If you order that, pick me up a REAL MAN SADDLE too.El_Chimichanga said:
Oh no...this is not good.
- Thread starter El_Chimichanga
- Start date
Thats a given for Don, but the Snack pack thing is really funnybiker3 said:
Brian :nuts:Brian HCM#1 said:Thats a given for Don, but the Snack pack thing is really funny
Who the christ actually checks every single bolt with a torque wrench???
I do when my life and limb is depending on it. I don't "torque check" either. I just use it for assembly. Torque checking leads to over torqued bolts and breakage. It was $70 for a Craftsman micro torque wrench and $20 for the beam style for cranks and stuff. Cheap insurance I think.ChrisRobin said:
Mike
With these 888s...I don't see how Marzocchi can turn someone away since so many other people have had the same problem. Why can't they just fix the damn problem so everyone can get on with their lives?...or have they for 2005?
That is awesome. I wish I had a picture of my Go-Ride belt buckle, it's off the hook. Maybe tomorrow.Curb Hucker said:pffft get with the times Kevin, If youre cool like me you already have the Go-ride Snackpak, Go-Ride Liquor, and Go-Ride Hydraulic Oil
Welp, lets hope my lowers don't suffer from it.
I've got an 04' 888RR.
I have a tendency to over-torque **** too... I work on cars, and these forks have the dumbest torque specs I've ever seen. Gimmie FOOT POUNDS damnit, not this Nueton-meter crapola.
I've got an 04' 888RR.
I have a tendency to over-torque **** too... I work on cars, and these forks have the dumbest torque specs I've ever seen. Gimmie FOOT POUNDS damnit, not this Nueton-meter crapola.
No such thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!H8R said:
It seems to me no matter who makes a DH fork it has to have a design flaw or two because we want a affordable DH fork. Then someone like Fox develops a sick DH fork that works and has REAL metal parts in it, and everyone bitches about price.
Sorry, but what does "fork" poof mean? and why is fork in quotes? I'm sure you meant something when you typed that, I just can't figure it out.gus said:
i think he's trying to say it has no faults, despite it being heavier than every single race fork....El_Chimichanga said:
Seen this done to a couple of forks. I really liked the way the 99-02 monsters thru axles worked. So simple yet never failed. Each year manitou looks better and better...
I don't think cast lowers are a good idea at all. Look at their problems: braces break, dropouts break, one-peice non-rebuildable. With older forks, and USD forks, the dropouts, brace (on old monsters for instance) and outer legs are different parts, so if one ****s up, it can be replaced. Same old stroy with cryofit stantions.
problem is a 3 piece structure isnt efficient. You can get alot more strength from a one-piece unit, you just have to design the damn thing right.ioscope said:
cryofit stanchions (pressfit) again are more efficient, just have to get the tolerance right during manufacturing.
Oh what I should have said was race fork. Not Scaled down moto fork that only people who sit down and let their bikes ride them. A fork that fit three things:gus said:
Under 8 lbs
does not leak oil (When regularly maintained)
H/L speed compression
working rebound
don't care where it was made, and isn't a avy Showa parts??? Oh sorry noob.
And people bitch about fork prices now! Yeah lets go back to hand machining fork legs. Then we can have $2100 dollar Mr T's again. Remember back in 96-99 when RS and zokes made the first DC DH forks. Remember why we could not get them. BECAUSE IT WAS NOT COST EFFECTIVE!!!ioscope said:
Aren't stratos forks all machined? I'd show you a close up pic of the lowers, but crap I can't find my fork...I think it is hiding under some used tires, keeping them company.dhtahoe said:
they are pretty stiff for wrap-around / bolt on arch...
And they are just about out of business.Bacardi said:
On Topic: Critical Part=Toque Wrench. How much is your safty and equipment worth??? That's why my bike is treated like the aircraft I work on. If somthing goes wrong I may just not be able to pull over and fix it. Most people think you tighten a bolt till it strips and then back it off a half turn. Or use the longest damn 4mm allen in exsistance. Better yet is when I see folks using the open end of a box wrench trick. It's a 4mm allen!!!!!!!!!!!!! Moron.
Mike my new WB fits 3 of your requirements 
Yep WB I have had great luck with. Things just got a little funny right before they sold to Eko. My first DH fork was a UD-150 (my best fork yet... until the 40 gets here)
Do you ever sleep young man???
Do you ever sleep young man???
Nope, I stay up all night playing halo with Transcenddhtahoe said:
Cast parts will *always* be weaker, and more crack prone than forged or machined parts.
Look at a cast part under a mircoscope, and then look at a forged part under a microscope.
That's why strong car engines have *FORGED* internals. They're MANY times stronger, and can take much bigger stresses.
Bike parts in general are an absolute RIP OFF. You know damn right a derailleur only costs the company about $5.00 each to make, yet they charge $55-$200 for them. (just an example).
I know from an inside source that a 2005 888 costs less than $200 to manufactur, yet they charge $1,500 + for the damned things.
I realize it's a for-profit market, but common... prices are getting out of hand.
(sounds damn near like the insurance & medical insurance companies!)
As a whole, the forks SHOULD have forged or CNC'd lowers. It makes since, and COULD BE cost affective if the manufacturers would step up to the plate, and make REAL forks.
Yes I like my 888RR on my D9, but I'll be the first to admit I HATE cast parts. Casting is the "made in china" way of doing things. Forging & machining is the MAN way of doing things.
-Matt
Look at a cast part under a mircoscope, and then look at a forged part under a microscope.
That's why strong car engines have *FORGED* internals. They're MANY times stronger, and can take much bigger stresses.
Bike parts in general are an absolute RIP OFF. You know damn right a derailleur only costs the company about $5.00 each to make, yet they charge $55-$200 for them. (just an example).
I know from an inside source that a 2005 888 costs less than $200 to manufactur, yet they charge $1,500 + for the damned things.
I realize it's a for-profit market, but common... prices are getting out of hand.
(sounds damn near like the insurance & medical insurance companies!)
As a whole, the forks SHOULD have forged or CNC'd lowers. It makes since, and COULD BE cost affective if the manufacturers would step up to the plate, and make REAL forks.
Yes I like my 888RR on my D9, but I'll be the first to admit I HATE cast parts. Casting is the "made in china" way of doing things. Forging & machining is the MAN way of doing things.
-Matt
Wow... I wish we had the kind of margins they see in the medical, insurance, electronics, or jewlery industries.... So does the guy who runs your LBS...
Think about this..... Walk by a jewlery store in the mall.... You will constantly see 50 to 70% off sales... How do you take that much off a price and still stay in business? Volume? Maybe, but doubtful.... High margin to start with? More likely....
As for your $200 figure to produce a 888... I would love to question your source.... But remember, everybody involved needs to make a profit to stay in business. It starts with Marz Italy and goes all the way to the bike shop you make the purchase from. If someone along the line isn't making money, they end up out of business. Basic econ there.
Brian
Think about this..... Walk by a jewlery store in the mall.... You will constantly see 50 to 70% off sales... How do you take that much off a price and still stay in business? Volume? Maybe, but doubtful.... High margin to start with? More likely....
As for your $200 figure to produce a 888... I would love to question your source.... But remember, everybody involved needs to make a profit to stay in business. It starts with Marz Italy and goes all the way to the bike shop you make the purchase from. If someone along the line isn't making money, they end up out of business. Basic econ there.
Brian
now now, you know thats theres more than just pure manufacturing costs involved.BigHit-Maniac said:
And cast structures are getting better. I wrote a materials paper on thixoformable materials (aluminum mostly) and how they are excreasing their strength, approaching that of billet structures.
really if you want a strong and efficient structure, go with an upside down fork.
Zedro,
I read on the internet that if you stick your front wheel between your legs and grab the bars, it makes for a lot of fork flex with inverted forks....
Brian
I read on the internet that if you stick your front wheel between your legs and grab the bars, it makes for a lot of fork flex with inverted forks....
Brian
So why doesn't Marzocchi just sell $400 forks for a 100% profit direct to consumers?? They'd make millions!!!!Brian Peterson said:
Oh, right, they'd actually have to pay for the services that those other people along the sales chain do...the infrastructure and employees that distribute the forks, advertise them (aside from Marzo's own advertising...look how much advertising is in shop ads and websites), etc. Doing all that would stretch them damned thin and take their focus off making forks, and cut shops out of the equation, which are Marzo's first line of customer support (and protection/sanity-checking for warranty issues), so they'd need to add more of that in, and it'd have to *all* be by phone and mail and raceday booth-not good. So even if it costs a meager $600 per fork for all of these things (including manufacture) in total to do in-house, you now need to sell for $1200 for a 100% return on your investment...
MD
Hey Brian, I know you work for Marz. I heard it from a guy that has good connections with a Marz rep. He owns a bike shop, and shared the info with me. It may be wrong for all I know, but I do know that there's a considerable mark-up on the forks especially. There's definitely a point of high prices, and insane prices. I could see maybe an 888 asking price at around $850, but not $1,500 +.Brian Peterson said:
I apologize if *I* was off, I was just going by what I heard.
And Mike D comes through with basic econ lesson #2.... Thank you, sir.
Plus, another advantage to shop sales... The ability for a customer to go to a shop that has product they can actually see, hold, touch, drool on.... How anxious would you guys be to shell out money for a product if a picture on a website was all you had to base your purchase on? Or just the word of a salesman to tell you how great a product is?
Brian
Plus, another advantage to shop sales... The ability for a customer to go to a shop that has product they can actually see, hold, touch, drool on.... How anxious would you guys be to shell out money for a product if a picture on a website was all you had to base your purchase on? Or just the word of a salesman to tell you how great a product is?
Brian
Um, dude, you're talking to RIDEMONKEY. You really don't want an answer to that question, do you?Brian Peterson said:
How many pre-orders for the original 888s did you have??
(btw, I'm on an 888 now...had my first ride yesterday, and I have to say I'm impressed. I frankly liked my Manitous better in 02 or so...but the 888 is certainly a breed apart. It just eats **** up.)
True. And let's not forget the cost of tooling and machines used in the manufacturing process.Brian Peterson said:
Well, MSRP on an 04 888RC with standard crowns is $1149. Now, what a shop sells it for is their business. If a shop needs to sell a fork at $1500, they may have some high overhead they have to cover.BigHit-Maniac said:
Brian
It sounds like people are getting fixed and variable cost confused. It may only cost $200 for machine time, man hours, and materials, but than you have to factor in the $millions (or whatever) spent developing the product and building the machines.
Its like software or video games. I heard that it cost $40million to develop GTA San Andrea's. It probably costa less than $1 to actaully makes the disc. Price is a function of production costs and estimated lifespan. Forks change too often to allow volume to drop the selling price. Its not like cell phones getting cheaper. Verizon (or whoever) does not have to go out and develop new cell towers and replace them every few years.
Its like software or video games. I heard that it cost $40million to develop GTA San Andrea's. It probably costa less than $1 to actaully makes the disc. Price is a function of production costs and estimated lifespan. Forks change too often to allow volume to drop the selling price. Its not like cell phones getting cheaper. Verizon (or whoever) does not have to go out and develop new cell towers and replace them every few years.
Brian Peterson said:Zedro,
I read on the internet that if you stick your front wheel between your legs and grab the bars, it makes for a lot of fork flex with inverted forks....
Brian
Worse than that...................dirty knees.
And that opens you up to more ridicule than you'll ever get from just riding a flexy fork.
Hey Brian, in all reality, how much have you seen this sort of thing on 888's versus other forks? (i.e Super T with QR20+ as the example sean gave us)
I know that I had a pair of boxxers that stripped out when my buddy at a bike shop was working on them, so it's not like it only happens to 888's. I was just curious if I should put a shim or something in there to prevent this from happening.
Also, have you guys looked into doing what Fox did with the pinch bolts on the 36 and 40? I thought that was pretty trick.
I know that I had a pair of boxxers that stripped out when my buddy at a bike shop was working on them, so it's not like it only happens to 888's. I was just curious if I should put a shim or something in there to prevent this from happening.
Also, have you guys looked into doing what Fox did with the pinch bolts on the 36 and 40? I thought that was pretty trick.
Touche...MikeD said:
Actually, most of our preorders came in the form of EP orders after Interbike. The orders that came in prior were from people who had seen forks being tested in various places....
Glad you like the 888...
Brian
I think it is fair to say that almost every product out has it own little "things" you learn to work with. Too often the train of thought seems to be that if Product A worked a certain way, product B works the same way.El_Chimichanga said:
Brian