Aren't you like 15? What are you going to do, bite them in the knee cap?
Proper Pics of the GIANT GLORY 09!!!!
I may have missed this but if these products were so similar and the dw link came first, how did giant get its maestro tech patented?
Nope it only comes in Beer. Supposedly there filling the downtubes with this new material called "Dank" that helps prevent rock's denting the downtube, this only comes in the Canadian version, and it has to be shipped to the U.S.
I could be wrong, but I don't think Giant has received a patent on the Maestro, they have only applied for one.
:huh: Ouch my brain hurts. I spent most of the day weeding through this thread. All I can say is; I want to be on the jury for this case!
I'm wondering if Dave isn't subscribed to this thread any more. He seems like a cool cat, but I would have to chime back in on this. I guess he's waiting until he can?
I'm wondering if Dave isn't subscribed to this thread any more. He seems like a cool cat, but I would have to chime back in on this. I guess he's waiting until he can?
my guess is that he has better things to do with his time than argue on the internet about his own patent.
wow. it's interesting to see how this whole mess has continued its downhill spiral. in my opinion, giant is at fault without a doubt. firstly, if they're infringing on the dw-link patent, that's not fair. a company of that size must have some decent engineers, maybe those engineers could push for something, i believe it's called progress. copying a design does nothing for the industry. instead of furthering their own suspension design, they're planning on producing what looks to be a re-branded sunday that will put dw out of some potential earnings as a result. dw did the work, giant should pay him if they want to use it. i don't think it's a money concern for them at all, they bring in way too much revenue to use money as a reason for cutting corners.
the thing that scares me is the obvious shortcomings of the patent system. if giant (like trek) is able to push the little guys out of the way like this, especially if it's violating a patent, then i foresee many issues in our future. capitalism, in theory, is "fair" competition that encourages progress. is it just me or is this having the opposite effect?
the thing that scares me is the obvious shortcomings of the patent system. if giant (like trek) is able to push the little guys out of the way like this, especially if it's violating a patent, then i foresee many issues in our future. capitalism, in theory, is "fair" competition that encourages progress. is it just me or is this having the opposite effect?
Obviously... We sure don't have anything better to do...
I think the interesting aspect is going to be that Giant had been selling there maestro bikes for just over two before DW got his patent and Giant previewed the technology before that. Its likely to complicate things a bit for DW if he does wish to try and take legal action.
According to the US Patent Office website, the 1st dw-link patent was applied for / filed Sept 26, 2003.
I agree with this but in all actuality, even the '09 maestro linkage on the DH bike is still not a DW link. It doesn't have the same IC Migration path, Axlepath (not the founding point of DW link patent however), Squat curve, really its not the same at all unless you are judging upon visual similarities.
I definately don't support idea's being copied, but Giant's not doing this exactly. They are flirting with how far they can go it seems, testing DW's nerves almost. Dave sounds like he had a much better oppurtunity working for the defense industry, but he persued his dream of engineering bike products, and for that I have the utmost respect for him. However his experience in the past 10 or so, maybe less, years should serve as a good example of why the bike industry is so shakey. I had similar dreams of designing bikes after college, but I think I will stick with the Defense industy route myself.
Another point is - If the DW link is really a truely good riding linkage design, and I think it is - DW should have no worries about someone jussstttt about copying it (but not quite). The Giant is still NOT a DW link bike, so it will not perform like a DW link bike. Therefore the DW link is still marginally "better" and different, so people will buy the better bike of the two. Maybe hes just worried about it taking a small share of the DW link empire?
The truely superior design will always be preferred and sell better as long as it's priced right (anyone know how much the '09 glory frame will cost?). Or is it the one with better marketing?
The issue in your claim here is that you forget who is buying these bikes. I would wager that a very small percentage of the buyers are actually engineers and a small percentage of the engineers understand how the suspension really works and how it is different from giant's close copy. Bring in the fact that Giant is a huge company with very good marketing and the general public sees the two similar bikes and the they end up picking one based on marketing and suggestions from groms on internet forums.Another point is - If the DW link is really a truely good riding linkage design, and I think it is - DW should have no worries about someone jussstttt about copying it (but not quite). The Giant is still NOT a DW link bike, so it will not perform like a DW link bike. Therefore the DW link is still marginally "better" and different, so people will buy the better bike of the two. Maybe hes just worried about it taking a small share of the DW link empire?
The truely superior design will always be preferred and sell better as long as it's priced right (anyone know how much the '09 glory frame will cost?). Or is it the one with better marketing?
edit: didn't see the last line...boo marketing bull****
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At the end of the day if the Giant looks good and performs well, it will sell to pretty much anyone other than the DW fanclub around here.
Outside of the internet forums (yes there is a whole wide real world out there) the average consumer won't have a clue about alleged patent rip-offs or design copies. They will still rather by a bike from a major company that they trust (Giant) than a fringe company (Evil)
Outside of the internet forums (yes there is a whole wide real world out there) the average consumer won't have a clue about alleged patent rip-offs or design copies. They will still rather by a bike from a major company that they trust (Giant) than a fringe company (Evil)
Fortunately the average consumer of DH bikes are pretty well informed compared to the average bicycle consumer. That should help them see through the sham of lookalike designs like the new Glory.
Ideally yes, but in the real world if the price is right and the performance is there, many fanboys will jump shark. Make it affordable and easy to get and all the sudden consumer morality seems to taper off.
I can't believe you've just read through this thread and feel confident in the accuracy of that statement.
Hype is the patio light for us MTBing moths.
oh how dramatic.
I personally would rather by a bike from Giant, a company that I'm pretty sure will be around for awhile as opposed to the next apparent DW recipient, Evil. Will they be the next company to come out with a DH race bike for a few years then close up when DW takes his holy design somewhere else again?
This patent infringement is still "alleged" is it not?
To end this rumour, Evil will not be using dw-link on any upcoming models.
reading comprehension around here seems to be poor to say the least. I predict that until you have a picture up that clearly shows No dw-link you will remain a player in the dw saga.... but thanks for ending my wonder.
Drama? If I wanted drama I'd just head over to the NSMB boards and watch the drama anytime anyone mentions a dw/e-13 product.
True, there isn't quite the dw fanclub over there as there is here.
Chainstay looks too long. Change it before 2010 or I´ll buy the Sunday.
This thread is full of speculation. In my opinion the Giant design is different. It looks similar but is quite different in it's function. The mid to end stroke of the shock and movement of the links is different. The Giant bikes spend more time in the "sweet spot" of the links movement, where as the Iron Horse Sunday only enters that zone at the end of the stroke. This makes a huge difference in the way the wheel moves over the terrain and the way the suspension reacts to pedaling torque forces. Where Weigle states that his design relies on the IC migration to end between the 2 pivots of the lower link, the Giant bikes IC moves past the floating pivot of the lower link. This drastically changes the way the suspension moves and could be construed as a viable difference in the design making the alleged infringement a non issue.
agreed. i'm not saying it's a dw-link, i'm just saying that if the patent is being at all violated, it's not cool.
It looks like Giant went with the smaller 8.75x2.75 shock for the new bike. A little less travel or higher leverage ratio? Seems like a good way to drop some weight as modern shocks seem to deal with higher leverage ratios quite well.
I can't wait for 2010 to try one out.
so another e-rumor has suddenly come to an end!
I am totally with you, and I am 100% procent sure, that DW would do a much better job in redesigning the sunday than Giant tries to do.
Hopefully IH comes up with something good in the future again.
Dave: Don't become this guy.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54564-2005Feb25.html
You would not be the first to get screwed by the titans of industry in this country.
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family.
Choose a ****ing big television, choose washing machines, cars,
compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good
health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed
interest mortage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your
friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose a
three-piece suite on hire purchase in a range of ****ing fabrics.
Choose DIY and wondering who the **** you are on a Sunday morning.
Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing
game shows, stuffing ****ing junk food into your mouth. Choose
rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable
home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, ****ed up
brats you spawned to replace yourself.
Choose your future.
Choose life.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54564-2005Feb25.html
You would not be the first to get screwed by the titans of industry in this country.
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family.
Choose a ****ing big television, choose washing machines, cars,
compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good
health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed
interest mortage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your
friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose a
three-piece suite on hire purchase in a range of ****ing fabrics.
Choose DIY and wondering who the **** you are on a Sunday morning.
Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing
game shows, stuffing ****ing junk food into your mouth. Choose
rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable
home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, ****ed up
brats you spawned to replace yourself.
Choose your future.
Choose life.
jusst simple......
If giant did get the idea from DW...... they made it A LOT BETTER...now they just need to put SAM HILL on a giant
so suck it up..... go build stuff for NASA if you wana get paid for you ideas..
If giant did get the idea from DW...... they made it A LOT BETTER...now they just need to put SAM HILL on a giant
so suck it up..... go build stuff for NASA if you wana get paid for you ideas..
Why the **** don't they make those anymore?
The new Glory is very different from the Sunday... The bottom link is not a DW or a copy of... It is the same as any other Maestro equipped bike. The DW link is much shorter and is on the inside of the frame as the Maestro is on the outside of the seat tube. Maestro suspension works totally different than DW suspension. The shock position was changed to a more vertical position to get more small bump sensitivity. No one said that the previous generation Glory was using a DW link and the 2010 prototype is using the same bottom link as the first generation Glory. The only thing that has changed is the angle of the shock.
Get over it DW and DW lovers. It is NOT a DW suspension nor was it designed around a DW suspension.
Get over it DW and DW lovers. It is NOT a DW suspension nor was it designed around a DW suspension.
i like the amount of first posts we are seeing in this thread