[NY_Star]

There is a long list of things i would buy before a $8500 DH bike. Cars, Trucks, Dirt Bikes, and maybe i would even spend the money on RIDING MY BIKE MORE!!!

In all seriousness thought i cant believe that trek is going to make money by producing these frames. Our sport is small and the market for super expensive super high-end carbon frames is just not there. I got to believe that the majority of carbon road bikes are sold to people who ride once maybe twice a month and never race. How many people do you all know that just ride and want a $8500 bike so they can cruse their local trails?

 

[IH8Rice]

I got to believe that the majority of carbon road bikes are sold to people who ride once maybe twice a month and never race.

we sell tons of carbon bikes from Giant and C'Dale and all of our customers regularly ride....but those complete carbon bikes start at $1600 and up. and no, none of them race.

 

[tingers]

There is a long list of things i would buy before a $8500 DH bike. Cars, Trucks, Dirt Bikes, and maybe i would even spend the money on RIDING MY BIKE MORE!!!

In all seriousness thought i cant believe that trek is going to make money by producing these frames. Our sport is small and the market for super expensive super high-end carbon frames is just not there. I got to believe that the majority of carbon road bikes are sold to people who ride once maybe twice a month and never race. How many people do you all know that just ride and want a $8500 bike so they can cruse their local trails?

Most bike geeks (myself) want an $8500 bike. We just can't afford it.

 

[xy9ine]

In terms of structural performance, steel suffers from higher density (meaning thinner walls/more dents, or smaller diameter tubes, which are weaker/less stiff in bending), lower formability (no hydroforming or forging is going to happen at any reasonable cost) and lower machinability than aluminium. It isn't really something that will inherently last longer than an aluminium structure, and the manufacturing techniques are far less advanced. Steel frames have to be structurally very simple compared to aluminium/carbon, and as a result, there is a lot less potential for structural optimisation.

huh; well there i go. i'm just thinking of something appropriately designed w/ regards to the material w/ emphasis on durability & value. more along the philosophy of a bmx. simple straight tubed front tri and swingarm in a single pivot config w/ aluminum linkage. there's been a few bikes out there that suggest it may be feasible (thinking swd, katipo, those really cheap chilean things...).

 

[William42]

Most bike geeks (myself) want an $8500 bike. We just can't afford it.

I agree, I love my session 88, and I'd love to have a session 9.9, I just can't afford it.

 

[Tetreault]

In terms of structural performance, steel suffers from higher density (meaning thinner walls/more dents, or smaller diameter tubes, which are weaker/less stiff in bending), lower formability (no hydroforming or forging is going to happen at any reasonable cost) and lower machinability than aluminium. It isn't really something that will inherently last longer than an aluminium structure, and the manufacturing techniques are far less advanced. Steel frames have to be structurally very simple compared to aluminium/carbon, and as a result, there is a lot less potential for structural optimisation.

In theory this does apply, the problem i have found is that in reality when it comes to the make up of many modern frames the use of aluminum has moved to larger diameter tubes to maintain stiffness, but thinner walls are being implamented to keep the weight down, thus i find that even with higher grade materials, machining, hydroforming ect, alluminum frames seem to be having more problems then steel. All of my alu frames still dented like pop cans, and bending and fractures are a norm.

huh; well there i go. i'm just thinking of something appropriately designed w/ regards to the material w/ emphasis on durability & value. more along the philosophy of a bmx. simple straight tubed front tri and swingarm in a single pivot config w/ aluminum linkage. there's been a few bikes out there that suggest it may be feasible (thinking swd, katipo, those really cheap chilean things...).

this is where i wish the industry would be heading, unfortunatly its not flashy, doesn't have accronyms for suspensions designs, or high profile riders winning world cups on it. Marketing is a terrible animal, is ANYONE actually going to reap the bennefits of these new carbon frames? probably not, but they sure look cool between your legs

 

[Steve M]

In theory this does apply, the problem i have found is that in reality when it comes to the make up of many modern frames the use of aluminum has moved to larger diameter tubes to maintain stiffness, but thinner walls are being implamented to keep the weight down, thus i find that even with higher grade materials, machining, hydroforming ect, alluminum frames seem to be having more problems then steel. All of my alu frames still dented like pop cans, and bending and fractures are a norm.

Yep, but that's actually exactly my point - if you tried to achieve a comparable strength/stiffness to weight ratio with a steel frame, you'd end up with even thinner walls that dented even more easily.

I wouldn't say that aluminium frames are having "more problems" than steel though - there are 100x as many aluminium DH frames out there as there are steel ones, of course you're going to see a lot more broken. Find me a steel frame that's lighter than a Sunday frame for example, that is equally stiff and lasts longer... because I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist.

 

[Lelandjt]

Is ANYONE actually going to reap the bennefits of these new carbon frames? probably not, but they sure look cool between your legs

I'm really liking the light weight of my V10c. It's less tiring on real DH laps and more fun on mellower trails than my last V10.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

If you factor in maintanance it is not really cheaper.

if you factor in shuttling costs, lift tickets and all the logistics required to actually ride down hills, the cost per hour of actual use is cheaper.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

an on the topic of bike prices.
i remember when i was an impressionable 13yo, on a vacation trip to Florida... on of the first times i remeber i ever heard of "mountain bikes", this was around 1996... there was a bike magazine in a store reviewing a top of the line $3200 carbon mt bike... and i was like woooooooow!, $3200 bucks! jesus, carbon fiber!..

$3200 back in the day was an astronomical price... now, it seems it will not even get you a frame....

and then, the good days of the ironhorse sgs dh... 8" of travel, a boxxer up front, for less than $1500 NEW, complete...

bike prices went full retard quite a few seasons ago....

 

[Udi]

In terms of structural performance, steel suffers from higher density (meaning thinner walls/more dents, or smaller diameter tubes, which are weaker/less stiff in bending), lower formability (no hydroforming or forging is going to happen at any reasonable cost) and lower machinability than aluminium. It isn't really something that will inherently last longer than an aluminium structure, and the manufacturing techniques are far less advanced. Steel frames have to be structurally very simple compared to aluminium/carbon, and as a result, there is a lot less potential for structural optimisation.

Yeah but steel is real dude, aluminium like totally isn't.

 

[mountains4me]

I am actually working on a steel prototype high single pivot frame right now. My first design is going through a redesign because of a snapped tube. The redesign will be very much like the superco silencer without the jackshaft drive. Doc's design was very good, and the jack shaft was a very clean way of negotiating the drivetrain issues with a high pivot. But his design is expensive to produce.

Steel is a great material for those seeking longevity and repairability (to a point). Since most aluminum dh frames now are using thinner walls, you will have the same issues with them as a thin wall steel frame. But barring a crash, steel will take more of a beating for a longer period of time. You can also reapair minor dents in the down tube cheaply.

Welding on aluminum without reheat-treating, may not work out so well for a repair on a dh frame.

 

[xy9ine]

^pics?

 

[demo 9]

My mom wont even buy this bike, what are they thinking?

 

[Verskis]

$3200 back in the day was an astronomical price... now, it seems it will not even get you a frame....

and then, the good days of the ironhorse sgs dh... 8" of travel, a boxxer up front, for less than $1500 NEW, complete...

bike prices went full retard quite a few seasons ago....

Yes, super high end bike prices keep on increasing, but at the same time, I think there are more decent DH bikes available with a tolerable price tag than ever before.
Just look at YT Industries Tues, budget version of Kona Operator, Saracen Myst, next year's Specialized Status, Canyon Torque FRX, Sette Vexx, rumoured next year Nukeproof Scalp completes etc.

 

[Dogboy]

Yes, super high end bike prices keep on increasing, but at the same time, I think there are more decent DH bikes available with a tolerable price tag than ever before.
Just look at YT Industries Tues, budget version of Kona Operator, Saracen Myst, next year's Specialized Status, Canyon Torque FRX, Sette Vexx, rumoured next year Nukeproof Scalp completes etc.

Yep, and I'd also include the GT Fury alloy in with those you listed.

 

[William42]

also, I suspect that trek doesn't give a flying fyck if a bunch of wankers can't afford them. I'm willing to bet they'll sell out, since OCLV are typically made to order and can take a few weeks - months, and the fact that only a few people can actually afford them just makes them that much cooler and builds the hype that much more. Price will come down to 8 G's next year, other bikes will go up, and suddenly it wont seem like that much any more to have the sickest (trek hopes) bike on the market.

 

[IH8Rice]

since when are OCLV frames made to order?

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

i saw a bike shop in Colorado, which for $8500 gave you.

airfare to Colorado to pick up the bike
2 nights of lodging
lift-ticket to local park
1 day of DH instruction.
on top of the complete trek session

apparently $8500 is trek´s version of the "AMG experience"... nobody will be paying retail.

 

[slyfink]

Find me a steel frame that's lighter than a Sunday frame for example, that is equally stiff and lasts longer... because I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist.

how much did the Sunday weigh? this one comes in at 11lb w shock... (claimed) http://www.dobermannbikes.com/en/products/downhill/stella

 

[Dogboy]

how much did the Sunday weigh? this one comes in at 11lb w shock... (claimed) http://www.dobermannbikes.com/en/products/downhill/stella

A late-model Sunday frame was about 10.5 with shock for a medium. That Dobermann looks like it has a 8.5" shock.

 

[William42]

since when are OCLV frames made to order?

fair enough. They make them in small batches and frequently build more of them throughout the year. They can make 20 or 300 of them, depending on orders. I didn't mean to imply they were made individually to order.

 

[ridefast]

carbon session....2 year warranty

although, they list 5 year on swing arms

 

[mountains4me]

^pics?

Soon. I am now in the process of cutting some new tubes, then i need to design some pieces that will be laser cut. Here is a couple during the build think. I need to organize all my pics into my own folder. My wife takes a million pics, too many to weed through. Almost all my pics are on my phone, and my computer is a mac so i cannot upload them/or i have not figured out how. I do have a lot of time right now for that stuff.

 

[mountains4me]

Oh, one of the photos is wrong, oh well. I'll try too post more along the way. Between bike building, riding, trail building and working 50-60 hrs a week and a family, i am stretched thin to spend time posting stuff.

 

[Trekrules]

Seen the prices of the bikes in my country on the Sessions

Session 8 €3.999
Session 88 €5.499
Session 9.9 €7.999
Session 9.9 Frame €4.499

 

[Mo(n)arch]

4500€ for frame only?

 

[Racebike]

The prices are similar here in Sweden.

Ri-DONK-ulous!

 

[Santa Maria]

Seen the prices of the bikes in my country on the Sessions

Session 9.9 €7.999
Session 9.9 Frame €4.499

LOL, this bike must be two times better than say a demo - am I right?

Wait another year and I bet you will get a serious priced carbon frame...., eben the V 10 looks like a bargain aginst this price!

 

[norbar]

LOL, this bike must be two times better than say a demo - am I right?

Wait another year and I bet you will get a serious priced carbon frame...., eben the V 10 looks like a bargain aginst this price!

Actually the v10s are a bit better priced in some countries The session for 4500 euro is absolutely crazy. For 3k euro you get an antidote - a low quantity butique bike so why is it 30% more expensive? I doubt trek has higher production costs. Not to mention I got my Legend for close to 1/3 of that price. It was a lower preorder price and the exchange rate was a bit better but it still was normal price with no bro deals. Seriously WTF?

 

[IH8Rice]

. For 3k euro you get an antidote - a low quantity butique bike so why is it 30% more expensive? I doubt trek has higher production costs.

if i was spending that kind of money, that extra 30% would be worth it to buy a CF frame from someone who knows what they are doing, instead of a no-name boutique company with zero history of CF work.

 

[norbar]

if i was spending that kind of money, that extra 30% would be worth it to buy a CF frame from someone who knows what they are doing, instead of a no-name boutique company with zero history of CF work.

I was rather commenting on the costs. I know that the antidote guys still dont have a huck tester for their frame but I doubt that 30% extra comes from costs not price positioning. Imho they just want to promote it as a ferreri bike so they decided to make it the most expensive bike ever.

 

[IH8Rice]

I was rather commenting on the costs. I know that the antidote guys still dont have a huck tester for their frame but I doubt that 30% extra comes from costs not price positioning.

that 30% probably comes from the R&D that they put into it..unlike Antidote. an of course the price premium for making a CF frame.

 

[norbar]

that 30% probably comes from the R&D that they put into it..unlike Antidote. an of course the price premium for making a CF frame.

Yeah, the v10 which is cheaper than antidote probably put less in R&D too

 

[ridefast]

looks like antidote has lifetime warranty

 

[IH8Rice]

Yeah, the v10 which is cheaper than antidote probably put less in R&D too

no, its just antidote pricing themselves above SC

 

[norbar]

no, its just antidote pricing themselves above SC

Low quantity sales = higher price. It is not as random as you make it. If they could produce more frames the price would probably go down.

Still do you really belive SC R&D costs are 30% lower than Trek and GTs are only a bit lower hence the 4k price? I understand that you prefer frames from a known company and in case of carbon it seems like a safe bet but I doubt the production cost to price ratio is fixed for all carbon frames

 

[xy9ine]

looks like antidote has lifetime warranty

which is kinda meaningless w/ a company like that. who knows if they'll even be about in 5 years?

 

[RedOne]

Just don't buy it if you can't afford it.

 

[klunky]

So I checked with trek again today and got them to double check...

The bike does NOT come with a fork - so thats a £4000 frame in the uk.
Good luck Trek but I dont see anyone paying £1200 more for Trek than they would for a V-10.

At present they are not selling the alloy as a frame only but my guess is that this might change.