2010 Marzocchi 888 Evo tuning thread
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I actually don't, only recall one guy saying it worked and then another trying it and saying it just scraped and was too tight. I probably wouldn't do it until I tried one first myself, should be easy enough to borrow one as the 40 came with all 3 springs. They don't have a lot of movement room in a 40 even.
I just bought a firm steel spring off of PB for $40, so I will try that and see if it helps.
Keep us posted. Starting to seem like the only solution. For now adding oil will have to do.
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I have gone to 190cc of 5w. What you have done is what I'm going to try next, but still it seems like a firmer spring would be the right solution. How much preload are you running?
I think both guys were me. 40 spring measured the same at static(full length, in both length and diameter), but I think the windings on the 40 aren't as steep, so they swell more. Whatever reason(might be the other way around), they didn't let me get full travel. Someone else can try it and see. I tried a heavy fox spring(1 up from medium)in evo ti stanchions. I think there's possibly a bit of variation in diameters, as apparently some evo ti springs work in standard evo stanchions, and some don't.
Mine unfortunately don't, as I've just snapped a ti spring I'm pretty sure because it was binding up.
40 rubber spring guard has to come off to try, PITA to get back on.
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Marz/Fox spring rate comparison...
Marz 5.5 (31.4 lb/in)
6.5 (37.1 lb/in)
7.7 (43.9 lb/in)
Fox black (30 lb/in)
purple (35 lb/in)
blue (40 lb/in)
green (45 lb/in)
yellow (50 lb/in)
The Fox blue diameter is 1-2mm too big to fit in the steel (non-ti) 2010 888 Evo.
you guys using fox springs must be putting them in Ti models?
220lbs here with Marz 7.7, 5wt oil as per Marz tech Ronnie's recommendation. Feels great. 5wt allows the high-speed valving to work properly.
Marz 5.5 (31.4 lb/in)
6.5 (37.1 lb/in)
7.7 (43.9 lb/in)
Fox black (30 lb/in)
purple (35 lb/in)
blue (40 lb/in)
green (45 lb/in)
yellow (50 lb/in)
The Fox blue diameter is 1-2mm too big to fit in the steel (non-ti) 2010 888 Evo.
you guys using fox springs must be putting them in Ti models?
220lbs here with Marz 7.7, 5wt oil as per Marz tech Ronnie's recommendation. Feels great. 5wt allows the high-speed valving to work properly.
I may have already posted this somewhere on this thread (yay for CRS), but I'm ~190 lbs and I'm running the firm steel spring in my 2010 EVO. I actually like it for the most part, but I have no preload, VAR all the way out, and the compression all the way out - which hardly seems ideal. That said, it does stay up in it's travel and resists brake dive (no sh!t, right?), and I still can get full travel out of it - but rarely. On really fast, rough stuff, I freaking love how it feels, but it does seem to have lost some of the silky smoothness in the initial part of the stroke (compared to the stock spring). I'm going to give the 200-225 cc oil trick in the spring side soon, so I may have a firm spring I might sell or heck, let someone borrow if they want to give it a go.
Isn't the black fox spring for incredibly light riders?
Zero preload. Again, I like the very plush feel in the initial stroke - trail chatter just disappears.
But since you mentioned it, you might try the recommended 7.5 wt oil rather than 5. That should also get you closer to your goal. I ended up mixing equal parts of Spectro 5 and 10 to get 7.5. I think some people even run 10 wt straight up.
Whenever this experiment goes down, I'm game...hell, we could do the oil volume change on mine, leave yours as is, and then swap for back to back comparison.
finally about to do a oil change and was talking to Ronnie about the teflon additive that he used and asked where i can get it from. apparently it cost $220 for 160z...i think ill deal without it 
he is confident it really does make a difference but mentioned my bushings should have soaked up a good deal and with the honed bushings it should be good for a while.
i think im still going to stick with the extra oil instead of getting a Fox 40 spring...unless of course my friend coughs up her firm Ti spring.
he is confident it really does make a difference but mentioned my bushings should have soaked up a good deal and with the honed bushings it should be good for a while.
i think im still going to stick with the extra oil instead of getting a Fox 40 spring...unless of course my friend coughs up her firm Ti spring.
If you can find some tm88 Teflon (Or tm8) you can add it, its used in industrial coatings and I had some floating around for a while....bottle finally gave out and my stuff in that box is now Teflon coated....doesn't do well on goggle lenses and gloves...lolfinally about to do a oil change and was talking to Ronnie about the teflon additive that he used and asked where i can get it from. apparently it cost $220 for 160z...i think ill deal without it
he is confident it really does make a difference but mentioned my bushings should have soaked up a good deal and with the honed bushings it should be good for a while.
i think im still going to stick with the extra oil instead of getting a Fox 40 spring...unless of course my friend coughs up her firm Ti spring.
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it was mentioned here before but is impossible to find anywhere. id also prefer to use what is recommended, not an alternative. he mentioned a teflon powder that is out there but he has never used it.
From the post above yours
"I tried a heavy fox spring in evo ti stanchions".
Someone could just take to their heavy spring with a file or grinder. Just take a consistent amount off, say for maybe just half the spring if you want it supple.
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For you Canadian guys, there is a firm ti spring in the Pinkbike Classifieds for a very good price. Get 'er while the getting is good.
I must've got lucky. LBS was able to get me a firm Ti spring from Marzocchi. They might have one If you call.
Should get to me next week.
Should get to me next week.
This mod is so easy, yet to test it. But took 5 minutes to remove preload gizmo and swap for Stans no tubes valve. Spring is pushing on valve via spacer and part of preload adjuster. Might make it leak, will be an easy mod if needed. Will report my findings.
I've got a stack of brand new Ti (nickel coated) stanchions in my garage. If anyone wants some PM me. I think I've got 4-5 pairs.
At your weight (200lbs) there is no way the medium spring is correct for you. Any combination of extra spring preload, air preload caps, excessive oil height - all of this is just a blanket fix for not having the correct spring rate - and will result in less than ideal performance. Preload in either form will make the fork harsher at the start of the stroke without any significant support added in the mid-stroke, and increasing oil height will result in firmness at the end of the stroke without any addition of support in the early/mid-stroke (so even though you stop bottoming out, the fork dives like crazy).
The most fundamental part of setting up suspension correctly is getting the spring rate right, and unfortunately Marzocchi have spec'd things too softly for the average rider weight. The solution is to just get the right spring.
Of course to each their own, but in my eyes if you're going to run a coil fork you may as well reap the benefits of one.
It's not air preload. It's an air spring, and very mild at that. It will make the spring rate stiffer/firmer, but only a small amount, as I'm guessing it won't hold too high a pressure, and at higher pressure will feel weird as air forks can. I cannot see any negatives to using an air spring to support a coil. I've done it with Kowas and old school DNMs, I think it's a good idea. But gains are small, and not a huge window of adjustability. But you still can resist bottoming, and make the whole spring a touch firmer, and I don't think there'll be the associated lack of small bump sensitivity. I'm riding them tomorrow. Hopefully I wont get shot in the eye by the valve off a jump. Felt great pushing on them.
For $10 or whatever the valves cost, I think it's well worth doing. You probably save the weight you would buying a $10 ti bolt, and if you were running more oil to increase bottoming, you could save the weight there too. and also remove the left leg volume control system. Probably knock a total of 50-100 grams out for some peoples set ups, maybe more.
The valve I'm using cannot pop out and hit me in the eye, was just a joke.
Gemini, will you post to Oz? I'd get two pairs if cheaper than cost here.
For $10 or whatever the valves cost, I think it's well worth doing. You probably save the weight you would buying a $10 ti bolt, and if you were running more oil to increase bottoming, you could save the weight there too. and also remove the left leg volume control system. Probably knock a total of 50-100 grams out for some peoples set ups, maybe more.
The valve I'm using cannot pop out and hit me in the eye, was just a joke.
Gemini, will you post to Oz? I'd get two pairs if cheaper than cost here.
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No it doesn't. An air chamber that compresses forms a spring, negative chamber assists in offering negative preload if you will, but for a high volume air chamber with little pressure I don't think the initial stiffness will be an issue, but I guess it depends on what pressure you run. And if it does form to much stiffness initially at any decent pressure, it still should do a decent job at low pressure of offering some bottom out resistance, so stock oil height could be used and volume adjust removed to save weight. I know this is gross generalizing, and it's doubtful it'll perform as well as I hope, but it'll still offer some gains, if only small.
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I agree that the stock spring is too soft for the vast majority. I also think the next stiffer spring is too firm. (So yeah, I think they messed up the spring weights across the board.) The air cap looks like a good solution, allowing you to retain the benefits of a coil but get some of the custom tuneability of an air spring. It's not just preload. Assuming the chassis holds air, can you explain why you think it won't work?
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UDI, I'm with you mate, i'm currently chasing a firm spring. Certainly not thinking NSM's little trick will fix things for me with my current spring, but maybe with a firm spring it would add a little extra ramp up right near the end to resist bottoming harshly.. NOT having a good time trying ti find a firm spring though!
It's a Joes valve I'm using, not Stans sorry. Just incase anyone wants to look for it. Sure Stans or anything else would be fine though. The Joes has a wide metal bit to secure it in cap, not sure of others.
Yeah, but it does a very poor job of replicating an actual spring, because without a negative force (which is only slightly lower than the positive force in a true air spring, due to the piston surface area differential between +/- chambers) you end up pushing the fork towards topout and thus adding a strong undesirable preload component.
As you said at very low pressures this will be negligible, but bridge an entire spring rate it certainly won't.
Did you try the firm (6.5) spring? I've ridden both the stock spring (which was uncomfortably soft for me at 180lbs geared) and the firm spring, and the firm felt pretty good - still a little soft if anything. I ride a blue/medium fox and the firm 888 spring is still softer than that. I wonder if you actually tried an x-firm, or if the spring rate of your firm was just off by a fair bit...
See above for the answer to your second question.
Honestly I'd be looking for the x-firm if the claimed spring rates are correct (at 180 I'm between firm and x-firm), but I don't know if they are. That sucks that you can't find the spring.
I specifically asked for the next spring up from stock. I suppose there is a chance I got the wrong spring, but I've already passed it on to someone else so I can't check. The buttery initial stroke I love so much became way too harsh and I wasn't getting near full travel on some pretty big hits. (I'm around 200 lbs with gear.) And I'm not the only who feels they are between the stock and the firm spring.
This air cap idea seems worth a shot to bridge the gap, and I'm curious how it works out. NSM, keep us posted please.
This air cap idea seems worth a shot to bridge the gap, and I'm curious how it works out. NSM, keep us posted please.
I'll bet you got the x-firm then, like I said I've ridden the firm (one step up from stock) at 180 and found it quite reasonable - definitely had a pretty soft initial stroke still. Unless there are huge variations in these things. Be nice if they just came with all 3 springs, as the fork is quite good otherwise.
To start with, my shock pump starts at 15-20psi, so I have no idea of initial pressure. My forks did seem a bit stiff initially but not topping out. I quickly let more and more pressure out as I was not getting fill travel, and wound up my low speed rebound(Avy cart, but sorta same deal as Marz one). Ended up feeling pretty good. Was riding somewhere relatively smooth, but they did feel good in the rocks. Ended up at some small jumps that are only two foot high, but have bigger gaps between jump and landing than they did between the next jump. My rear's not dialed yet either, so I was struggling to get past the second jump, and was casing the third lip full front wheel, should've put me over the bars, but I did it again and again and again, using full travel, no harsh bottom out. Avy high speed rebound and bottom out cone probably had a big bit to do with this but.
So I just got a white ti spring from a mate, meant to be medium, my old ti one was wrapped in crap plastic with a dash of some colour paint on it. Are they both medium(stock)? How can you tell the weight of the full colour ones?
888 RC3/RCV/Evo Spring, '10-'12, Soft, Red
888 RC3/RCV/Evo Spring, '10-'12, Heavy, Green
888 RC3/RCV/Evo Spring, '10-'12, Extra Heavy
Taken from TFTuned. I presume the white is medium.
What do you think of the Avy cart compared to the stock 888 one, if you've tried both in close intervals?
888 RC3/RCV/Evo Spring, '10-'12, Heavy, Green
888 RC3/RCV/Evo Spring, '10-'12, Extra Heavy
Taken from TFTuned. I presume the white is medium.
What do you think of the Avy cart compared to the stock 888 one, if you've tried both in close intervals?
I'll have a look what my old medium snapped one was coloured.
I didn't ride the stock 888s long enough, and it's sort of trivial a bit anyway as both are so adjustable. I think the bottom out and mid stroke on the Avy might make them better, but it's just another shim stack and adjustment to bend your head over. and the stock 888s can via way different means be set up similer. Stock 888s feel pretty good. I just had the Avy cart already. Both stock 888 and my Avy cart one felt better than my freshly rebuilt(new cart + lube)08 40s. But I've not really given any of them a real good test, as I'm just riding local smooth tracks at present. and not done much riding since few months off with injury.
Edit Just realized the white Ti spring didn't bind up in my black stanchions. Been a hecktic day, and that was one of the things I was meant to keep note of
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After working like a charm all season plus three weeks at Whistler my v2 ti has developed some weird sticky feel at the beginning stroke. Tried everything from realigning to superslick, nothing works. My guess would be that the bushings are somehow screwed up or just plain worn out. Anyone has any ideas?
Hi guys,
What are the different parts between 888 evo V2 steel and V2 ti? I mean besides ti spring and bolts, are there any INTERNAL parts that's lighter?
The reason is I want the lightest possible 888 evo V2, but without the nickel stanchions (i guess some of you already done that)
So which parts to swap between them?
Thanks before..
What are the different parts between 888 evo V2 steel and V2 ti? I mean besides ti spring and bolts, are there any INTERNAL parts that's lighter?
The reason is I want the lightest possible 888 evo V2, but without the nickel stanchions (i guess some of you already done that)
So which parts to swap between them?
Thanks before..
http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/8982617/
Thanks,
Just swapped the spring and bolts, here are my findings* :
888 V2 = 3400gr (uncut)
888 V2 with ti spring (std light blue) and ti bolts = 3200gr (uncut) / 3160gr (160mm steerer)
888 V2 ti = 3080gr (uncut)
888 V2 ti with steel spring (std red) and steel bolts = 3240gr (uncut)
Stanchions difference = 120gr
*with cheapo scale with 20gr steps, so might not be 100% accurate
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'Evening everyone, i've been reading this thread with avid interest for a fair few months now, and it's helped me no end setting up my 12 888 ti's. My mainstay is setting up MX forks on an amateur level, and I don't proclaim to be a suspension guru, but I know my way around a set of forks. Anywhoo. I strongly agree that Marz stock spring is too soft for 50% of people out there. You can mess with VA etc etc but you simply can't compensate for the proper rate without compromising performance in other areas. We all know that Marz are going for the 'buttery super lovely floaty cushion feel', but that involves a fair amount of brake dive until the spring kicks in proper. Even on the V2.
I'll just offer my personal experience in the hope it can help someone as a lot of guys get lost in technicalities.
I'm a fairly average UK rider on a canyon torque FRX. I ride UKBP, cwmcarn, gawton, etc...
I weigh 12 stone (168lbs) and for 2-3 months rode the stock Ti spring with 5-10 pre load, 4-5 compression and 5-7 rebound. 2-5 VA. all in CLICKS from FULLY OPEN. I found this to be far too unsupportive mid stroke although utterly amazing else, but I'd REALLY struggle to bottom out if ever.
Swapped out to the supplied firm steel spring and the fork changes it's game totally. You've still got the lovely buttery beginning stroke, all be it a bit 'firmer', but the mid stroke is amazing. Don't get fooled into making preload and damping do the job that the correct spring should do. I found with the firm spring on board I could back the compression (which is LSC predominantly, but let's not forget though there is overlap) to 2-3 clicks and wind the VA all the way out and take 20ml of oil out of said VA.
Now I've got a feel that's not too shy of a 40. but with 1 year service intervals! I can only reiterate what many other far knowledgeable people have said before me. Get you spring rate sorted. its the most basic part of tuning any suspension system.
I hope this helps someone out there, sorry for a rambling first post!
I'll just offer my personal experience in the hope it can help someone as a lot of guys get lost in technicalities.
I'm a fairly average UK rider on a canyon torque FRX. I ride UKBP, cwmcarn, gawton, etc...
I weigh 12 stone (168lbs) and for 2-3 months rode the stock Ti spring with 5-10 pre load, 4-5 compression and 5-7 rebound. 2-5 VA. all in CLICKS from FULLY OPEN. I found this to be far too unsupportive mid stroke although utterly amazing else, but I'd REALLY struggle to bottom out if ever.
Swapped out to the supplied firm steel spring and the fork changes it's game totally. You've still got the lovely buttery beginning stroke, all be it a bit 'firmer', but the mid stroke is amazing. Don't get fooled into making preload and damping do the job that the correct spring should do. I found with the firm spring on board I could back the compression (which is LSC predominantly, but let's not forget though there is overlap) to 2-3 clicks and wind the VA all the way out and take 20ml of oil out of said VA.
Now I've got a feel that's not too shy of a 40. but with 1 year service intervals! I can only reiterate what many other far knowledgeable people have said before me. Get you spring rate sorted. its the most basic part of tuning any suspension system.
I hope this helps someone out there, sorry for a rambling first post!