Amazing nobody has mentioned the fact that there ins't a single Honda sticker of logo on it anywhere.
It has to do with research and development and I actually think Honda see somekind of future in DH racing.la_cleta said:Why does a company like honda doing all this MTB thing...
They're trying to sell more dirt bikes to mountain bikers
They're testing a new wallmart bike...
That's not going to fix the fact that you said "horse link" after all of your arguing in this thread.no skid marks said:It's not a Honda,It's made by Honda for him under his own name.
Flog the dead "Horse"for as long as you can. Typo relavant to suspension?
no skid marks said:I stated all that(accept the backward ejection),I said the pivots take and transfer energy. Picture that bike if you pushed down on the seat (compressed the shock)and then let go. Yes every bike will have a similar effect but I believe this bike more so.I've felt the effects I speek of not just thought them up.
Okay I'm going until somebody satisfies my curriosity and explains it better than I have.
Please read all my posts before having a crack at my theory.
I do not believe this is that big a deal of a design flaw but it is old tachnoligy and the things I'm saying do exist. I'm only arguing so strongly in defence to my statement to justify it, not because I think Honda have made the biggest mistake in the world. For 4x it's probably fine,I just think it's primitive but I guess after nutting it out to prove my point that simple is all they need for the aplication it's for.
its miror retard - like the have the stools to hold up a dirt bike - they have a stand for a mtb and its just fancy and has a shiny plate on itluelling said:Why is the picture photoshopped? The crank is missing in the lower frame and there appears to be a pedal forming from no where.
no skid marks said:There's a lot of variables I believe. Shock angle,location,set up,pivot location,shock ramping,dampening,and so on. I don't think the horse link design suffers as much due to shock angle amount of pivots(that absorb and transfer energy in ?dirrection)and possibly rear axle path in relation to every thing including wheel contact and bike movement(no I've not put my mind to this much as it has so many variables and they can all go to **** depending on rider and track).There's also whatever area the designer wants to put the compromise they've had to make etc to get whatever goal they've set out to achieve.The shock has to release the energy to the frame/swing arm and whatever has the least resistance at the time would move the most(not conscidering pivot energy or gyroscopic forces etc).
It is a Honda. Honda is designing the bikes and funding a race program. They aren't making the bike just for Minnaar. They have a few japanese riders and Matti Lehikonen riding for them as well. And There are also rumors floating around of Honda giving plans to a company in taiwan to start mass producing the frames. The bike IS a Honda.no skid marks said:It's not a Honda,It's made by Honda for him under his own name.
Flog the dead "Horse"for as long as you can. Typo relavant to suspension?
But there is a G-cross sticker...dropmachine.com said:Amazing nobody has mentioned the fact that there ins't a single Honda sticker of logo on it anywhere.
No, you're simply wrong. I already explained why - the forces transmitted through the pivot(s) vary according to the shock's location, and they ALWAYS BALANCE OUT so that the net force on the front triangle (and thus the rider) is THE SAME. The only thing that will change this is shock rate or axle path, neither of which have anything specifically to do with the orientation of the shock. If you believe you've felt this, it's because of a bike with poor rebound damping (or is oversprung). It's COINCIDENTAL that it happened to be on a bike with a vertically mounted shock.Picture an open pair of scissors,put a spring between the blades,close scissors then let go,if they were on a flat bench they would jump or at least catapault anything light that was on top of them.Dirrect result of path of least resistance. If you ad levers and stuff you could dirrect alot of that force in annother dirrection could you not(variables like load and ressistance provided by blah and blah)?
Okay picture a (not sure what you'd call it but a boxing glove on the end of one of those kids toys,you pull the trigger it extends and punches forward). It starts off at one end the same as a pair of scissors but by then adding the opposite mirror linkage as the scissors to it,it then moves forward instead of up.Yes far from relative but it's the first example I could think of to do with redirecting energy.LOL. :evil:
Thats the downhill bike you speak of,the 4X bike I believe was just built to Minnars design specs for him to race and possibly market to sell. Yes it's built by Honda so in effect a Honda but not badged by them so it's like car manufacturer A making car for manufacturuer B,Is the car an A or a B if it's badged and sold as a B? Don't answer that as it will start another unanswerable **** fight.bballe336 said:It is a Honda. Honda is designing the bikes and funding a race program. They aren't making the bike just for Minnaar. They have a few japanese riders and Matti Lehikonen riding for them as well. And There are also rumors floating around of Honda giving plans to a company in taiwan to start mass producing the frames. The bike IS a Honda..
Like you said, levers can redirect the direction of the shock, but the end result is still the same forces being input from the wheel. The pivot location will make for the "pogo" feel you mention regaurdless of how the shock is situated.no skid marks said:Picture an open pair of scissors,put a spring between the blades,close scissors then let go,if they were on a flat bench they would jump or at least catapault anything light that was on top of them.Dirrect result of path of least resistance. If you ad levers and stuff you could dirrect alot of that force in annother dirrection could you not(variables like load and ressistance provided by blah and blah)?
Okay picture a (not sure what you'd call it but a boxing glove on the end of one of those kids toys,you pull the trigger it extends and punches forward). It starts off at one end the same as a pair of scissors but by then adding the opposite mirror linkage as the scissors to it,it then moves forward instead of up.Yes far from relative but it's the first example I could think of to do with redirecting energy.LOL. :evil:
You are making my head hurt....go away. You are over complicating this matter far too much. Pick up a Statics book and read the first few chapters, hang your head in shame, then come back here and discuss.no skid marks said:I'm having trouble getting my head around your theory in full(i've already mentioned I agree pivots disperse energy)The shock angle or where the non moving end is aimed would have to have some effect if it is the path of least resistance,E.G an Orange with rider sitting (Heavy guy)on seat,bottoms out,on rebound stroke the shocks energy pushes the bike forward as well as pivot sending energy wherever and rear wheel doing it's thing and seatt trying to penetrate fat dude etc. Yes,No?
Dude, totally false analogy. ANY bike with no rebound damping will kick a rider up, TOTALLY REGARDLESS of where the shock is mounted. All the shock does is balance the moment about the pivot that the axle generates. Balancing forces in the X (horizontal) and Y (vertical) after you balance that moment, will give different forces at the pivot and the shock mount, but these will balance out relative to the front triangle/CoM overall. Always. The net result (in terms of direction) of the forces will be THE SAME as if the whole bike was a rigid structure and you applied the force at the axle. It's not rocket science dude, stop trying to complicate stuff so much.no skid marks said:Picture an open pair of scissors,put a spring between the blades,close scissors then let go,if they were on a flat bench they would jump or at least catapault anything light that was on top of them.Dirrect result of path of least resistance. If you ad levers and stuff you could dirrect alot of that force in annother dirrection could you not(variables like load and ressistance provided by blah and blah)?
Okay picture a (not sure what you'd call it but a boxing glove on the end of one of those kids toys,you pull the trigger it extends and punches forward). It starts off at one end the same as a pair of scissors but by then adding the opposite mirror linkage as the scissors to it,it then moves forward instead of up.Yes far from relative but it's the first example I could think of to do with redirecting energy.LOL. :evil:
No, there's not "many factors". You're just wrong, because this is pretty basic stuff. Stop blaming everyone else for "shooting you down", because they're simply correcting a totally flawed idea you've come up with to explain a phenomenon you've experienced on some bikes which HAPPEN to have a vertical shock orientation. Read up on some basic statics theory, as others have said. "Path of least resistance occurs for stuff like ELECTRICITY - suspension is purely Newtonian physics", and at no time does rocket science enter into this. Any shock extending will push a bike/rider mass upwards, that's the whole point of it, and it's NOTHING TO DO with where the shock is oriented. Do some free body diagrams of a swingarm setup with a point force (vertical) at the axle, the shock moment balancing it, and the resultant forces on the pivot. Do them with two different shock locations and assume that the whole front triangle pivots around the FRONT axle (as though the fork is not compressing/extending) when the rear end moves. Then you will see why the shock orientation doesn't matter.no skid marks said:**** I just made a small ****ing statement,some big mouths tried to shoot me down and I was left to justify and explain it. There's many factors that will overide what I'm saying,but the affect is there non the less. It is very ****ing complex otherwise we would have less variety in design. Everyones looking for the best compromise wich leads to minor flaws like the one I've addressed here. Good attemt but still don't cut it for me.There will always be a path of least resistance for the shocks rebounding energy and I believe this design to offer an oportunity(if unweighted for example)to replicate the exact force it is meant to nullify(the rears upward movement from a bump) but in a smaller and distorted scale.
I'm sick of hearing my own voice,carry on, Bahh bahh.
I will conform now,does this square suit me.
Sitting next to my desk.ragin-sagin said:It does look like they stole the swing arm off a '91 San Andreas...but where is the sweet multicolor elastomer "shock"?
that fact is it won't, you are imagining things. the rebound in a sprung system depends on the springing portion and has piss all to do with the geometry of the setup.:teacher:no skid marks said:Can't you think for yourself. I made the Brooklyn point myself ya fuktard. Read all of my posts I'm not going to rewrite it all for a twit like you to understand. I may be wrong(I don't think so)but not one of you obvious smart arses has made any statement to prove me wrong.
If the rider for any reason gets his/her weight of the top of that bike(above shock)normally when unsetled(worse time)it will buck the back up on rebound or push the back wheel out(helping to break traction)when leaned over. With such a dirrect approach no energy is transfered to pivots or anywhere else.
Oh **** I'm over this,go find another bit of bread to squable over you pigions you.
Which is why we should get DW to clear this all up since I'm sure he's done just that before.Superdeft said::nonono:
All of the inputs and interactions going on on even a simple single-pivot system are FAR too complex to be discussed (let alone evaluated) when we're limited to text/an internet forum. It's laughable that anyone is trying to assert anything at this point.
One way to do it is to sit down with some proper software and draw it up, make some meaningful plots of what's going on, and discuss what those plots might mean provided the parties involved know their stuff. That said, the majority of posters here and I need to accept that we don't know our stuff and can't do much more than babble about this sort of thing.
Someone with a masters in mech engineering --> :teacher: <-- RM users.
Tame Ape said:Swing-arms are different...
Nah dude, it's really not that complicated at all. Textual explanations are a bit harder to comprehend, but basic FBDs (which I cbf drawing up since it takes a fair while) will explain all this very simply.Superdeft said::nonono:
All of the inputs and interactions going on on even a simple single-pivot system are FAR too complex to be discussed (let alone evaluated) when we're limited to text/an internet forum. It's laughable that anyone is trying to assert anything at this point.
One way to do it is to sit down with some proper software and draw it up, make some meaningful plots of what's going on, and discuss what those plots might mean provided the parties involved know their stuff. That said, the majority of posters here and I need to accept that we don't know our stuff and can't do much more than babble about this sort of thing.
Someone with a masters in mech engineering --> :teacher: <-- RM users.
sinisteridge said:nope. there asimectricle. its thicker on one side and smaller on another
sinisteridge said:nope. there asimectricle. its thicker on one side and smaller on another
Take a step back and put yourself in the engineer/designers shoes.. Most importantly Honda is using the DH bikes to test lighter weight MotoX frames. They have no plans for full production of bikes. Showa is also working on making lighter weight suspension. The bike is designed like a MotoX bike and has the same shock placement.no skid marks said:Ha ha ha,vertical shocks are so stupid like that. You land then the rebound poggoe's you back up again. Yeah tried a bit hard to make it look H-core.Over kill for a bad shock placement design,unless they're trying to perfect thier rebound or somethin whack.
That's the faux horse-link...The non-patented donkey link used by the likes of Trek and Kona. This is what happens when you use a faux horse!bomberboy11 said:This would be the well-functioning horse-link referred to earlier. This one pogo'd too hard.