[Wuffles]

so.................'trail bike'

The old definition of trail bike, sure.

But trail bikes these days come with coil shocks, Minions, and the HTAs from DH bikes 10 years ago. Which is good, but there is a special kind of fun to be had in being way undergunned for a trail and still coming out in one piece, which is where downcountry comes in.

 

[Jm_]

The old definition of trail bike, sure.

But trail bikes these days come with coil shocks, Minions, and the HTAs from DH bikes 10 years ago. Which is good, but there is a special kind of fun to be had in being way undergunned for a trail and still coming out in one piece, which is where downcountry comes in.

Well, at the cost of stringing this out even more, I'll say:

I don't see many, if any, trailbikes coming with coil shocks, in fact, I still see way too many air shocks on stuff where it's not appropriate. Most people "just don't know", so I guess no one really cares enough and it's cheaper for all the manufacturers...it's just not appropriate for the type of riding the bikes are geared towards. I'm not talking about the light trail bikes, I'm talking about the enduro ones. A few come with coils...but not many.

The way I see the "downoncunty" is kind of like those old FS DS bikes. Small travel meant for hard riding. Something that can be ripped on a smoother trail downhill with relatively big jumps. Big tech is going to be it's weak point, but most downhills are not big tech and on most downhills, you are faster on a lighter more efficient bike. It takes some pretty serious gnar downhill chunk to make an enduro and downhill bike faster and everyone thinks they ride this when in reality, either they do not or it only constitutes like 1% of their DH riding. So the idea is you can rip most of the DHs faster and have higher cornering speeds, shoot out of the corners faster, make the big air, etc. You don't need a lot of travel for this and IMO, if done right, it could be a hell of a fun bike that covers a lot of riding. It won't be as optimal in the bigger or steeper stuff, but the HA and (hopefully) coil shock keep it manageable. Back when we started riding, 3 and 4" of travel was "downhill" and it was all coil sprung.

When you start adding it all up, you start splitting the hairs though. Just like Rideit, why not go for a SB115 instead of a SB100? You are only giving up an infinitesimally small amount of XC pedaling prowess to get a more all-around ride. All of this just kind of takes me back to the beginning and makes me think that "downcountry" as it exists today is just an over-forked XC race bike and nothing more (with the components of your choice hanging on it).

 

[rideit]

Well put. To be clear, I am going for a 140/150 bike, I was constantly underbiked on the yeti, like all the time (Except climbing, of course). I use it for our more sanitized, after-work front country trails, mostly. It is still really capable, though.

 

[Toshi]

I'm quite happy with 150/140 + 29" out here.

 

[iRider]

The way I see the "downoncunty" is kind of like those old FS DS bikes. Small travel meant for hard riding. Something that can be ripped on a smoother trail downhill with relatively big jumps.

This is why I ride a "TrailTazer" (not the motorcycle though) around these parts.

 

[Mo(n)arch]

Just design them around a full 1.5 " head tube and so you can run offset cups top and bottom of the headset. They should be able to get the angles within +/- 2 degrees. I assume that this is already what manufacturers interested in R&D actually do.

Just do it the Canyon way as on the new Sender. Rectangular cut out to be able to change reach and head angle.
Talking about the Sender:
Interestingly Fabien Barel rocked the sub 60° head angle way before anyone else did. And he was fast with it. The only reason he didn't went slacker was that the forks weren't working properly due to the shear loads caused by the slackness.

I had a good laugh when it was clear that he went faster on the Grim donut. So good! I am also hopng they try and make some development steps like a longer rear end and higher BB to get that thing even faster. Good stuff!

 

[toodles]

stuff

Basically downcountry is an XC bike for un-sponsored people that need a bike that can do more than Olympic XC courses.

Trail bikes are just heavier versions of the same stuff for people that think they need more travel

All Mountain i... I dunno - like Enduro Lite

Enduro is steadily more retarded looking and basically a DH bike from the early 2000s when tracks weren't designed to be freeways

FR/Park bike - what pretty much anyone who uses shuttles and chairlifts needs

Modern DH - basically exclusively designed for VDS, MSA and Vallnord. Anything less and you're basically an overbiked moron

 

[sethimus]

One point re: cool shocks: most of them are still too long to put on xc/downcountry bikes. The shortest they seem to go is about 210x50

ext storia sits alone and sad in a dark corner, rethinking its life choices

 

[HardtailHack]

The old definition of trail bike, sure.

But trail bikes these days come with coil shocks, Minions, and the HTAs from DH bikes 10 years ago. Which is good, but there is a special kind of fun to be had in being way undergunned for a trail and still coming out in one piece, which is where downcountry comes in.

That is called a hardtail, then get a dually with the same geo and you are golden.
If Swarf did this with a 65deg HA and a 140mm HT it would be all sorts of awesome!

 

[jonKranked]

ext storia sits alone and sad in a dark corner, rethinking its life choices

or perhaps blazing the path to the future.

 

[jonKranked]

I don't see many, if any, trailbikes coming with coil shocks, in fact, I still see way too many air shocks on stuff where it's not appropriate. Most people "just don't know", so I guess no one really cares enough and it's cheaper for all the manufacturers...it's just not appropriate for the type of riding the bikes are geared towards. I'm not talking about the light trail bikes, I'm talking about the enduro ones. A few come with coils...but not many.

trail bikes still come with air shocks - and will largely continue to come with air shocks - because you can cover the entire range of rider weights without having to swap out coils.

 

[sethimus]

or perhaps blazing the path to the future.

AVAILABLE LENGHTS / STROKE
IMPERIAL
190 / 51 mm
200 / 57 mm
216 / 63.5 mm
222 / 67 mm
METRIC STANDARD
210 / 50 mm
210 / 52.5 mm
210 / 55 mm
230 / 57.5mm
230 / 60 mm
230 / 62.5 mm
230 / 65 mm
250 / 67.5 mm
250 / 70 mm
250 / 72.5 mm
250 / 75 mm
METRIC TRUNNION
185 / 50 mm
185 / 52.5 mm
185 / 55 mm
205 / 57.5 mm
205 / 60 mm
205 / 62.5 mm
205 / 65 mm
225 / 67.5 mm
225 / 70 mm
225 / 72.5 mm
225 / 75 mm

 

[sethimus]

trail bikes still come with air shocks - and will largely continue to come with air shocks - because you can cover the entire range of rider weights without having to swap out coils.

Banshee Phantom 29 V3 Frame / black | bansheebikes

Lieferübersicht: Gr. M: sofort lieferbarGr. L: sofort lieferbarGr. XL: sofort lieferbar Das Banshee Phantom, der Vorreiter seiner Art.115mm Federweg, gepaart mit einer aggressiven Geometrie und 29" Laufrädern, getreu dem Motto "mehr Spass durch weniger Federweg".Von Magazinen als...

www.bansheebikes.net

also comes with the ext shock and 2 springs, your argument is invalid

 

[jonKranked]

Banshee Phantom 29 V3 Frame / black | bansheebikes

Lieferübersicht: Gr. M: sofort lieferbarGr. L: sofort lieferbarGr. XL: sofort lieferbar Das Banshee Phantom, der Vorreiter seiner Art.115mm Federweg, gepaart mit einer aggressiven Geometrie und 29" Laufrädern, getreu dem Motto "mehr Spass durch weniger Federweg".Von Magazinen als...

www.bansheebikes.net

also comes with the ext shock and 2 springs, your argument is invalid

call me when trek, specialized, or yeti do that.

 

[jonKranked]

Basically downcountry is an XC bike for un-sponsored people that need a bike that can do more than Olympic XC courses.

no. its really in between xc and trail. it definitely blurs the lines and has aspects of both.

 

[Andeh]

I'd say that they need to Grim Donut the downcountry category, but Transition already did that.

Chris Porter must have been giggling when he saw this video.

 

[slyfink]

sounds like you guys are discussing the Norco Optic...

my personal opinion on this category, is that these bikes allow you to ride faster and harder, with less travel. The problem (imo) arises when you get into technical shit. If you are anywhere near being a fast rider, your wheels and pivots will be taking all the abuse. which means more flats and mechanical failures. If you ride with anyone else, then those people will wind up waiting for you a whole lot. and that sucks.

My riding group went through this a while back. As they were all approaching their late 40s, they started to really focus on "being fast". Lightweight tires, low travel, diets, sports physologists, you name it, they did it. But then bikes were breaking all over the place. Now, they've all joined me on the 150+ travel, 1000g tire, enjoy a beer every day bandwagon. And we're all happier for it! Even if we don't nail strava segments on a consistent basis, we spend less time waiting around for people to fix flats....

 

[jonKranked]

sounds like you guys are discussing the Norco Optic...

my personal opinion on this category, is that these bikes allow you to ride faster and harder, with less travel. The problem (imo) arises when you get into technical shit. If you are anywhere near being a fast rider, your wheels and pivots will be taking all the abuse. which means more flats and mechanical failures. If you ride with anyone else, then those people will wind up waiting for you a whole lot. and that sucks.

My riding group went through this a while back. As they were all approaching their late 40s, they started to really focus on "being fast". Lightweight tires, low travel, diets, sports physologists, you name it, they did it. But then bikes were breaking all over the place. Now, they've all joined me on the 150+ travel, 1000g tire, enjoy a beer every day bandwagon. And we're all happier for it! Even if we don't nail strava segments on a consistent basis, we spend less time waiting around for people to fix flats....

that just sounds like your buddies are having mid life crises, and are finally experimenting with bike setups.

it also depends on your local trails. my local stuff is barely technical, so a lightweight 120mm bike is plenty.

 

[vinny4130]

Over forked xc bikes were downhill bikes, now they are downcounty, full circle achieved both turned out to be crummy dh bikes 30ish years later.
Trying to sell a showroom bike with a coil shock to a coil Luddite is next to impossible. And to add to it if someone see a coil the bike is “heavier and less efficient” lets be real the easiest quantifier for how “good” a bike Is IS weight any idiot can pick up test or put it on a scale. I can say that the marketing of downcounty has had the effect of allowing bikes with real weights and much better tires. I know some of you remember the paper thin sidewalls of the past. Yeti deserves a lot of shit but selling an xc bike with dhf takes some brass, we here may know good tires are faster and more fun but it used to be the lightest tire was the best tire.

 

[slyfink]

that just sounds like your buddies are having mid life crises

yes.

it also depends on your local trails. my local stuff is barely technical, so a lightweight 120mm bike is plenty.

agreed. that's why I said the problem arises with the combination of "technical shit" and fast rider.... which my buddies still are. for the time being.

 

[dump]

The old definition of trail bike, sure.

But trail bikes these days come with coil shocks, Minions, and the HTAs from DH bikes 10 years ago. Which is good, but there is a special kind of fun to be had in being way undergunned for a trail and still coming out in one piece, which is where downcountry comes in.

The continued micro-categorization of mountain bikes is absurd and non-productive. When regular folk ask me the difference between x & y, they all say pretty much say, "why... and... that seems unnecessary/unnecessarily complex." The most recent example was gravel – and the guy said, "can't you just ride that with a road bike... or a mountain bike?" There are only a handful of categories of mtb, but others clearly think changing from a 2.1 to 2.5 tire and unlocking the suspension makes it a new category. Carry on – let the navel gazing continue.

And mike levy has long been in the unwatchable category. This whole grim donut thing is a continuation of, "look at me! look at me!." Sarah Moore on the other hand has been a welcome addition.

 

[canadmos]

We all ride bikes on trails, therefor we all ride trail bikes?

 

[Kurt_80]

....down trials.

Yes plz,

 

[ianjenn]

I just can't imagine the amount of $$$$ wasted making, designing, advertising, etc. for 4-5 bikes that range in travel from 120-160mm and have just slight tweaks to angles and parts. I guess that why GG went the route they did with 1 main Triangle.

 

[jstuhlman]

We all ride bikes on trails, therefor we all ride trail bikes?

sometimes i explore and ride down random shit where there is no trail. maybe my bike then magically becomes its own special category . . . "off trail"? "backcountry"? "downwoods"?

 

[Gary]

Go as slack HA and low BB (within reason) as you want if your bike design is for going fast downhill but super steep seat angles that put your pelvis infront of your feet when pedalling seated are fucking horrible.

No matter what mtb geometry evolves into seems a fair punt to assume Levy will still look pretty terrible riding it.

 

[canadmos]

sometimes i explore and ride down random shit where there is no trail. maybe my bike then magically becomes its own special category . . . "off trail"? "backcountry"? "downwoods"?

FREERIDE AINT DEAD

 

[Nick]

FREERIDE AINT DEAD

+ rep

 

[Fool]

I have no idea what kind of bike I am riding at all. I've always referred to it as a trail bike but perhaps I am living a lie.

Trailbuilders love stacking logs across trails in stupid places around here, maybe I ride an Overlogger™

Anyway, this grim donut thing is a fun exercise I hope never sees the light of day. There's something very Top Gear/Grand Tour about the whole thing.

 

[djjohnr]

Pedal bikes come in three varieties to me:

1. I can pedal this thing all day, but DH will be sketchy AF
2. Jack of all trades, master of none
3. HIT ALL THE THINGS...once because I don't want to climb back up

 

[Bikael Molton]

This is the exact demographic of the average non-Canadian Pinkbike comments person.

my local stuff is barely technical, so a lightweight 120mm bike is plenty.

 

[jonKranked]

This is the exact demographic of the average non-Canadian Pinkbike comments person.

i had been riding my megatrail, but honestly it was overkill. trails around here are just mediocre at best. i gotta drive over an hour to get to anything decent.

 

[Bikael Molton]

I used to live In NY, so I feel ya.

My point is that a downcountry/ modern trail bike is probably the perfect tool for most of Pinkbike’s readers.
A non-piggy air shock probably won’t overheat when the ripping descent is 10 seconds / 150 vertical ft.

i had been riding my megatrail, but honestly it was overkill. trails around here are just mediocre at best. i gotta drive over an hour to get to anything decent.

 

[Westy]

Anyway, this grim donut thing is a fun exercise I hope never sees the light of day. There's something very Top Gear/Grand Tour about the whole thing.

I am sure a bunch of people are now going to be demanding such a bike. And if they get one will probably realize that it probably doesn't work so well outside of that fast rather straight trail.

 

[jonKranked]

I used to live In NY, so I feel ya.

My point is that a downcountry/ modern trail bike is probably the perfect tool for most of Pinkbike’s readers.
A non-piggy air shock probably won’t overheat when the ripping descent is 10 seconds / 150 vertical ft.

i have an original inline air that somehow *knocks on wood* hasn't exploded. swapped the SLX cranks on last night. my old e13s developed a creak that i just couldn't get rid of.

 

[dump]

sometimes i explore and ride down random shit where there is no trail. maybe my bike then magically becomes its own special category . . . "off trail"? "backcountry"? "downwoods"?

You joke, but it's coming. Remember freeride bikes?

 

[Vrock]

Thing is, XC race bikes are so damn rare, I mean the REAL ones intended to be raced XC, not the ones that are the lower level or less aggressive models. MOST of these bikes were already coming with 120mm forks and beefier tires than the full on high end XC race bike and MOST people were not buying the high end XC race bike to "ride on trails". I think that idea was just perpetuated by the companies like Yeti that wanted to sell more bikes.

IMO, downcountry is a sham. If they were making a DIFFERENT frame than their XC race bike, with an in-line coil shock, different geometry, wider tires and rims and other substantial differences, that would let it rip, sure, but when it comes with an XC air rear shock and it's the same frame as their "XC race" bike, it's obvious they are just blowing smoke up our ass. And then what does Yeti do? They turn around and make the SB115...based on the same main-frame...cuz I guess 100mm of XC air shock travel wasn't enough...I think the theory of a downcountry bike isn't bad, but it's not far removed from just putting a slightly longer fork on the XC bike and building it slightly different...and that was already happening. Now it just seems like a reason to charge someone a lot more for a bike that they'll probably realize doesn't have enough travel a few years later and then buy another bike...

Wow, I read something like this and I feel like I'm living in a different planet.

In Spain XC Bikes are the most popular by a huge margin: Orbea Oiz, Scott Spark, Cannondale Scalpel, Specialized Epic, Canyon Lux.... And if that is not enough then you have a ton of people riding carbon HTs, because they prefer to spend 70%-80% of their budget on their road bikes. Yep, here everyone has a road bike.

Trailbikes and "Downcountry" bikes don't make too much sense, you either ride XC or Enduro, and most Enduro riders are getting E-Bikes, so XC bikes are the only ones that make sense. Bikes like the Orbea Oiz TR, Epic Evo are not too bad. Long legged XC bikes offer a bit more confort but keep the weight low, so they still work OK.

 

[ianjenn]

The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 23 - Grim Donut 2 is Live! - Pinkbike

We chat about filming, what we expected to happen and what actually happened, and our EWS dreams with V2 of the Donut.

www.pinkbike.com

They talk to Yoann around the 53-minute mark. Doughnut talk starts around 39 minutes I think....

 

[slimshady]

and most Enduro riders are getting E-Bikes

You were assimilated by the Borg, Antonio...

All your batteries are belong to them now...

 

[ianjenn]

"Let's be honest the weight of the bike doesn't really matter".....

THE ENTIRE PB staff in the interview looks at each other fast and changes subject ASAP. ahahahahaha