[Rockland]

It's a good starting point to see what is worn out in there. There are those who experience leaking at the caliper end ( it's happened to me as well ), but the inconsistency issues stem from the lever.

The plastic piston in your lever will likely show scuffing on the largest diameters that contact the lever bore. The scuffing will be uneven as well due to the piston seeing side loads from the design of the servowave movement combined with the minimal amount of "bearing land".

U-cup seals on the piston are likely tired, and can't compensate for extra radial movement of the piston in the lever bore.

The lever bore may be scored at worst - slightly worn at best. While any anodizing may have been light to non-existant; I don't think this is necessarily the major culprit. The fluid can become discolored, but we are looking for a wholesale leak-by of the seal. Every single Shimano lever I have put miles on exhibits the same behavior. Inner seal will not allow line pressure to build, and maintain that pressure, when it passes the timing port in the lever. Outer seal also allows fluid out, and the outside world dirt in. The outside of my lever shouldn't be damp all the time.

What can you do? Don't invest too much time in surgery, unless you really like experimenting. Shimano went cheap and disposable with the design. Also the bushing for the lever pivot is just a tiny bit of plastic (usually integrated into the plastic track for the servowave mechanism. Lever play on every one I own. I'll wear these out even before the internal issues develop. It's kinda sad. I hate throwing things out.


-You can rob the piston and seals from another lever. The lower the use the better. Low level series levers like some of the Deore even have the MC piston as aluminum. This may help, but only will buy you time.

-Mad scientist route. There are small flex hones made for 10mm bores. Refinish the bore --> Measurements (ugg this is a pain) --> Source new seals: example https://www.mfpseals.com/content/mfp-seals-engineering-guide-vol-3 ( this is way too much bother ) --> ??? --> I can tell you this does not end with profit.

-Best fix. Get a brand new lever. Get the usable lifespan out of it.

-Best plan. Change to another brand.

Already wrote too much. It's too bad Cura 4's aren't working out for you. I'm 4 months in on mine with no issues.

No. Why?

 

[jstuhlman]

Know anywhere in Freedomeland that sells them? Trying to avoid ordering from zee Germans and paying $20 shipping

I got mine from Universal Cycles (i know the ones in the pic by the link aren't the 4's - the link is to all of their formula pads. they do have the 4's in sintered)

Formula Disc Brake Pads

Formula Disc Brake Pads :: From $19.99 :: Formula Disc Brake Pads

www.universalcycles.com

 

[Nick]

What can you do?

thanks for the notes.
I was thinking 'big picture' as in, if it was a matter of a single sub component making the critical difference I'd experiment. I'm not trying to extend the life of a worn component that has an excellent warranty. I just swap them when they're toast.

 

[maxyedor]

I got mine from Universal Cycles (i know the ones in the pic by the link aren't the 4's - the link is to all of their formula pads. they do have the 4's in sintered)

Formula Disc Brake Pads

Formula Disc Brake Pads :: From $19.99 :: Formula Disc Brake Pads

www.universalcycles.com

Gracias, my Googe fu is weak as shit and I couldn't find them anywhere. Ordering through an LBS is going to take at least two weeks, if they can even figure out what Formula brakes are.

 

[kidwoo]

So how bout that bionol and how does it compare to other mineral oils?

IE: will there be any seal incompatibility? I see udi's spreadsheet stuff on it but no mention of any sort of comparable seal behavior like the DOT world.

 

[maxyedor]

Zee Germans seem to being using Royal blood with their Trick-guras/Mag-stuff mash ups https://www.mtb-news.de/forum/t/trigura-how-to-direttissima-pumpe-und-mt5-sattel.820819/

Allegedly the Bionol will work in any mineral oil brake, so I assume it works the other way around as well.

 

[kidwoo]

I just hope it smells like french fries when it gets hot. I really really genuinely hope it smells like french fries.

 

[Lemke]

I run Bionol in my turbo diesel truck... and it does smell like french fries on my way to the park.

 

[Udi]

Good input, but I'm also trying to nerd it out a bit by looking at the hydraulic leverage, which is greater on the V4/Tech3 combo than on the MT5/7. Which gives me to wonder if it's just the stock pads that are better/softer/grabbier on the Magura? Or does an unequal/equal piston size matter that much for the feel of a brake?

1. Total leverage is a function of the COMBINATION of mechanical and hydraulic leverage ratio: equal importance.
2. The MT7 / DRT / M820 have noticeably higher peak force than the V4
3. Spreadsheet was a mess (unknown edits), I've reverted to a version from December 2018 for now

Look at the first orange column for total leverage.
These numbers aren't accurate for every brake, but from memory for the DRT, MT7, V4 they are, as we obtained measurements for every component - if memory serves me right - it was a long time ago.

I take it the mechanical leverage in the sheet for the Magura's is with the longer lever. So if I use them with the shorter HC lever, this will be slightly less, maybe comparable to the Tech3.

You've made a whole bunch of assumptions in 2 sentences.
1. Go measure the levers before assuming our number is for the long one.
2. "Slightly" and "comparable" are words for pinkbike reviews.
3. Don't be the guy who signs up to say how great V4s are, our last resident genius "Wuffles" went on this excursion already.

The Hope V4 is a well built brake (better than average), they're also underpowered for big wheels by today's standards, and have greater than ideal lever throw. The Magura has inferior build quality to Hope (notably at the lever) but the MT7 stops significantly better. Shimano sadly has a smorgasboard of unresolved issues with levers and calipers. If you want it all you have to pay for it - otherwise just choose the flavour of mediocrity which offends you the least.

If the peak force of the V4 is sufficient for you, and the throw is acceptable to you, my advice is to stick with them.

 

[slimshady]

From my most recent net tour I just learned several of the Scott riders have been using TRP levers mated to taped Cura 2-pot calipers. @buckoW do you have any insight on this?

 

[Boozzz]

Haha cheers for that @Udi, I'm in no way saying how great V4 are, I just really like their build quality, but they could use some more power. With the spreadsheet in mind, I thought that might be achievable with just some Trickstuff pads. I hang out quite a bit on PB, so you know where I get my lingual assumptions from

I was actually asking because I'm looking for some new brakes for my new trials bike build. Using Hope Trial Zones on my current bike, and I want to switch, mainly because you need rediculously expensive disc rotors that get bent all the time (because of the very high/wide brake track, only Hope TZ/V2 rotors are appropriate), and the rear Hope Race lever has completely worn out. Seems like MT5s are an economical choice, just that I don't like that weak lever. Hence that got me thinking about another set of V4. But that's probably not a wise decision for trials use.

 

[Udi]

Yeah you should try the Trickstuff pads, might help.
I did find the Hope organic pads pretty good too (they're rebranded Galfer "Red"), the TS ones aren't much better in the dry (not in a bad way, I just thought the Galfer ones were already pretty good), probably the only benefit is that the TS also work in the wet.

I do agree with you about the weak MT5 lever, if it's going to be taking hits (I'm not familiar with trials, but obviously they see the ground plenty in DH too) then it's probably not the best choice. For what it's worth a lot of riders I know are on the MT5/MT7 these days, and while most of them have levers ziptied together and all sorts of nonsense, they are still working and stop pretty well!

Does the V4 have less power than the trial zone? It'd at least let you run normal rotors of any brand.
Maybe you can find a combo of hope lever and V4 caliper which will give the right stopping force with the lever durability you need.

PS. no hate on the PB forums, seem to be a cool bunch who still ride DH, just the front page reviews.

 

[Boozzz]

Levers can take a good beating in trials, especially as I usually ride (and crash) on concrete. But I'm mostly worried about the stress the back brake lever sees from just from riding, it's basically constantly being engaged/disengaged with a lot of finger force. After a few seasons, the whole pivot assembly of the rear Hope Race lever is quite worn out; the brass bushing has ovalised and been replaced a few times, now to no avail as the bushing hole in the lever blade itself has also ovalised. Plus I've also replaced the rod that pushes the master cylinder once, as the threads were mangled from just riding a lot. So being able to replace parts as they wear is what I also like about Hope.

Hard to say on the power of the V4 vs the Trial Zone, they're on such different bikes. I get the feeling the Trial Zone has a more sudden grab/bite, but not too sure on peak power. I guess I've got to take the V4s from the big bike and put them on the trials bike for a test ride. When I've got some extra time Will report back when I've tested this out.

 

[Udi]

Definitely worth trying the V4 on there by the sounds, the lever pivot is larger on the T3 from memory and the brass bushing is replaced with a roller / linear piston assembly which seems more durable to me - you'd know better though. If it has enough stopping force, it'd probably sort both the lever durability and proprietary rotor issues.

 

[jonKranked]

If you want it all you have to pay for it

on this note, do you plan on trying the new maximas?

 

[Udi]

on this note, do you plan on trying the new maximas?

Already written my take on the Maxima here:
https://ridemonkey.bikemag.com/threads/frankenbrakes-and-brake-improvement-discussion.274164/page-26#post-4317407

DRT has shorter throw, is lighter, and already matches/beats the peak force of every (other) market brake.
Maxima increases peak force further, at cost of longer throw and greater mass.
Piccola decreases mass further, at cost of less peak force.

The beauty of the DRT to me is in the balance of throw, peak force, and mass.

The Maxima will have a place in future though, on 29" DH bikes and eventually, weight-optimized e-bikes.
So basically, no one on RM except @buckoW, but likely a significant audience globally (and in WC DH).

 

[chris_f]

Think I'll just toss some DRT levers on my MT7 when I eventually break the flimsy lever plastic lever bodies.

 

[jonKranked]

Already written my take on the Maxima here:
https://ridemonkey.bikemag.com/threads/frankenbrakes-and-brake-improvement-discussion.274164/page-26#post-4317407

DRT has shorter throw, is lighter, and already matches/beats the peak force of every (other) market brake.
Maxima increases peak force further, at cost of longer throw and greater mass.
Piccola decreases mass further, at cost of less peak force.

The beauty of the DRT to me is in the balance of throw, peak force, and mass.

The Maxima will have a place in future though, on 29" DH bikes and eventually, weight-optimized e-bikes.
So basically, no one on RM except @buckoW, but likely a significant audience globally (and in WC DH).

Must've missed that post, thanks for the info.

 

[6thElement]

Think I'll just toss some DRT levers on my MT7 when I eventually break the flimsy lever plastic lever bodies.

How are you finding MT7's?

I think they might have sneaked ahead of Code's if I were to replace my RO's.

 

[Nick]

How are you finding MT7's?

I think they might have sneaked ahead of Code's if I were to replace my RO's.

Doesn't @Da Peach run those? IIRC he's a fan.

 

[chris_f]

How are you finding MT7's?

I think they might have sneaked ahead of Code's if I were to replace my RO's.

I absolutely adore them, but in my opinion you need to put the HC3 levers on them. The standard lever is weird and too long.

I'm aware of the limitations on them, but they perform really well.

 

[Da Peach]

Doesn't @Da Peach run those? IIRC he's a fan.

Yep. They’re awesome. But I think the HC3 lever is important for fit. I love em.

I absolutely adore them, but in my opinion you need to put the HC3 levers on them. The standard lever is weird and too long.

I'm aware of the limitations on them, but they perform really well.

See?

 

[Happymtb.fr]

For those who want to go even lighter, there are the Piccola HD (Piccola levers with DRT calipers)

TRICKSTUFF Disc Brake Piccola HD Post Mount | Set, 847,50 €

TRICKSTUFF disc brake Piccola HD Post Mount | set When Trickstuff developed the Piccola, they opted for the same hydraulic ratio and overall piston size as

r2-bike.com

 

[jonKranked]

For those who want to go even lighter, there are the Piccola HD (Piccola levers with DRT calipers)

TRICKSTUFF Disc Brake Piccola HD Post Mount | Set, 847,50 €

TRICKSTUFF disc brake Piccola HD Post Mount | set When Trickstuff developed the Piccola, they opted for the same hydraulic ratio and overall piston size as

r2-bike.com

yea, poking around the TS website, it seems as if you can mix and match levers and calipers.

 

[jonKranked]

I've wanted to post some things in this thread for a while now, there'll be more to come soon as I'm supposed to be fitting and bleeding a set of new Cura4 for a buddy this afternoon.

First things first, I wanted to make some commentary on the maxima.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1894071550/trickstuff-maxima-hydraulic-bicycle-disc-brake

I noticed these points in their list (obviously applies to the direttissima also):

• Additional teflon support ring next to secondary seal: Prevents aluminum piston from rubbing against the cylinder bore for a wear free piston.
• Anodized BMC piston bore: Piston bore free from wear: no black brake fluid after months of riding

Is it just me or have trickstuff been reading our brake thread? I felt like I was reading my own words, words I'd never seen them use before (in any of the DRT marketing material, etc). Of course these things are true, but the phrasing is awfully familar...

More importantly - while I agree with almost everything they say - there are some things they DON'T tell you about the Maxima, which I was hoping someone else would notice and comment on.

If we've already minimised pad rollback as much as practically possible (DRT, Cura4), and thus pad/piston:rotor clearance, how can we get higher peak force from a brake without variable mechanical leverage (i.e. SW)? The single-pivot mechanical leverage curve is already fairly well optimised on the DRT (the close-to-bar pivot point helps a lot), and to simply increase hydraulic leverage would increase lever throw in direct proportion. So what did they do? Basically the latter - they claim small changes to the mechanical curve, but the reality is: the maxima will have noticeably longer free-throw than the diretissima. Trickstuff are not stupid, they have attempted to address this by "including the upgraded stainless braided hoses" for you. In reality these aren't an option, they are mandatory - they reduce the "squish" (practically + specifically: lever travel beyond the pad contact point) in the system so that even though the brake has longer free throw, it does not then travel into a physically unsafe range (which can and does happen on rear Saint M820 brakes for example - fixed by people running the static reach very far out, forcing extra fluid into the system, all sorts). This is absolutely no different to the Hope V4 vs. E4, if you put plastic hoses back on a set of V4s, the practical throw (i.e. free throw + throw beyond contact point together) will become too long.

However the reality is, stainless hoses don't reverse the increase in free throw that the maxima experiences, so this "solution" is a compensation of one thing for another, and those things are NOT the same. Stainless hoses also add mass, so what you have is a brake that is a) heavier than the DRT, mandatory, and b) has longer free throw than the DRT: also mandatory. I think it's an acceptable compromise / solution if VERY high braking force is required (i.e. WC-level DH rider on 29" bike, for example), and could potentially remove the need for a 225 rotor in that scenario.

Now just to be fair: the DRT does have much shorter free-throw than any brake with competing peak force (M820, MT7) and even manages shorter free-throw than brakes with less peak force (Guide, Code, V4, etc). So I imagine the Maxima will still be decent on this front.

It's great that they made an even more powerful brake, this is a company I encourage people to support.
I don't like the sneakily implied "free lunch" rubbish though, so I wanted to bust that myth.



The other thing I wanted to address is this.
I already mentioned earlier in the thread that the Enduro MTB test left some things to be desired. Yes the DRT won that test (although I can't find the numerical torque results graph anymore?), but I pointed out once already that while yes the DRT is an excellent brake, dyno testing 10 brakes with 10 different pad compounds and materials dilutes the force information about the actual brake, by adding the pad as a significant variable. To me, these tests mean very little.

Now Trickstuff has gone and done their own test - but yet again - all different pads, and reading the fine print they go on about a new pad compound for the Maxima - which makes me wonder if they even used the same pad compound for the DRT and Maxima in that test. Did no one see that huge jump in supposed peak momentum and think, hang on, is that possible?

If we look carefully at the results we can see some interesting things.
1. M820 curve is different to the others, we can see the aggressive servo wave acting early
2. All the brakes are using either organic pads or sintered metal pads with heatsinks, except for one brake which is using a pad that is both sintered AND has no heatsink. This brake is the V4, which scores strangely low on the test.

I know most people think sintered pads are great - the reality is they're great until you overheat them, which actually happens very easily in hard use (eg. bikepark), and once overheated the peak friction force drops permanently. Guys like buckoW throw out sintered pads daily because they lose too much bite and become useless and dangerous very quickly, personally I ran Trickstuff organic pads in the DRT all last season, except for a few weeks where I switched to Shimano sintered (non-heatsink) pads to test, and I wrecked them to the point of very little bite within just one day of runs. I went through 3-4 brand new pairs and put them back in their packets each after a day or two of riding. I've still got those pads, with 90% pad material remaining, but peak friction level: now useless.

If you use full sintered pads under hard use for longer than a day, you need to limit their peak heat, and the only way this is done successfully is through the genuine Shimano heatsink system (i.e. direct physical contact between metal pad material and aluminium heatsink, riveted together as one piece with stainless backing).

Obviously it's hard to comment on the temperature-driven permanent deterioration of a smorgasboard of different organic pads used in the other brakes, but at least on the ones I've experienced (Magura MT7, Formula, Trickstuff), they hold up much better than the average heatsink-less sintered pad.

The sintered pads on the V4 may have easily been pushed into their permanent-friction-reduced-zone after merely breaking the pads in. Using the galfer-made red organic Hope pads would have been a fairer comparison.

If anyone has followed this far, the general point I'm making is that these tests are not very useful, but this test in particular was probably unfair to the Hope V4. I don't own the V4, but I think the purpose of this thread is to separate fact from fiction - and the important thing to remember about testing is that the results are only as useful as how well the test was designed.

going back on this post, on the enduro brake test, in order to really isolate more brake variables you'd want to test the same pad material on all brakes; are there even any pad mnfgs that make the same compound pads for all the brakes in scope of the testing? what other variables would you want to see isolated to get a less biased result?

 

[Happymtb.fr]

are there even any pad mnfgs that make the same compound pads for all the brakes in scope of the testing?

Trickstuff does and most probably Galfer, Swissstop and some other

Having the same disc would be needed to be able to compare.

Then it might be tricky to go around the fact that the mechanical leverage from the lever and the swinglink / servowave / etc will change depending on how far the MC is from the timing port at the rest position...

 

[jonKranked]

Trickstuff does and most probably Galfer, Swissstop and some other

Having the same disc would be needed to be able to compare.

agreed. would also need to ensure that the wheels would be accelerated to the same velocity.

Then it might be tricky to go around the fact that the mechanical leverage from the lever and the swinglink / servowave / etc will change depending on how far the MC is from the timing port at the rest position...

i think that's something inherent to each brake system that should be included as part of any such evaluation, as that will help demonstrate how the brake system will perform. along these lines i'd also wondered about evaluating contact area between the pads/rotors, but again, that's something i'd want to include because that's how a given brake system is designed.

 

[Udi]

going back on this post, on the enduro brake test, in order to really isolate more brake variables you'd want to test the same pad material on all brakes; are there even any pad mnfgs that make the same compound pads for all the brakes in scope of the testing? what other variables would you want to see isolated to get a less biased result?

Just remove the pads all together. If you want to test brake pads, test all pads in a single brake.
If you want to test brake force, it could be done both analytically (easy if you have the mechanical leverage curve from a design drawing, a little harder for us working in reverse, hydraulic leverage trivial though) or experimentally via load cell/s, possibly over varied input forces, being careful to normalize the input geometry / force application (significant leverage curve variables occur due to simple things like free throw, and reach adjustment choice). A brake dyno is really more for durability testing, using it as a force test with different pads is silly.

I think what most don't realise though is the key problems with most current brakes isn't the peak force, nor is it anything that is easily calculable analytically, nor even easily measured on the the magic dyno of pointless number generation.

Variables which separate good brakes from bad are tolerances, clearances, longevity, repeatability, dead zone, inconsistencies, materials, mfg processes... fundamentally design and manufacturing problems, most of which will show up long after Levy's raving pinkbike review (or the somewhat pointless Enduro-MTB wanktest - I should spread my hate better).

Long story short, we can measure/calculate if the brake will stop well enough for a given application, and we can measure/calculate throw and force results of mixing components. We can't measure/calculate many things that matter in a brake though, which is why two brakes could stop exactly the same with one being good and the other bad or dangerous.

For those who want to go even lighter, there are the Piccola HD (Piccola levers with DRT calipers)

Wouldn't bother - mechanical leverage curve has less progression due to the more linear actuation (from visual inspection anyway, haven't measured) so you'd likely sacrifice peak force. Geometry (main pivot distance from bar) looks inferior too.

The last thing anyone should do if they're investing in the DRT (or Maxima) is to shoot the system in the foot before getting out the door, especially given the stock DRT complete is much lighter than most other brakes anyway at ~235g/end. The levers are the stars of the show, it'd be silly to skip them for the sake of a further 15g on a brake this light already.

Hayes Dominion, Magura MT-5, MT-7, Hope V4, Saint M820, all around 300g/end for comparison.

 

[jonKranked]

Variables which separate good brakes from bad are tolerances, clearances, longevity, repeatability, dead zone, inconsistencies, materials, mfg processes... fundamentally design and manufacturing problems, most of which will show up long after Levy's raving pinkbike review (or the somewhat pointless Enduro-MTB wanktest - I should spread my hate better).

in my industry we spend a pretty insane amount of time validating all our processes to ensure that everything meets spec within its intended tolerance range. i'd be curious to know to what degree this is done for mtb brakes, but i think i already know the answer.

 

[jonKranked]

The last thing anyone should do if they're investing in the DRT (or Maxima) is to shoot the system in the foot before getting out the door, especially given the stock DRT complete is much lighter than most other brakes anyway at ~235g/end. The levers are the stars of the show, it'd be silly to skip them for the sake of 15g on a brake this light already.

 

[chris_f]

"Don't gimp the powerful DH brake system you are interested in by putting XC levers on that bitch."

I'm paraphrasing, obviously.

 

[jonKranked]

"Don't gimp the powerful DH brake system you are interested in by putting XC levers on that bitch."

I'm paraphrasing, obviously.

ah, missed the context on that one.

 

[Kurt_80]

Yep. They’re awesome. But I think the HC3 lever is important for fit. I love em.



See?

Hey @chris_f and @Da Peach , any reason you went for the HC3 lever over the HC1? Also, is the MT5 really that much worse than the MT7? I know @norbar had heard scare stories from others, wondered about your experiences.

 

[Sandwich]

The only differences between the 5s and 7s are in the lever and pads. The pads on the MT5 are single piece, with two pads machined together. The MT7s have four individual pads.

The levers on the 7s have adjustable bite point and on the fly reach. The 5s are wrench-reach, but the blades actually reach closer to the bar because magura. The HC3 lever gives you multiple adjustment points so you can get the flat of the blade right where you want it. The blades are wicked fucking expensive, so if you're going to upgrade, you may as well spend $130 on the HC3 rather than $125 on the HC1. Apparently the HC levers are not compatible with the MT5, but at the cost of those things you can buy a separate brakeset to operate those levers and get real udi with it.

 

[chris_f]

Hey @chris_f and @Da Peach , any reason you went for the HC3 lever over the HC1?

Thereason I ended up with HC3 levers was because I bought the cool looking but viciously overpriced limited edition Danny Macaskill version of the MT7. This is the version that the levers was developed for, and it was only afterwards that it became available as an aftermarket option.

It had obviously been sitting for a while at the warehouse though, because there were some niggles with the pistons in the calipers sticking, so I sent them back and got a loaner set of baseline MT7s with the long-ass levers to use while they fixed my brakes. This is why I've been able to compare them back-to-back(-to-back.)


The HC1 looks to me like it'd still have some of the weird ergonomics issues of the OG lever, so I wanted the HC3 to avoid that.

 

[Da Peach]

Hey @chris_f and @Da Peach , any reason you went for the HC3 lever over the HC1? Also, is the MT5 really that much worse than the MT7? I know @norbar had heard scare stories from others, wondered about your experiences.

I got a deal on the HC3. They also seemed like they made the levers closest to the shape of XT/XTR, which I really like.

 

[vinny4130]

Something I was told was the top tier magura calipers have less roll back built into the piston seal, this and the individual pads make it more pronounced.

 

[mykel]

Hayes Dominion A4

Well the front brake seems to have developed a Shimano complex.

Pulled to the bar the other day mid ride. Wound the adjuster out and got some brake back, enough to turn around and make it out of the trails. By the time I was home it was to the bar with no more adjustment. So checked everything, no leaks or signs of a leak, did a full bleed and was feeling as good as can be. Checked it several times that night, no issues, checked in the am, no issues. Packed up and rode in to a build site, slung some dirt, and when I went to leave a few hours later, lever pulls to the bar. Wound out the adjustment and rode out. So far it has not moved any more. Visual still shows no sign of a leak.

Wrote Hayes an e-mail looking for some advice - figured trim the line and new olive, re-bleed and give it a shot. Dude at Hayes said I have already done enough. So they dropped a Fed-Ex care package in the mail for me including...

New front brake
Pro bleed kit
Spare package including
olives, banjos, line, caliper rebuild kit.

No LBS involved.

At this point I was not looking for any warranty. So, not too bad for just asking for some advice. Looks like they are really trying to make and keep people happy.

And finally, the rear brake has been stellar, don't think I have adjusted it more than 2 clicks since I built the bike. The front was the same until it shit the bed.

Fingers crossed that is the end of the issues

 

[chris_f]

While it is good that they have excellent customer service, it is worrying that there was no discernible cause for this problem when you worked on it.

 

[mykel]

While it is good that they have excellent customer service, it is worrying that there was no discernible cause for this problem when you worked on it.

Well based upon the amount of air I pulled out with the bleed, there is a leak somewhere, enough to pass air, but not fluid. There are 3 bleed ports and all have a set-screw (Lever has 1, caliper has 2, one on each side) I opened and closed all three during the bleed. I also checked tightness at the banjo, but did not loosen, also checked tightness of the olive/lever end, and again tight. Pistons seem to be extending and retracting equally, nothing appears stuck, and no leaks. Bike has not been crashed, and has not fallen over where something got a knock. The Hayes integrated olive and barb would appear to eliminate one possible leak point.

Past this I really don't know, just happy I don't have to chase my tail.