[General Lee]

Here's a photo of my bike the way I used to have it specd with the rear end compressed fully. This is also the way the bike used to look when I landed on a tranny then reached the bottom and g-d out. Check out the forks...they look like a chopper! 9.5" of rear travel is too much to use in that type of situation but is exactly what running too little LSC caused. If the bike were to hit another sharp bump right then it would likely buck me or damage my rim as something has to give.

not to be rude, but what you have to do to your suspension to make that bike perform well is worlds apart from how one might set up say, a Sunday, a V10, or a DHR.

this thread makes me laugh. . . all this talk about damping and most people still can't get their spring rate correctoster_oops:

 

[SK6]

not to be rude, but what you have to do to your suspension to make that bike perform well is worlds apart from how one might set up say, a Sunday, a V10, or a DHR.

this thread makes me laugh. . . all this talk about damping and most people still can't get their spring rate correctoster_oops:

Amen!

 

[Avy Rider]

General Lee, you are correct in that the settings that are needed for my bike won't be the same as for a bike with a different suspension rate such as a rising rate Orange 223 etc. However, the theory behind it still applies and you want a bike to not squat too much under rider weight and slow speed movement but you DO want it to react quickly to absorb hard impacts.

If your particular frame has a rising rate suspension, it will already not use as much rear travel during low speed suspension movements. That might work against you though when you want the bike to absorb those high speed hits depending on where in the travel the rear end ramps up. You may have a hard time getting full travel out of your bike on some rising rate set ups which can cause a loss of traction if the bumps force overides the ability of your suspension to compress fast enough.

The optimal set up on those types of frames is a shock with with a lesser range of internal compression built into it as the frame is acting to slow the shaft speed with linkages. you still do want more LSC than HSC however which is the opposite of what many riders had thought.

 

[General Lee]

wrong. i want whatever feels the best for me.

please, just stop. glad you found the holy grail of suspension set up for yourself but enough essay writing about it to the rest of us.

 

[vitox]

but enough essay reading about it for me.

fixed!

 

[SK6]

I believe the issue has now turned to confusing for many, since there would appear to be numerous reiterations of the same thing, with blended strands of disagreement, henceforth the confusion, Nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, Muscle aches, Headache, Fatigue, Drowsiness or insomnia, along with Abnormal bleeding, Kidney damage, Liver damage, Muscle deterioration, Confusion and Anal seepage.

If any of these symptoms occur, please call a physician IMMEDIATELY, and attempt common sense...






Sorry, but it has become all a bit much....The great information and discussion has gotten lost in the essay. However, you did receive an 87 on your essay...Good show!

 

[Avy Rider]

Hey by all means stop reading this thread and set up your bike however you'd like. I posted this information as it is correct and there is a need for good suspension tuning info for those who wish to use it. You may not agree but I'm not about to hide under a rock because you don't like it. Start your own thread about how you think suspension should be set up then.

The information I posted comes from Craig Seekins of Avalanche Downhill Racing former owner of CCycle and who is one of the most experienced suspension tuning guys out there. 25 years of tuning suspension professionally vs your knowledge.

Hmmm... I'll stick with the pro's info,thanks.

 

[Kntr]

I turn up (2.5-3 turns) my hi speed compression so Im ready for drops and DJing and turn my lo speed down (3-4 clicks) for small bumps. Its worked for me and Ive ridden an Avy for awhile. I have found if I turn the hi speed down, the bike likes to buck on fast DJs because it uses to much travel. I have also found if I turn up the lo speed, it pedals better, but the plushness goes away.


You just have to find a happy medium, so the bike does everything you want it to.

 

[Avy Rider]

Kanter, I'm curious about what part of the dirt jumping you feel causes the high speed compression to come into play? I'm not saying it doesn't, just genuinely curious. I would think that dirt jumping would only require an increase in low and mid stroke compression to reduce the amount of travel you use up. Opening the high speed ports requires a sudden increase in the shocks shaft speed. Taking off and landing on a transition would not bring the high speed circuit into play.

Do you have the seperate hi/low adjuster on your Avy? If not Craig designed the DHS to increase the high speed compression at the same time that the low speed compression is turned in(stiffer).

Also are you sure that the bucking feeling isn't rebound related and not compression related? I noticed today that I felt a little bucking in my forks once I made the rebound a bit too fast. As soon as I slowed the rebound down a couple of clicks, it felt perfect.

Again, I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, I'm just wanting to know more about this stuff.

I also notice that you mentioned wanting less LSC for the "small bumps". Small bumps at what speed and are they rounded type bumps or more curb like and square edged? As I posted earlier in the thread, small bumps can make the shock react differently depending on the speed that you hit them at and what shape they are.

 

[Kntr]

I have my rebound set on 4-5 clicks, which is slow. I have turned it slower, but then it tends to clunk on fast small bumps. I run the hi/lo adjuster and have for all last season. The bike use to buck me and I went over the bars a couple times due to it. Once I turned the hi speed up to 2.5-3 turns it stopped.

The bike would use too much travel at the lip of the dirt jump and buck me over the bars.

I only notice the high speed, square edge clunk once in awhile now that I have the hi speed turned up. I finally got my Avy tuned at Whistler last year after adjusting it over and over again. Lots of tuning that week.

 

[Steve M]

so, in a nut shell:

you want, lots of LSC.

min HSC

and min rebound?

I don't think any settings should be "polarised" that much... it's pretty rare to want min or max of anything unless your adjusters just don't provide a big range, but yes roughly speaking that's something like what I have found works best. HSC should only be cranked up in my opinion if even with fast rebound, your fork is packing up too much in fast rough chunder (or bottoming on fast hits but it really shouldn't do that anyway). I like my fork rebound really fast (like nearly topping out fast) so it's not a big problem for me - I run F all HSC and quite a lot of LSC. Works better for me than any other setup I've tried... but honestly a lot of this stuff IS just placebo - people usually ride best on what they think/feel is the best setup for them even if in technical terms it's pretty bad. If you like the way your suspension is, don't go nuts trying to take other people's advice (mine included).

 

[dhkid]

yea, i should have worded that a bit different...

as much LSC as you can run with out getting a rough ride.

as little HSC you can use with out bottoming hard.

as rebound as fast as you are comfortable with, on my dhx its minumum, even with 7.5wt in it. on my 40 its about 5 clicks from fully open, its makes top out noises when you pull up.


i get what you mean when you should go with whatever works, but for me knowledge is power. and since most ppl are pretty serious about riding their bikes, there is no harm knowing more about how it works.

 

[Udi]

as much LSC as you can run with out getting a rough ride.

as little HSC you can use with out bottoming hard.

as rebound as fast as you are comfortable with

i get what you mean when you should go with whatever works, but for me knowledge is power. and since most ppl are pretty serious about riding their bikes, there is no harm knowing more about how it works.

Yep, like socket said, it's easy to overestimate how much difference this stuff can make to your times if you are changing over from a very different setup that you are already used to. But I think it's well worth trying - especially someone like you who seems open to new possibilities without the mindset of "i'm used to what I run so it must be right". Another thing you might want to keep in mind is that if you're running a lot of LSC being a lighter guy, make sure your springrate is light enough and you are still getting adequate sag.

On his advice some time ago, I tried running faster rebound, less hsc, and more lsc - and after finding a good balance, I haven't touched my settings (at all this year I think). I've been getting some good results lately, and while I wouldn't attribute it entirely to suspension setup, I think having it setup correctly has helped.

General Lee, you are correct in that the settings that are needed for my bike won't be the same as for a bike with a different suspension rate such as a rising rate Orange 223

Actually, Orange 223's (along with 222's and 224's) are very much falling rate, ie regressive.

 

[SK6]

Hey by all means stop reading this thread and set up your bike however you'd like. I posted this information as it is correct and there is a need for good suspension tuning info for those who wish to use it. You may not agree but I'm not about to hide under a rock because you don't like it. Start your own thread about how you think suspension should be set up then.

The information I posted comes from Craig Seekins of Avalanche Downhill Racing former owner of CCycle and who is one of the most experienced suspension tuning guys out there. 25 years of tuning suspension professionally vs your knowledge.

Hmmm... I'll stick with the pro's info,thanks.

Ahhh......you apparently are of the opinion that the "rest" of us who own an Avy have NEVER talked with Craig...You may want to sit down for this......BUT.......we have.......AND, furthermore, my knowledge is 20 years of mechanical engineering....so, in the attempt at a humorous jibe, you got your panties in a wad.....chill out man.....its all good...I did not attack you, nor say anything derogatory about the information...No one said the information sucked, or was not needed nor was it implied it wasn't appreciated...

The commentary is simple, your attempt to pass along great information has become a convolution of fact and opinion. Yes, the opinions and discussion are great, BUT, extracting and extrapolating the information has become a rather daunting task, because of the epic novel approach on the subject you choose to author.....

Relax, common sense is a factor as well, insomuch as the linkage of the particular bike, or geometry. Therefore, while what you have listed is a great guideline, it is not the definitive answer. Craig will even tell you that...Linkages have a great deal of involvement on how a shock reacts. Yes he is a pro and has done this for 25 years, don't for one second think that in a phone call, or even two, that the knowledge gained in 25 years was imparted to you in a couple of phone calls.

So, dude, have a beer, share the information and trim the fat from your posts, and the thread will mysteriously become helpful.....

And stop taking disagreeing points of view as personal attacks...


Have a nice day.

 

[Avy Rider]

wrong. i want whatever feels the best for me.

please, just stop. glad you found the holy grail of suspension set up for yourself but enough essay writing about it to the rest of us.

The above post is why I said I'm not about to stop posting on the subject because someone happens to disagree. Some of my posts have been shorter than the other folks who have contributed to this thread.

If I get a tad verbose at times it's to help further explain things not to hear myself talk. Not everyone has the same grasp on what we are discussing. Here are some basic guidelines then...

Running your settings wide open ie: no hi or low speed compression is not giving you enough control of your suspension.

Running either hi or low speed compression excessively is not much better.

Dialing in your low speed compression just right so that your particular bike doesn't wallow in its travel and remains responsive is good.

Dialing in just enough high speed compression so that you use full travel without harsh bottoming out on the hardest hits on the trail is good.

Setting up the proper rebound speed is crucial to whether or not the compression settings will be able to do what they should.

...The END!

 

[General Lee]

Running your settings wide open ie: no hi or low speed compression is not giving you enough control of your suspension.

really?. . . i do it all the time. for someone who seems to know so much surely you understand that not all suspension systems are valved identically and come with various amounts of hi/low compression built in from the start. stock valving is different on avy, marzocchi, rockshox, fox, etc. all will feel different with identical air pressure or spring rate. how one chooses to adjust the stock setting has to do with trail condition, speed, steepness of the track, riding style, balance, preferred spring rate. . . etc. etc.

take a hint. you've said your bit (over, and over, and over. . .) and made a contribution to the never ending dialouge of suspension tuning. high-five, elbows, head-butts to you. maybe even a pat on the ass.

time to stop repeating yourself. understand that some people prefer to have their bikes feel different from yours and they do in fact know what they are doing.

you spit out suspension theory as if it is simple fact, it's not. you are starting to sound like the college kid reciting what he learned in econ. 101 as if it he knows the way to end world povery and it is so simple and obvious. text book suspension tuning and real world application are not one in the same.

thank you for your contribution, but give it a rest.

 

[bizutch]

AND, furthermore, my knowledge is 20 years of microbrew ergonomics....)

fixed it.

 

[Avy Rider]

You can always stop reading this thread anytime you're bored with it. Those who find it interesting or feel they want to listen to what I have to say are also free to do so.

Suspension theory is not complicated at its basic level. Knowing what your adjusters are actually controlling in the real world vs what some people thought they were doing is good information to have.

Of course once you grasp the basics then you can fine tune and change settings to suit your riding abilities and the needs of the different courses.

Funnily enough some of the folks who are responding to this thread still don't even understand the difference between what causes high or low speed compression to come into play.

 

[beaverbiker]

thank you General Lee. Why the hell do some people think that everyone should setup their bike the same way. Should a big 290lb guy setup his suspension the same as a 130lb guy? NO. And just inreasing the spring rate won't help.

 

[beaverbiker]

And every shock is built differently, so saying that you should not ever run the high or low speed compression knobs all the way out is just plain garbage. what if your shock was valved differently to begin with to the point where all the way out on the external adjuster on that shock, is the same as somewhere in the middle on another shock.

 

[SK6]

fixed it.

Whew....thanks for gettin' my back! An obvious oversite on my part...

 

[SK6]

After this thread, I'm getting a Fox......

 

[bullcrew]

I run mine fully on, it gives me the hard tail feeling with the bruised A$$. Love it, I am thinking about getting my shims changed to a solid chunk of aluminum and getting rid of that pesky springy thing thats all coiled around my shock.
AVYS RULE! had to banter a little, felt left out. I figure if he can run the avy gauntlet of tech. then I can pipe up a little.
On the lighter side of the posts, I pulled my fox off hte other day and put my avy back on and again. I do this from time to time cause I can. But every time I put the Avy on and go rail stuff its like having a new and exciting bike again.
AVYS RULE! And as far as my settings go I dont know they change regularly Im too lazy to mark em and keep track. It rides great and if not I adjust it.

CRAIG RULES! Sorry had to get a shout out.

 

[bullcrew]

thank you General Lee. Why the hell do some people think that everyone should setup their bike the same way. Should a big 290lb guy setup his suspension the same as a 130lb guy? NO. And just inreasing the spring rate won't help.

YES! What the HE-- are you thinking, this is a comunist shock we all conform to the same and ride. SO SHUT UP AND RIDE!

 

[Avy Rider]

You guys kill me! I never stated that everyone should run their bikes set up the same way. The thread is about how to properly set up your high and low speed compression. As for the difference in set up for a heavy vs lighter weight rider, that has little to do with the topic of the thread.

Many heavy riders ride lightly and many lighter weight riders slam into things instead of using their arms and legs and body english.

I think that the whole point of the thread has been lost and that some of you think I'm preaching on how you should set up your own bikes. I'm only posting the basic facts of what those adjusters do and giving examples of when to add or reduce both high and low speed compression. I've posted that it's up to the rider to adjust them to his or her own bike as linkages and suspension rates do affect your settings.

Anyone can learn to ride fast while fighting their bike. It's more efficient on you and on your bikes parts to allow the suspension to work with you.

 

[jvnixon]

You guys kill me! I never stated that everyone should run their bikes set up the same way. The thread is about how to properly set up your high and low speed compression. As for the difference in set up for a heavy vs lighter weight rider, that has little to do with the topic of the thread.

Many heavy riders ride lightly and many lighter weight riders slam into things instead of using their arms and legs and body english.

I think that the whole point of the thread has been lost and that some of you think I'm preaching on how you should set up your own bikes. I'm only posting the basic facts of what those adjusters do and giving examples of when to add or reduce both high and low speed compression. I've posted that it's up to the rider to adjust them to his or her own bike as linkages and suspension rates do affect your settings.

Anyone can learn to ride fast while fighting their bike. It's more efficient on you and on your bikes parts to allow the suspension to work with you.

Yea but... you missed the point GeneralLee made.

There is no "perfect" setup, and some suspension designs factor some of the tuning so some of your points might not be valid for everyone.

While we're at it, how much PSI in tires are the proper amount?

 

[Avy Rider]

Regarding psi in your tires, it's all about maximizing traction while also minimizing rolling resistance. You need to adjust your psi to suit the terrain you will be riding. Common sense should apply. Softer tires offer more grip but suffer from more frequent pinch flatting and increase rolling resistance.

Harder compounds roll better but don't offer as much traction etc. I'm sure that most folks know what I meant by saying that correct tire pressure is important to the bikes overall handling. All I've been stating is that there are ways in which you are able to enhance the good qualities in suspension and reduce the ones that take away from speed and control.

It's not the gospel, just good info that can be applied or ignored as people see fit.

 

[JohnnyBoyDH]

By the way, how do your fantastic suspension setups help you WALK through rock gardens these days?

I'm late to this thread party but this had me killing myself....then I got bored after the 3rd page and got on with life.

 

[no skid marks]

In defence of what Avy rider is saying.
In regards to an Avalanche shock,that is meant to be custom tuned by Craig to suit the bike and rider it's intended for,then Avy Rider is totally correct in his statements of trying to inform people that low speed is not for small bumps and high speed for big bumps like large jumps and drops to trannys.But low speed is to control the bike from moving around under the riders weight and braking and genrally most smooth bumps,amounting to most of the shocks work,and high speed is for square edge hits that need more oil to be able to move,and high speed should be set up as a starting point to be able to flow easily unless you find yourself bottoming out to easily on square edge hits.
those arguing trivial points about bike set up on the moon with a shock built for riding a tandem with a hippo on the back should go find another pool to make waves in.
Avvy rider is just offering a clear starting point for those confussed about high and low,and yes the theory does apply to all shocks that have the correct weight spring,valving and oil,and as stated it is just a starting point to work from,not the final set up you should run.
By all means if your used to bronco ridding or like your gemetry to change rapidly when you slam into a corner,then yess lot's off low speed is not for you,but for most,as a starting point or even to try something different,then it's a good idea to get your low speed dialled first.

 

[bullcrew]

This is ridiculous now, everyone has their favorite this or that and it changes like the season. Avys work for most but not everyone, same with fox's and Marz. I love my DHX 5.0 but I love my Avy better, they are great shock with completely different ranges and feels. Despite the fact that I have to tune for a variety of courses I do that on the fox as well. I know how it feels and can usually run 1 down and dial it in from there.
Lets just face the facts here people, submit your soul to the AVY cult and life will get better!!!
Oh yeah and AVY'S RULE!
Well over 3 years now on em.

 

[Kntr]

How can you explain this.....

my Foes Fly use to buck me over the bars when hitting fast DJs. I turned up the high speed compression and now it doesnt buck me anymore. According to your explanation, I should have turned up the low speed.

 

[no skid marks]

Is the shock built for you and your bike?
Is the rebound set right?
Would appear that you've lessened the travel it's getting with damping instead of correcting the rebound.
How much pressure are you running(nitrogen or air)? this could be your problem.
Are you running to much preload?
Have you tried running more low speed instead of high?
If you really slam into the up ramp then it might blow into the high speed,your low speed should still help though. Have you set the low up to be real active for DH and your now expecting it to perform at DJs?
Like any relationship,compromise is the only soloution.
Please go experiment Kanter,would be interesting to see your results.

 

[Avy Rider]

How can you explain this.....

my Foes Fly use to buck me over the bars when hitting fast DJs. I turned up the high speed compression and now it doesnt buck me anymore. According to your explanation, I should have turned up the low speed.

Hi Kanter, I sent your question along to Craig and here is his response...

"Tough question, I am guessing he has too much preload and the spring is too soft for his weight. If the dirt jumps are steep and he is slamming into them then he will need more high speed compression."

Craig

I'd like to add that with an increase in low speed compression, your shock will have a lower shaft speed at the onset of hitting the transition of the jump and therefore may not then activate the high speed circuits.

Yesterday I took my 9.5" rear travel Fineline to the local skate park to test out my newly set up suspension with more LSC and minimal HSC so I could compare it to how I used to have it set with less LSC and lots of HSC.

When I first tried hitting some of the ramps with my old settings I could barely get the bike to make it over the small jump. The rear end would just squish right down and suck up any momentum I had.

Yesterday I hit the same jumps and the bike launched me up and over and I cleared the transition on the other side! It didn't buck me either, just kept my bike sitting higher and boosted me with speed. It was an eye opener as I have never ridden a full on dh set up that could ride like that before on jumps yet be so damn plush bombing trails.

 

[JohnnyBoyDH]

Testing DH race bike suspension settings at a skate park does not compute in my head.....

 

[Avy Rider]

I wasn't testing my suspension for DH, i was comparing it to how it felt before I made the changes. I have the bike set up for very fast rooty and rocky single track which is where I did my tuning. I just wanted to see how those settings would make the bike feel over jumps also. It pops incredibly off jumps now without bucking as well as it tracks through ridiculous rock gardens and root filled single track.

...Nice try though.

 

[General Lee]

wait, wait, stop . . . can you pleeeeease tell me again how you set the suspension for optimum performance on fast rooty and rocky sigletrack, skate park jumps, and ridiculous rock gardens based on your shock, your frame, your riding style and ability level, and your 24x3" rear wheel?

sorry, i missed it the first half-dozen times


in 100 words or less. ready, go!

 

[Avy Rider]

wait, wait, stop . . . can you pleeeeease tell me again how you set the suspension for optimum performance on fast rooty and rocky sigletrack, skate park jumps, and ridiculous rock gardens based on your shock, your frame, your riding style and ability level, and your 24x3" rear wheel?

sorry, i missed it the first half-dozen times


in 100 words or less. ready, go!

I run dual 26" wheels with 2.35 Ritchey Z-Max tires.
Here's a suggestion for you guys who are tired of this thread...move on with your lives and stop reading this thread. No ones telling you to read it. You do it so you can post some stupid assed comments and then wait to see what I'll post in return.

Well done! You must be busting with excitement.
Believe it or not some people have appreciated the examples I've given and have thanked me for them. Those of you who apparently know everything already don't need to waste your time responding.

 

[zedro]

wait, wait, stop . . . can you pleeeeease tell me again how you set the suspension for optimum performance on fast rooty and rocky sigletrack, skate park jumps, and ridiculous rock gardens...

you mean someone discovered the one-size fits all fat pants of suspension? does it come with push-button tuning ajustorz?

 

[General Lee]

you mean someone discovered the one-size fits all fat pants of suspension? does it come with push-button tuning ajustorz?

yes, but you have to run the BS circuit fully open

 

[tmx]

...
Here's a suggestion for you guys who are tired of this thread...move on with your lives and stop reading this thread. No ones telling you to read it. You do it so you can post some stupid assed comments and then wait to see what I'll post in return.

Well done! You must be busting with excitement.
Believe it or not some people have appreciated the examples I've given and have thanked me for them. Those of you who apparently know everything already don't need to waste your time responding.

Bravo! It won't stop them for doing so, nor will it stop them from posting their opposition to useless posts in threads that matter to them (..even though their "useless post" posts are as useless as the useless post their complaining about..LOL) ...but cheers to you for putting it out there.