rebuilding to get to the bottom of this so far!
I posted on the last page about a problem I was having with a set of Boxxers I just fitted, some 06 uppers installed into 05 lowers. As I said previously, they do work well in terms of taking the bumps, but they rattle infuriatingly when I bounce the front end lightly, push my bike up a rooty trail and sometimes even when riding. The best way I can describe it is it sounds like the spring is loose inside the fork and knocking about. I have stripped down the fork and everything seems normal, so to find the problem I:
a) Added more preload than necessary, as in had to force the cap down with one hand and tighten with the other. All that happened was the first bit of travel got harder to move, but it did not stop the knocking. Also, when cruising about on the bike with my weight over the front (i.e. spring definitely loaded) the knock would still occur when I pushed more weight down on it. I also tried a variety of positions for rubber spring covers with no effect, so I assumed it wasn't the spring side.
b) Checked the oil height on the damping side, even though I added 150ml as recommended from a measuring cylinder. From this I could see that the end plate/port section of the Motion Control damper was definitely in the oil by at least a couple of inches. To double check it wasn't the compression, I took it out and replaced it with a regular blank top cap, and the knocking was still there.
c) I had the bike upside down so I started compressing the fork, and as expected the rebound stopped working, but I also couldn't get it to knock. At this point I still thought it was something loose so I just assumed I couldn't compress it fast enough with my arms to get it to knock. However, just to check, I took all the rebound off and (lo and behold) no knocking. Not when I bounced the front end, or when I pushed it deeper into the travel (maybe just a slight click if anything).
So basically I think I have pinned it down to the rebound unit. Nothing looked out of place when I had the fork apart, I greased up the seal and no oil leaked out when I pushed the push rod right into the stanchion. I have noticed however that TF Tuned say their tuning can get rid of an annoying knock when the forks switches from rebound to compression. I presume this is what I am experiencing, and I was wondering if anyone knows what causes it, and more importantly if there is a home fix anyone has successfully tried?
I'm also slightly surprised that the knock would occur in the first few mm of travel (which lead me to believe it was a loose spring in the first place). I suppose the rebound is in oil all the way through the travel, but if anyone has the knocking deeper in the travel but not at the top, and it could be something else, please let me know.
Cheers for any help on this one, its taken a few long hours of swearing and stripping and rebuilding to get to the bottom of this so far!
From what I learnt when I stripped down the 318 IS, the integrated speedstack cannot be altered or removed. You can try to bend one or two shims upwards to get much less HS damping though.
Hi everyone, I've read the thread completely and i want to remove my blackbox speedstack. I just want to make shure i got it right.
I remove everything in the picture except the blue knob that i got to but back at the exact same place on the shaft?
I remove everything in the picture except the blue knob that i got to but back at the exact same place on the shaft?
Any tips on getting the piston (part C) off part A? Mine won't slide past the threads. EDIT: it was just loctite or something clogging the threads, all good now.
Also while I'm at it, does anyone know how to remove the detent balls from the LSC adjuster?
I've heard of them flying out as soon as you lift the knob off but mine are stuck in there tight.
Also 2 more things:
what's the purpose of parts B and C? would there be any point in removing some but not all of the shims if removing them entirely reduced the HSC too much?
Also while I'm at it, does anyone know how to remove the detent balls from the LSC adjuster?
I've heard of them flying out as soon as you lift the knob off but mine are stuck in there tight.
Also 2 more things:
what's the purpose of parts B and C? would there be any point in removing some but not all of the shims if removing them entirely reduced the HSC too much?
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Dox -
That's correct.
Viv -
Use the comp adjuster/floodgate to set your lsc/hsc relationship, not the speedstack. Parts b and c form the return valve, not necessary once the rest is gone.
The detent balls are fixed in the adjuster, never seen them fly out. Removing them would probably take some hacking away with a drill, although personally I'd keep them there and fine tune with oil weight if really needed (you can usually achieve what you want with the adjuster as-is and gate anyway), because the adjuster can get bumped around more easily with no detents.
That's correct.
Viv -
Use the comp adjuster/floodgate to set your lsc/hsc relationship, not the speedstack. Parts b and c form the return valve, not necessary once the rest is gone.
The detent balls are fixed in the adjuster, never seen them fly out. Removing them would probably take some hacking away with a drill, although personally I'd keep them there and fine tune with oil weight if really needed (you can usually achieve what you want with the adjuster as-is and gate anyway), because the adjuster can get bumped around more easily with no detents.
I'm working on my Boxxer Race and I want to make sure all modifications would work on the adjustable MCU as well.
So could someone please answer the following questions.
1. Can the floodgate adjuster be tuned in the same range as a Race with selflocking nut?
(guess not)
if not:
2. Can the floodgate adjuster be tuned to full lockout?
3. Can the floodgate adjuster be tuned to the Race setting without selflocking nut?
4. Can it be tuned to have a gap between the silver plate and the blue part?
5. How many turns does the floodgate adjuster have?
I know some of these settings don't make any sense. Just to make sure my setup would work on a Team/WC MCU as well.
So could someone please answer the following questions.
1. Can the floodgate adjuster be tuned in the same range as a Race with selflocking nut?
(guess not)
if not:
2. Can the floodgate adjuster be tuned to full lockout?
3. Can the floodgate adjuster be tuned to the Race setting without selflocking nut?
4. Can it be tuned to have a gap between the silver plate and the blue part?
5. How many turns does the floodgate adjuster have?
I know some of these settings don't make any sense. Just to make sure my setup would work on a Team/WC MCU as well.
Not entirely sure what you mean... do you have a 2009 or earlier boxxer race (32mm)?
If so, yes the locknut will give you the same range. Default setting is "hardest to blowoff", with the locknut you can make it "easier to blowoff". If there is a gap (with the damper static) between silver plate and blue piston, the fork will "start blown off" which is silly, so you don't want that.
The turns of the floodgate adjuster do not correlate to the thread for the M5 nut on the boxxer race so I think it will be irrelevant to you.
But rest assured, all usable range of a team/wc motion control damper can be replicated by the race with the nut, and while you can probably go beyond that range ever so slightly when you use the nut, it will be in a useless range - i.e. nothing you would actually want to run.
Hope that answers your strange questions.
If so, yes the locknut will give you the same range. Default setting is "hardest to blowoff", with the locknut you can make it "easier to blowoff". If there is a gap (with the damper static) between silver plate and blue piston, the fork will "start blown off" which is silly, so you don't want that.
The turns of the floodgate adjuster do not correlate to the thread for the M5 nut on the boxxer race so I think it will be irrelevant to you.
But rest assured, all usable range of a team/wc motion control damper can be replicated by the race with the nut, and while you can probably go beyond that range ever so slightly when you use the nut, it will be in a useless range - i.e. nothing you would actually want to run.
Hope that answers your strange questions.
I have a 2009 Race and did/do some modifications. Among them the locknut. I just want to find out if everything will work the same in the adjustable Team/WC MCU (without Blackbox stack).
So my intention is a little bit the other direction than you got my questions. It's all about having the same after just adding the floodgate adjuster.
How many clicks does the floodgate adjuster have? To how many locknut turns or millimeters of "silver plate prestress" does it correlate? Is it possible to tune it to a gap? (last question is also weird, just to get an idea of the range)
Can it be adjusted to have a LSC, if I don't call it LSC to have a lockout with blowoff? So a LSC that is only hard and not completely stiff as long as it's active.
So my intention is a little bit the other direction than you got my questions. It's all about having the same after just adding the floodgate adjuster.
How many clicks does the floodgate adjuster have? To how many locknut turns or millimeters of "silver plate prestress" does it correlate? Is it possible to tune it to a gap? (last question is also weird, just to get an idea of the range)
Can it be adjusted to have a LSC, if I don't call it LSC to have a lockout with blowoff? So a LSC that is only hard and not completely stiff as long as it's active.
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It works the same. Just take my word for it. If you want a calibrated guide, then honestly, go and work it out yourself - the locknut gives you complete floodgate adjustability in a fork that was never intended to have the feature, not sure what else you want!
The LSC is LSC, it is only a lockout if you completely close the port. At 2 clicks back or 3 clicks back from closed, the LSC adjuster will provide LS damping without being locked out. You can fine tune how it responds to high speed impacts (bumps, rocks) at that setting by using the locknut. Read backwards through this thread if you need more details.
The LSC is LSC, it is only a lockout if you completely close the port. At 2 clicks back or 3 clicks back from closed, the LSC adjuster will provide LS damping without being locked out. You can fine tune how it responds to high speed impacts (bumps, rocks) at that setting by using the locknut. Read backwards through this thread if you need more details.
PS. I still have no idea what you're trying to ask (are you asking about buying a Team/WC damper?). The "real" floodgate adjuster moves the entire thin blue rod up and down (which moves the position where the speedstack "core" - blue hex part - is contacted by the fork end of the silver plate.
The locknut lets you adjust the EXACT SAME THING in a slightly different way, i.e. you are directly controlling the position where the fork end of the silver plate contacts the stopper you've introduced (the nut). With no stopper, blowoff is either nonexistent or too late, meaning spiking at higher LSC levels - i.e. stock boxxer race.
Basically, you have one or the other, they do the same thing. You don't need to make any mods to the Team/WC fork (apart from taking out the speedstack if you want). With the stack out, it can be setup to be functionally the same as a race with locknut and vice versa.
I had the random idea one day because Socket had a race fork originally (while I had the WC) and I was trying to think of a way that he could adjust his gate without actually having the damper. Now many people are using it successfully around the world to my knowledge.
The locknut lets you adjust the EXACT SAME THING in a slightly different way, i.e. you are directly controlling the position where the fork end of the silver plate contacts the stopper you've introduced (the nut). With no stopper, blowoff is either nonexistent or too late, meaning spiking at higher LSC levels - i.e. stock boxxer race.
Basically, you have one or the other, they do the same thing. You don't need to make any mods to the Team/WC fork (apart from taking out the speedstack if you want). With the stack out, it can be setup to be functionally the same as a race with locknut and vice versa.
I had the random idea one day because Socket had a race fork originally (while I had the WC) and I was trying to think of a way that he could adjust his gate without actually having the damper. Now many people are using it successfully around the world to my knowledge.
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Ok, thanks.
I just started with some more modifications because the Race MCU even with locknut didn't work fine for me. When I tuned the nut to have only a little amount of LSC, it wasn't constant. It was a tiny gap at the silver plate. So it was very sensitive to friction of O-rings and whatever. 0.05 mm gap difference due to friction will make a huge difference in damping. But that should be the same problem with Team/WC MCU.
That's why I'm looking for other ways, e.g. I lowered the spring rate of the plastic spring a lot. Everything is a lot of trying. So the floodgate adjuster would be very helpful to find a setup.
Edit: you know, the position of the nut depends a lot on the plastic spring rate... One reason to adjust it easily externally while trying.
I just started with some more modifications because the Race MCU even with locknut didn't work fine for me. When I tuned the nut to have only a little amount of LSC, it wasn't constant. It was a tiny gap at the silver plate. So it was very sensitive to friction of O-rings and whatever. 0.05 mm gap difference due to friction will make a huge difference in damping. But that should be the same problem with Team/WC MCU.
That's why I'm looking for other ways, e.g. I lowered the spring rate of the plastic spring a lot. Everything is a lot of trying. So the floodgate adjuster would be very helpful to find a setup.
Edit: you know, the position of the nut depends a lot on the plastic spring rate... One reason to adjust it easily externally while trying.
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Maybe I should mention that the compression adjuster of the Race (same as Team and WC) doesn't work for me. For LSC, the first 3 positions are like open, the last 3 positions are closed. So there is maybe one position that gives you an amount of non-lockout LSC as long as you don't set the silver plate to a little gap. As I just said, a gap-based LSC is too sensitive for me.
That's my intention to try other things to get an amount of LSC and still have the floodgate adjustment (adjuster or nut) only for setting the change from LSC to HSC.
Besides my problem with unmeant changings in compression damping, if you use the floodgate adjustment to get a non-lockout LSC, you set the LSC/HSC ratio at the same time. So I want to find a LSC setting that keeps the floodgate adjuster only for switching from LSC to HSC.
Edit: Did someone ever try or manage to remove the silver plate from the blue piston?
That's my intention to try other things to get an amount of LSC and still have the floodgate adjustment (adjuster or nut) only for setting the change from LSC to HSC.
Besides my problem with unmeant changings in compression damping, if you use the floodgate adjustment to get a non-lockout LSC, you set the LSC/HSC ratio at the same time. So I want to find a LSC setting that keeps the floodgate adjuster only for switching from LSC to HSC.
Edit: Did someone ever try or manage to remove the silver plate from the blue piston?
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You don't tune the LSC with plate gap. Unless you're talking about the port size (adjusted by the blue adjuster). If the silver plate is at all seperated (downwards) from the blue piston the fork starts blown off.
My advice is, run the fork in the first position (back from closed, on blue adjuster) that isn't locked out. It varies from fork 2 fork, but usually it's 2 clicks backed from closed. Then, fine tune with oil weight to get more or less LSC. If you like lots of LSC I'd recommend Silkolene 5wt (26cSt) or greater.
After that you can tune the floodgate to start blowing off at whatever threshold you like, and the general idea is you set it so the plate is slightly open, and then screw it in/up a couple turns from there to get it right.
If you want more accuracy or don't like the damper, I think you're pretty much limited from that point onwards - there are many inconsistencies you can't beat (like the play and associated damping variation that comes from the fork / knife assembly that connects the adjuster to the adjuster plate)... I went ahead and built my own damper from scratch. Alternatively, the (updated) 2010 has a pretty nice damper too.
My advice is, run the fork in the first position (back from closed, on blue adjuster) that isn't locked out. It varies from fork 2 fork, but usually it's 2 clicks backed from closed. Then, fine tune with oil weight to get more or less LSC. If you like lots of LSC I'd recommend Silkolene 5wt (26cSt) or greater.
After that you can tune the floodgate to start blowing off at whatever threshold you like, and the general idea is you set it so the plate is slightly open, and then screw it in/up a couple turns from there to get it right.
If you want more accuracy or don't like the damper, I think you're pretty much limited from that point onwards - there are many inconsistencies you can't beat (like the play and associated damping variation that comes from the fork / knife assembly that connects the adjuster to the adjuster plate)... I went ahead and built my own damper from scratch. Alternatively, the (updated) 2010 has a pretty nice damper too.
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I think the lowered plastic spring rate solved one of my biggest problems. Before it was so hard that I had to tune the nut to have the silver plate somewhere around a "just contact" position (little gap or not - hard to see and not important for the problem). So no prestress on the plate and sensitive to friction, its own weight, whatever. Now I can move the plastic spring maybe a few millimeters (don't know, it should have a little less than 50% of the original spring rate and I'm around 70 kg). So there is that much prestress on the silver plate and it will stay connected safely to the blue piston as long as there is the force that makes the spring move those millimeters.
And: the more the spring moves, the less the blowoff point will depend on friction, right?
Maybe the softer plastic spring even gives a better fine-tunability to the nut (didn't think about that very much until now).
I think the rotation play of the silver plate is no real problem. As soon as there is a little oil flow it should move towards the open position. Doesn't seem to be an inconsistency in port size to me.
You're right, playing with oil weight might help to get one position working well. But I think I'd like to have it tunable with the compression adjuster to have maybe 2 or 3 different amounts of LSC. Best way would probably be to design another silver plate that offers less difference in port size with each click.
Does the silver plate have a thread or is it pressed into the blue part?
I'll keep on trying with the old Boxxer, as I think I'm on a good way to get it working like I want it to.
Btw., Udi, it's nice to discuss these things with you.
And: the more the spring moves, the less the blowoff point will depend on friction, right?
Maybe the softer plastic spring even gives a better fine-tunability to the nut (didn't think about that very much until now).
I think the rotation play of the silver plate is no real problem. As soon as there is a little oil flow it should move towards the open position. Doesn't seem to be an inconsistency in port size to me.
You're right, playing with oil weight might help to get one position working well. But I think I'd like to have it tunable with the compression adjuster to have maybe 2 or 3 different amounts of LSC. Best way would probably be to design another silver plate that offers less difference in port size with each click.
Does the silver plate have a thread or is it pressed into the blue part?
I'll keep on trying with the old Boxxer, as I think I'm on a good way to get it working like I want it to.
Btw., Udi, it's nice to discuss these things with you.
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It's good to hear it worked out for you anyway. Modifying the spring tube is definitely a legit method of tuning, as that tube is essentially your HSC shim stack or HSC spring in a conventional damper, and the floodgate is similar to the preload you put on that stack or spring. But a different rate is different to just adding more preload. I presume you just drilled more holes/slots into the tube? Or something else? Be interesting to hear.
Unfortunately the silver plate is pressfit into the blue part, I tried unthreading a spare one with no luck so I'm fairly sure it's pressed. You're right about the rotational play not being a big issue, I guess mostly I thought it just felt a bit cheap.
The old boxxer is fine once you get it tuned right, good luck with it.
Unfortunately the silver plate is pressfit into the blue part, I tried unthreading a spare one with no luck so I'm fairly sure it's pressed. You're right about the rotational play not being a big issue, I guess mostly I thought it just felt a bit cheap.
The old boxxer is fine once you get it tuned right, good luck with it.
I'm pretty new to tuning dampers. I just changed the spring rate as it was a way to get the blowoff working constantly. Can you explain the influence of preload and spring rate?
To me it feels like the softer plastic spring with more (silver plate) preload has more HSC than the hard spring without preload. Right?
I didn't want to change the sidewall thickness of the tube as I would increse the stress of the plastic as much as I decrease the spring rate. So I just modified the existing holes. Always checking with FEM before to get an idea of the spring rate and trying not to overload the plastic.
To me it feels like the softer plastic spring with more (silver plate) preload has more HSC than the hard spring without preload. Right?
I didn't want to change the sidewall thickness of the tube as I would increse the stress of the plastic as much as I decrease the spring rate. So I just modified the existing holes. Always checking with FEM before to get an idea of the spring rate and trying not to overload the plastic.
The soft plastic spring is not that good on the track. It requires/allows more silver plate preload, so it feels like the plate has more tendency to close the port again and slow the oil flow down after it opened. I can't explain it completely until now, but it's just much more HSC at the same blow-off force setting - it doesn't even feel that much like blow-off when I set LSC to an ok level.
I guess even a Boxxer Race can be modified to any amount of LSC and HSC - it just takes so much time, and it's hard to really try the settings after the bikepark season is over.
I guess even a Boxxer Race can be modified to any amount of LSC and HSC - it just takes so much time, and it's hard to really try the settings after the bikepark season is over.
To save some ridiculously long explanation, I exercised my mspaint skills - I'm *fairly* sure these are right, Socket will jump in and correct me if they aren't:
Basically,
Harder spring = less regression of compression curve
Softer spring = more regression of compression curve
Later blowoff = higher velocity needed to make curve regress
(^ i.e. more turns in of floodgate adjuster, more turns upwards of locknut)
I hope I didn't arse up that explanation, it's early! Also, while the pic doesn't show it very well, the idea is that in the last graph the lsc curve keeps rising and it starts its regression at a higher velocity / shaft speed (therefore further to the right along the x axis) than the graph above it. That last graph would be an example of your current setup.
Long story short though, I found the rate of the stock plastic spring was fine personally, and didn't really need to change anything apart from pulling the stack out to get it working well.
Basically,
Harder spring = less regression of compression curve
Softer spring = more regression of compression curve
Later blowoff = higher velocity needed to make curve regress
(^ i.e. more turns in of floodgate adjuster, more turns upwards of locknut)
I hope I didn't arse up that explanation, it's early! Also, while the pic doesn't show it very well, the idea is that in the last graph the lsc curve keeps rising and it starts its regression at a higher velocity / shaft speed (therefore further to the right along the x axis) than the graph above it. That last graph would be an example of your current setup.
Long story short though, I found the rate of the stock plastic spring was fine personally, and didn't really need to change anything apart from pulling the stack out to get it working well.
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What I feel is a little bit the opposite of your graphs. The hard plastic spring feels like almost no HSC after blowoff, the soft plastic spring feels overdamped at HSC after blow-off.
What do you think this explanation:
- hard plastic spring -> almost no preload on the silver plate
- soft plastic spring -> a lot of preload on the silver plate, and much more movement of the plastic spring
(set to the same blow-off force)
When there is the blow-off force, the situation changes completely. The oil flow pushes the silver plate further towards the open position and the plastic spring already starts to expand again.
The hard spring hasn't had much movement and the silver plate had almost no preload. So it's easy for the oil flow to keep the port open. So there's not much resistance (not much HSC).
When the soft plastic spring expands again when the oil flow occures, there will be more movement and the silver plate gets into a preloaded position even when there's still a gap in this situation. This preload is resistance for the oil flow.
Please correct me if there's something wrong with this imagination.
What do you think this explanation:
- hard plastic spring -> almost no preload on the silver plate
- soft plastic spring -> a lot of preload on the silver plate, and much more movement of the plastic spring
(set to the same blow-off force)
When there is the blow-off force, the situation changes completely. The oil flow pushes the silver plate further towards the open position and the plastic spring already starts to expand again.
The hard spring hasn't had much movement and the silver plate had almost no preload. So it's easy for the oil flow to keep the port open. So there's not much resistance (not much HSC).
When the soft plastic spring expands again when the oil flow occures, there will be more movement and the silver plate gets into a preloaded position even when there's still a gap in this situation. This preload is resistance for the oil flow.
Please correct me if there's something wrong with this imagination.
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Yeah you're off the mark. I got the drift that you knew how the mechanism worked a few posts ago but now I'm not so sure.
Nothing preloads anything in the motion control assembly, the floodgate adjuster (int or ext) simply controls how far upwards the silver plate will move with the blue piston before it stops and the blue piston moves up and away from it. The whole process happens within like 2mm so it's hard to understand it visually without exaggerating the movements in your head. I only used the word preload to draw a parallel with a conventional damper (spring loaded shim), which the floodgate is similar to.
To save a lot of repetition, just read backwards through the thread and you'll find more detailed explanations of how it all works.
Nothing preloads anything in the motion control assembly, the floodgate adjuster (int or ext) simply controls how far upwards the silver plate will move with the blue piston before it stops and the blue piston moves up and away from it. The whole process happens within like 2mm so it's hard to understand it visually without exaggerating the movements in your head. I only used the word preload to draw a parallel with a conventional damper (spring loaded shim), which the floodgate is similar to.
To save a lot of repetition, just read backwards through the thread and you'll find more detailed explanations of how it all works.
The logical explanation here would be that you had your floodgate set too light (nut too far down, blowoff too early) with the hard/stock spring tube; and the floodgate too heavy with the soft/modified spring tube, perhaps in an attempt to compensate for the fact that the compression damping was regressing too easily (or more easily than it used to).
I'm not sure if it's too late, but small changes and one at a time are definitely the key with dampers. I'm still pretty bad on that count myself, but I think it's good advice anyway.
That's exactly the way I have to change it to get the same force to switch from LSC to HSC after making the spring tube softer. And that was exactly my intention to make the spring softer, as I felt the silver plate needs a better contact to the blue piston (to get it working more constantly) without increasing the blow-off force.
So you agree with me that I have more HSC since the plastic spring is softer?
But you're right, I'm changing too many things at once. I'll receive an adjustable MCU soon to compare the changings seperately and have the external adjuster.
I received the adjustable MCU and compared different settings more or less directly (just in the basement, without air pressure). Now I couldn't feel a real difference after blow-off caused by spring rate. So I go on with the soft spring.
I didn't feel any influence of the shimstack. I compared it without the blue piston that holds the silver plate. So I tried to have no other influence than the shimstack. Is there something wrong with this test setup? Did someone else try it in that way? I can hardly imagine that the shimstack can cause spiking at high speed as I don't feel any influence from it.
The adjustability of the floodgate adjuster is great and a real improvent towards taking the MCU out of the fork and trying to find a better setting for the locknut. I just changed the range a little bit towards the open side.
I didn't feel any influence of the shimstack. I compared it without the blue piston that holds the silver plate. So I tried to have no other influence than the shimstack. Is there something wrong with this test setup? Did someone else try it in that way? I can hardly imagine that the shimstack can cause spiking at high speed as I don't feel any influence from it.
The adjustability of the floodgate adjuster is great and a real improvent towards taking the MCU out of the fork and trying to find a better setting for the locknut. I just changed the range a little bit towards the open side.
Apologies for bumping this back up;
Question for Udi here -
I'm running 08 teams with the speedstack mod. I'm running a soft spring (65kg), no floodgate and 6 clicks of compression.
They feel absolutely perfect, aside from the front wheel wander I get on any flat corners; the front wheel traction is shocking. I know you talked about this further up, but did you ever come to a conclusion as to what could fix it? I really like having my forks hard most of the time, with a super easy blowoff. I'm having to go back to 4 or 5 clicks of compression to try and get that traction, and it just doesn't feel right.
God I'm picky!
Thanks in advance.
Question for Udi here -
I'm running 08 teams with the speedstack mod. I'm running a soft spring (65kg), no floodgate and 6 clicks of compression.
They feel absolutely perfect, aside from the front wheel wander I get on any flat corners; the front wheel traction is shocking. I know you talked about this further up, but did you ever come to a conclusion as to what could fix it? I really like having my forks hard most of the time, with a super easy blowoff. I'm having to go back to 4 or 5 clicks of compression to try and get that traction, and it just doesn't feel right.
God I'm picky!
Thanks in advance.
6 is too much / silly. The fork is actually locked out at that point. You're better off running 2 clicks back from closed (which will be 4 or 5 from open, but don't measure that way) and 5-10 clicks of floodgate.
That way you get a far more reasonable compression curve with more traction and more support where you need it, rather than a fork that's virtually locked out, gives horrid traction, and blows off early. Use slightly thicker oil at the settings I gave if need be.
The fork should feel reasonably supple when pushing up and down, and not locked if you push slowly.
That way you get a far more reasonable compression curve with more traction and more support where you need it, rather than a fork that's virtually locked out, gives horrid traction, and blows off early. Use slightly thicker oil at the settings I gave if need be.
The fork should feel reasonably supple when pushing up and down, and not locked if you push slowly.
