[offtheedge]

Look at the size of that thing, it may as well be a 50cc motor.

I'm sure it works, but nowhere close to a planetary gear system.

Rohloff showed everyone how its done, lets just quit trying to be original and steal ideas that work.

 

[OGRipper]

Look at the size of that thing, it may as well be a 50cc motor.

I'm sure it works, but nowhere close to a planetary gear system.

Rohloff showed everyone how its done, lets just quit trying to be original and steal ideas that work.

Hmmm. Rohloff is heavy, expensive, complicated, and inefficient as a transmission. Is that really how it should be done? I think it's pretty cool but not the solution.

 

[zedro]

Look at the size of that thing, it may as well be a 50cc motor.

I'm sure it works, but nowhere close to a planetary gear system.

Rohloff showed everyone how its done, lets just quit trying to be original and steal ideas that work.

yeah, f*** innovation

 

[offtheedge]

Hmmm. Rohloff is heavy, expensive, complicated, and inefficient as a transmission. Is that really how it should be done? I think it's pretty cool but not the solution.

I bet it's weight compared to any gearbox out is lighter.

How do you call something complicated that needs little to no maintanence? I'd say never having to work/adjust it makes it the most uncomplicated part on your bike.

inefficient......compared to what?

The price is the only thing that has kept their system from finding it's way into more bike lines. Well that and a 135 spacing and no room for a bigger bolt on axle.

 

[AR_]

yeah, f*** innovation

That's the spirit!

 

[offtheedge]

yeah, f*** innovation

Yeah sticking all the stuff from the back up in the front into an aluminum box is on the forefront of innovation......

I think it's cool and at least it shows the industries interest in moving forward, but mechanicaly deflecting a chain across a cog set is, has been and always will be problematic.

In eliminating the problem of ripping off derailleures you now have a huge box that requires a totall re-design of bike frames.

 

[xy9ine]

^what he said^

 

[trialsmasta]

I just searched the msg board and couldn't find anything negative about Ellsworth. Where are y'all getting this from? Those of us not in the know would like to know.

 

[zedro]

Yeah sticking all the stuff from the back up in the front into an aluminum box is on the forefront of innovation......

I think it's cool and at least it shows the industries interest in moving forward, but mechanicaly deflecting a chain across a cog set is, has been and always will be problematic.

In eliminating the problem of ripping off derailleures you now have a huge box that requires a totall re-design of bike frames.

hmmm lets see......

the G-Boxx Rohloff desigh sticks "all the stuff from the back up in the front into an aluminum box" and requires "a huge box that requires a totall re-design of bike frames".....or wait, were you thinking of sticking that boat anchor as the rear hub giving the oh-so great high unsprung weight, a concept that has been available for years now but no one wants to touch?

the problem of using the Rohloff has not been spacing or just price, but also weight and zero user-maintainability, not to mention the direct stressing of a very expensive piece of equipment . Well these cog systems may just solve all these issues that have been impeding the use of this long time available technology. I'd take the G-Boxx Rohloff (or any frame mount arragement) over the rear hub anyday anyways. I dont think you quite understand the problems that are trying to be solved here.....ever see any vehicle with the gearbox mounted directly on the wheel? they're on the chassis for a reason

PS...yeah, doing something different like "sticking all the stuff from the back up in the front into an aluminum box" is the forefront of innovation, not using a rear geared hub whose concept has been around for over 50 years....

 

[zedro]

I just searched the msg board and couldn't find anything negative about Ellsworth. Where are y'all getting this from? Those of us not in the know would like to know.

because they are all deleted....theres been some real nuclear wars over there with Tony getting personnally involved. Ellsworth advertises on mtbr, so lots of filtering when things get out of hand.

 

[atrokz]

lots of assumption there, and i dont feel ....

:dancing:

the type of mechanism it uses (a linear slider vs the 4bar linkages of deraillers) will have any of those problems. .

Realy? A deraliuer shifting a chain across a series of thin gears is not suspect to misalignment? 1mm off makes a big difference, and while it's more advantageous than a standard system it's still subject to limits being worn or as you said, indexing problems. Who knows though, I have absolutely no knowledge of the subject :]

In fact the generic type of wear you talk of could be "assumed" in a planetary style system too, that is not exempt from wear.

Not even close. A hardened gear as found in a planetary gear system will last far longer than a standard chain and cog set up and even with the minimal wear, the system by nature of design is not thrown off. In fact, we all know of the empericaly proven long term durability of these systems and their use in aplications stretches past the bicycle (try CNC machines, NASA telescopes, Excavators, and many others). On the other hand, I cannot get more than two seasons out of a conventional cogset and chain of any quality.

The key i believe will be in how well the system is indexed, but the problem is much simpler than a derailler system (look at the pics). The big difference is it wont be jarred around but rather be self-contained and properly constrained. I wouldnt be surprised if cog/chain systems become the IT standard

I agree with you there, but not for reasons of performance but rather cost/production issues and the view of the public as it is generaly a simpler system.

btw i started playing around with these designs in the concept phase before the Petespeed was revealed so i am a bit biased

Well that explains it! . BTW, I'd be biased too seeing as my Engineering design teacher loves the planetary system.



With all that said, it's going to be very interesting to see what develops, and regardless of opinion the truth about it will show with time. Me, I'm looking to new materials and processes to lighten what we know alread works and works well. A 1lb planetary system thats much simpler than what we see now is not a pipe dream. Oh, and I for one can take one appart no problem

Cheers, and keep that mind working!
a

 

[zedro]

A deraliuer shifting a chain across a series of thin gears is not suspect to misalignment? 1mm off makes a big difference, and while it's more advantageous than a standard system it's still suspect to limits being worn or as you said, indexing problems.

considering how well normal derailler systems works under harsh conditions, a perfectly sealed unit should be as accurate as anything. Remember, a linear system would have a 1:1 indexing, and with a shift of around 5mm, it wont be hard to get the indexing spot on. Remember, the chain isnt bending at all, and the system is being 'hard shifted' like a planetary style.

Not even close. A hardened gear as found in a planetary gear system will last far longer than a standard chain and cog set up and even with the minimal wear, the system by nature of design is not thrown off.

i was more thinking about shifting parts and such. But regardless upto now, only one manufacturer has been successful in bringing an extream use hub to market, all the others implode. This may change with Shimanos new offering, but this shows how critical the design really is. Cog systems are very simple, and all you have to do here is shift the sproket and idlers each index (not bend the chain like deraillers), nothing could be simpler. However, the quality of the cogs may be more critical than before for smooth shifting with such a compact geometry, and there may need to be some primary gearing to get fast enough shifting.

 

[Kornphlake]

Was there a database glitch or was my comment about Ellisworth's yuppie following censored?

 

[Rik]

Me, I'm looking to new materials and processes to lighten what we know alread works and works well. A 1lb planetary system thats much simpler than what we see now is not a pipe dream.

You're going to pay for it as well?
What you say has some validity, but have you not realised that mountainbikes (and everything, really) have an amount of compromise involved.
It could be cost, weight, efficiency, durabilty, or anything else... and until you build your fancypants lightweight planetry gearbox for an affordable price, I think most people would be happy to accept a "lesser" system that has a realisitic pricetag.

 

[patineto]

It could be cost, weight, efficiency, durabilty, or anything else... and until you build your fancypants lightweight planetry gearbox for an affordable price, I think most people would be happy to accept a "lesser" system that has a realisitic pricetag.

Rik how many people do you know that drive a FORMULA ONE Car, In fact how many people do you know that ever touch one....?
R&D cost Time, money and many wasted Neurons.
this companies don't make the Stuff so the average joe can or can-not afford it, they make it the way is soppose to be done so it works, with time a better understanding of the Ingeniering requirements and the possible shortcuts will come plus more eficient and mass production methods and then the price will come down.

like any other thing,, computers, I-pods, Digital watches ( they used to cost $2000/$3000.... today you get one free with a pair of Bluejeans),whatever if you want It NOW is going to cost you , if you want it tomorrow maybe will cost you less and even better you get a more evolve product, Just remenber the early gripshift in 1997 that came On Triathon Cannondales (at the top of aerobars),,,man what a freaking Joke,, almost 20 years later GripShift is at the top of the game.

 

[bomberboy11]

Is the BB on that thing mounted into plastic???

Strikes against it:
1 - It's an Ellsworth
2 - It's a monocoque
3 - It's a monocoque made by Ellsworth
4 - It looks like a bag of ass with that paint
5 - BB is supported by a large plastic face...not too bright unless that's only cosmetic and it is mounted to actual frame material underneath
6 - Ellsworth surrendered their only redeeming engineering feature (the ICT thing) for a single pivot




So where's the upside to this bike besides it having that gearbox??

 

[Downhiller]

can somebody put pics of that ellsworth because i dont see any pics...

thx

ps. is this true:

""Bender, who was seen riding an Ellsworth - is eyeing up a 100 foot vertical drop. "You heard me" was his reply when we said "Pardon?". No gap though - straight down to a steep a*s tranny. A larger version of the Jah Drop near Kamloops"

with ellsworth-that is crazy, maybe with karpiel but ellsworth.. :nuts:

 

[atrokz]

until you build your fancypants lightweight planetry gearbox for an affordable price, I think most people would be happy to accept a "lesser" system that has a realisitic pricetag.

It's ideal not to patronize someone you:

a: dont know
b: are trying to communicate with


That said, I'm partially involved (not directly, but I have a front row seat) with some stellar new advances in materials technology that will change the way things are made, their qualities, and eventually their cost (in the next 10 years, these should make to everyday items). Granted, most can be skeptical with things like this, but its fact and as was also said in response to you, cost comes down on everything. It's the same for this. While it may cost more initially, I wouldn't doubt it to end up at the same rate as an XTR or Campy shifting group which is fair for what it does in return. It will have its inherent problems (you do realize though, that everything in existence has its problems) but I see it more to do with initial costs and public speculation than performance and reliability. Who knows though, I dont claim to be a prophet for our industry

 

[OGRipper]

How do you call something complicated that needs little to no maintanence? I'd say never having to work/adjust it makes it the most uncomplicated part on your bike.

inefficient......compared to what?

um maintenance is different - if you've ever seen inside a rohloff you know it's complicated. I used to overhaul sturmey three speeds and I wouldn't want to get inside a rohloff unless I didn't have to get it back together!

And there is little question that a planetary gear system has more friction and less efficient power transfer. The only evidence to the contrary comes from Rohloff.

 

[xy9ine]

given a suitably reliable transmission, and a reasonable service network, consumer servicability becomes less of an issue. i certainly don't worry about not being able to rebuild my honda's tranny myself. the current rohloff is not THE solution, but its a decent product, and (i think) an evolutionary step in the right direction. i've got a buddy who's on his 4th year on the same rohloff (on a fr bike) without a mechanical (just regular oil changes). thats impressive. i've ridden his bike a couple times; it works fantastic, and i find the "inneficiancy" to be negligable. my main complaint (with the wheel mounted rohloff) is the weight. the ability for universal application makes the hub-based tranny appealling, though. i imagine if someone were to build a reliable / durable 8spd hub in a weight comperable to cogs & derailleur, this would become a favored gearbox alternative. building frames around proprietary/rapidly evolving gearbox systems is a bit scary. much easier buying a new hub than trying to source some esoteric cogbox parts that the manufacturer has discontinued a couple years later.

whatever happens, its fun to watch the development. wonder where we'll be in 5 years?

 

[atrokz]

The only evidence to the contrary comes from Rohloff.

Every planetary system test I've come across goes by those numbers or close(read up if you like). Maybe subtract a few for seals and other devices but it's still sitting in the 90 range. Even so, the Pete speed system is still susceptible to more power loss than a conventional system as well so the point could be considered moot.

 

[ChrisRobin]

imagine if someone were to build a reliable / durable 8spd hub in a weight comperable to cogs & derailleur, this would become a favored gearbox alternative. building frames around proprietary/rapidly evolving gearbox systems is a bit scary. much easier buying a new hub than trying to source some esoteric cogbox parts that the manufacturer has discontinued a couple years later.

whatever happens, its fun to watch the development. wonder where we'll be in 5 years?

See, before the g-boxx's and derailleurs in a box become standard (say in a few years), a company like Rohloff could jump right in now, slim down their Speedhub, reduce the amount of gears and make a DH/FR friendly gear hub. They have the most experience when it comes to gear hubs that can be abused. I know Rohloff is a one or two man operation which might explain why they haven't done this yet but I could see it being a worthy alternative to a full gear boxed bike. I think people would go for it.

 

[OGRipper]

I'm not arguing that the Rohloff is not a good product. With a diet, some refinement in performance, and more flexibility in shifting and mounting options I would rock one. I was just responding to the poster who said Rohloff showed how it should be done and suggested that nobody should try anything else. That seems pretty closed-minded.

But I totally agree that it's an exciting area of development and that it's going to be pretty cool to watch what happens.

 

[ChrisRobin]

because they are all deleted....theres been some real nuclear wars over there with Tony getting personnally involved. Ellsworth advertises on mtbr, so lots of filtering when things get out of hand.

Wow, I wonder what it's like to turn on your computer, go to mtbr or ridemonkey and see people bashing the frames you build. He must have been somewhat upset.

 

[LOOnatic]

See, before the g-boxx's and derailleurs in a box become standard (say in a few years), a company like Rohloff could jump right in now, slim down their Speedhub, reduce the amount of gears and make a DH/FR friendly gear hub. They have the most experience when it comes to gear hubs that can be abused. I know Rohloff is a one or two man operation which might explain why they haven't done this yet but I could see it being a worthy alternative to a full gear boxed bike. I think people would go for it.

Yeah i hear ya and i think Super-T ran a Rohloff on a VP-free for a while but i don't know how well it worked out...
I've been crashing alot lately and mangling brand new deral'rs so i'm pretty keen on another option........and less crashing

 

[xy9ine]

Yeah i hear ya and i think Super-T ran a Rohloff on a VP-free for a while but i don't know how well it worked out...

he's been on rohloff for a while now; on his v10 & vpfree with santa cruz, & now on his yeti asx. he loves em.

 

[atrokz]

I'm not arguing that the Rohloff is not a good product. With a diet, some refinement in performance, and more flexibility in shifting and mounting options I would rock one. I was just responding to the poster who said Rohloff showed how it should be done and suggested that nobody should try anything else. That seems pretty closed-minded.

But I totally agree that it's an exciting area of development and that it's going to be pretty cool to watch what happens.

I agree totaly. We'll see where this ends up soon enough

 

[zedro]

Wow, I wonder what it's like to turn on your computer, go to mtbr or ridemonkey and see people bashing the frames you build. He must have been somewhat upset.

heh, no censoring there.....well exept for the ugly one i started and ended

 

[trialsmasta]

Is the BB on that thing mounted into plastic???

Strikes against it:
1 - It's an Ellsworth
2 - It's a monocoque
3 - It's a monocoque made by Ellsworth
4 - It looks like a bag of ass with that paint
5 - BB is supported by a large plastic face...not too bright unless that's only cosmetic and it is mounted to actual frame material underneath
6 - Ellsworth surrendered their only redeeming engineering feature (the ICT thing) for a single pivot




So where's the upside to this bike besides it having that gearbox??

1)Once again, whats so bad about Ellsworth? I havn't heard anything bad about them until this post. I guess I've been under a rock

2) Whats on earth is wrong with a monocoque design???

3) I havn't studied the design but whats wrong with plastic? If it said E13 on it you know y'all would be loving it.

4) Why would you need ICT if you can change the location of your drive?

 

[Thrillkil]

If rohloff made a simplified version of the speedhub, with fewer speeds or something for about $500, I'd pick one up in a heartbeat

 

[Alejandro24]

Estructuraly speaking Monocoque design is, perhaps, the strongest design for a MTB frame with a strengt FAR superior than the classic tube frame; By the way... i don´t know whats the problem with that..

 

[sixsixtysix]

I just spoke with a guy at my LBS who just got back from interbike last night. They are also a Ellsworth dealer (for now but thats another story). He spoke with the Ellsworth guys at length and they are 100% absolutely not going to produce that bike, no chance, never. There is no Dare for 06, it has been replaced with the Rouge.

 

[Kntr]

I just spoke with a guy at my LBS who just got back from interbike last night. They are also a Ellsworth dealer (for now but thats another story). He spoke with the Ellsworth guys at length and they are 100% absolutely not going to produce that bike, no chance, never. There is no Dare for 06, it has been replaced with the Rouge.

If that bike would be reasonably priced, Ellsworth might sell quite a few. Its funny to hear they will NEVER make that bike.

 

[sixsixtysix]

I guess they basically used Nicolai as a reason of why that bike will never be made, they said they cost far too much money, and said since Nicolai only sold 10-50 G-Boxx frames a year and there was no reason or demand to produce them. Ellsworth has become a crap company lately and from what I hear they were the only company talking trash about other companies products at interbike. The guy at my LBS said they were total dicks at the demo days, which is why they are questioning ditching them from the stores line of brands.

 

[Kntr]

I bet they would sell if they were in the $3000-$4000 range.

 

[sixsixtysix]

Yeah, but a G-boxx Nicolai frame is almost $6000 alone.

 

[zedro]

Yeah, but a G-boxx Nicolai frame is almost $6000 alone.

hence the use of internal cogset systems. The price would be a bit higher, but offset by no derailler, casette and rear hub included.

 

[sixsixtysix]

Ok, well lets say they did release this frame at $3500, given Ellsworth's recent reputation of shady quality control and warrenty issues, would you put your cash down for one?

 

[vitox]

Estructuraly speaking Monocoque design is, perhaps, the strongest design for a MTB frame with a strengt FAR superior than the classic tube frame; By the way... i don´t know whats the problem with that..

problem is that normally the complexities involved in using such a superior production method, overwhelm the bike companies that use said method and the result a frame NOT stronger/ligther and of course not cheaper than a tubed bicycle frame.

 

[offtheedge]

It sucks to hear about anyone in the industry being rude or slanderous (publicly)......especially to make "their ideas" sound better...........fast forward.

Maybe:
Tony Ellsworth is an a hole
His company warranty sucks
The customer service blows

I said maybe.....what I do know is:

The fit and finish are top notch...anodized
It pedals incredible!
the geo is so natural and aggressive it's hard to believe the TT is shorter than any other frame I have had. Extremely low stand over.
corners amazing
stiff, stiff, stiff
823, wire bead? get out the steel
...and I have to say the 40 is the first fork I've gotten that needed NO upgrades. No heavier spring, no thicker oil.....just tune and ride.

No shuttle yet, but it will be too long until then.


Please, all the anti-ellsworthians do me a favor and save the "you could have bought allot of other frames" comments because I have read every thread, review and blog about the frame and obviously that’s the frame that I bought so if:

Tony Ellsworth is an a hole
His company warranty sucks
the customer service blows

.......at least I'll know for myself

Oh and any thread or responses that get yanked because the content isn't agreed with ....sucks. So much for a open forum.